Question on heaven?

[JesusFightClub]

Historically speaking, many people figured the big entertainment in Heaven comes from looking down and laughing at the sinners in Hell. (No, really. Some might still think this.) Christian charity apparently isn't expected for dead folks.

I have heard this one too. But I like other FJists' opinions better.

What if you went to heaven and your mum, dad, partner and kids all went to hell? It doesn't make any sense you would gloat over them to me. It seems like that would be a sin in itself because it would be a lack of charity?

[Avalondaughter]

I remember being less-than-impressed with the descriptions of Heaven during my trying-to-be-Christian days. I really didn't like the idea of eternity, and liked it less thinking of it just spent praising God.

Then I realized the alternative. Did I want to spend eternity tortured in Hell?

Yes, in the end if was fear that kept me trying to be Christian for years.

[FJismyheadship]

A friend of mine told me she had been to both Heaven and Hell. Heres how she described them.

Heaven was beautiful, full of light, and music... so many different kinds of music. They were all different, but they melded together and sounded beautiful. You had no worries, no cares... you were completely and totally at peace.

In Hell, it was a dark miserable place. Every tear you ever cried, every hurt you ever felt, you felt the burden of them all at the same time, magnified by a thousand.

Admittedly, her description of hell disturbed and scared me.

[theologygeek]

My uncle had a heart attack in the hospital and they were trying to bring him back to life. He went through the tunnel, got to heaven, saw Jesus-the whole bit. The things he saw could not have any explanation other than that he was really in heaven. He had five children, and saw what each one of them was doing at the time, which was confirmed when he discussed it with them. They were not in the hospital at the time. He said pets are in heaven. He saw his dog. He said that Jesus was 100% love and it was a love that he never felt before in his life. Jesus told him he had to go back. He wanted to stay, but he said he would go back because Jesus wanted him to. He asked Jesus if he would be in heaven when it was his time, because he couldn't bear the thought of not being with him for eternity. Jesus said not to worry, and yes, they would be together for eternity. My uncle said that when you are in his presence, you never want to leave because of the love you feel. He saw someone being judged, but it wasn't like people think. The person saw his life and was judging himself. He said he got the impression from the person being judged that works and love are the most important things that we could do on earth. He also said that if he came back down, he was going to go to church every day. He asked which church he should go to and was told to stay at the one he always went to. He attended Catholic church. He said that the flowers were bigger and more beautiful than anything on earth. He also said the colors on earth are just a glimpse of the colors in heaven. Like the blue in heaven is a blue that you don't see here, etc. He said that Jesus had deep blue eyes and shoulder length blonde hair. When he was revived, he remained true to his word and went to church every morning until he died about 15 years later. He told his story many, many times during those 15 years because he wanted everyone to know of his experience. Also, he was not one that people would consider a choir boy. He went to church on Sundays, but he was actually a rebel and a hell raiser. Very good hearted, but rowdy. He had a mouth on him and he liked wildness.

[chaotic life]

I don't even care what Heaven is anymore. I don't care if I understand. I don't care what it looks like. At this point, all I know is that my son will be there soon, and that he won't hurt anymore. When I told him last night, I told him that he will be with Jesus, that he will not hurt anymore and he will be able to laugh and run again.

I do believe there is no suffering there. That's all that matters to me now, to see my son find peace and to pass peacefully, not in pain from this life nor in fear from what lies beyond this. Maybe I'll never reconcile what comes next. Maybe it really doesn't matter. What matters is that we help our son not fear what comes next and the only way to accomplish that is to make it so much better than what is *here* for him.

I guess I'll try to figure out the theology again when he lets go and his siblings want to know what it's like there for him. Or, maybe I'll just let them look into their own hearts and consider that lies ahead for their brother instead.

[Arete]

chaotic life,

May peace be with you. And also with your son. I'll keep you both in my thoughts. :cry:

[theologygeek]

chaotic life, I am so sorry you and your family are going through this.

[OkToBeTakei]

Thoughts and love from a stranger to you and yours chaotic life.

[browngrl]

chaotic life, I don't know the words to say so I will just offer ((hugs))

[JesusFightClub]

chaotic life, my thoughts are with you and yours.

[OddlyAmused]

chaotic life, my thoughts are with you, your son, and your whole family.

[chaotic life]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just realize that while I had all of these theological uncertainties for years, especially after leaving fundamentalism, when push comes to shove, I'll tell my child whatever he needs to hear to not be afraid because it just does not MATTER what comes afterward.

Trying to answer that question is an activity of the living. To let someone die, you have to hold onto the idea that there is something beyond dust after this world, especially when that someone is one who leaves far too soon and the cruelty of that reality supercedes all of the questions you had before that point.

[Justme]

I don't even care what Heaven is anymore. I don't care if I understand. I don't care what it looks like. At this point, all I know is that my son will be there soon, and that he won't hurt anymore. When I told him last night, I told him that he will be with Jesus, that he will not hurt anymore and he will be able to laugh and run again.

I do believe there is no suffering there. That's all that matters to me now, to see my son find peace and to pass peacefully, not in pain from this life nor in fear from what lies beyond this. Maybe I'll never reconcile what comes next. Maybe it really doesn't matter. What matters is that we help our son not fear what comes next and the only way to accomplish that is to make it so much better than what is *here* for him.

I guess I'll try to figure out the theology again when he lets go and his siblings want to know what it's like there for him. Or, maybe I'll just let them look into their own hearts and consider that lies ahead for their brother instead.

I am so sorry for your pain. I hope your family finds peace.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm fascinated with the Bio channel's show, i Survived: Beyond and Back. A lot of the people who "die and come back" describe similar things: hovering over their bodies after dying and being able to look down on them, "knowing" what the people around them were thinking and doing, viewing or re-living parts of their lives, seeing dead loved ones and friends or even "angels", and going down a dark tunnel (which I think might be a black hole, just my opinion based on some of the laws of physics), and ending up in a heaven-type place or different dimension from what we know here (a couple of people went to hell, where they describe being "kept"). The heaven-type place they seem to describe almost sounds like being on morphine, lol. No worries, cares, pain, etc and they feel totally accepted and blissful.

Of course it could all be just a load of crap and when we die nothing happens. No one can really know until we get to that point ourselves, but the stories on the show are fascinating, imo.

I wouldn't believe everything you see on TV! ;)

Seriously, though, there's no big controversy about NDEs. Scientists already have a good idea what causes them. There's no evidence that they're connected to any sort of afterlife.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=peace-of-mind-near-death

[theologygeek]

I wouldn't believe everything you see on TV! ;)

Seriously, though, there's no big controversy about NDEs. Scientists already have a good idea what causes them. There's no evidence that they're connected to any sort of afterlife.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=peace-of-mind-near-death

I don't buy it. My uncle yelled at his daughter for moving bedroom furniture when she was pregnant. He saw it from where he was. Neither a scientist nor a fundie can say that what happened wasn't real. They weren't there.

[Minerva]

I'm sorry to hear of what you're going through, chaotic life.

I like to imagine that what you experience after death is whatever you wanted it to be. So if you're happiest with the idea of there being nothing, you get that. If you had hoped for clouds and harps, you get that. If you just wanted to become a disembodied omniscient being, you get that. And if you wanted an exclusive VIP Heaven where only people you believe are saved end up, you get that and the loss of loved ones that it entails.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Christians and others,

A question is puzzling me. If heaven exists, what would one do up there?

I know from school people would spend their days praising God, and there would be thrones and crowns for all. But would an eternity of this not, well, pall a bit?

I also know about the marriage supper of the Lamb. So people would alternate their time between having their tea and sitting on thrones saying "God is great"...forever?

Do you think other things would be permitted, like sex, or sleeping, or even something like playing video games? I'm honestly not being facetious.

Christians, does it appeal to you or do you simply just believe it is true? And forever seems an amazing concept. Try as I might I can't work this one out.

Thoughts?

I was told we aren't given the ability to understand how it will be, which makes speculation somewhat pointless. I don't think whether or not it is appealing to our current selves (who like to drink beer, lie on a beach, play Angry Birds, whatever) really matters. It's not going to be the same, you're not going to be the same--why would you worry about whether you can do the same things?

For a believer, whatever heaven is like is bound to be better than whatever hell is like, and I'd assume that's good enough for the majority of people.

You can make yourself crazy if you wonder long enough about anything, particularly if you don't have the brainpower or the faith (whichever is required) to get it.

[QAF_Rocks]

I don't buy it. My uncle yelled at his daughter for moving bedroom furniture when she was pregnant. He saw it from where he was. Neither a scientist nor a fundie can say that what happened wasn't real. They weren't there.

Well, you may not buy it, but it's not my job to convince you. I don't believe there is any evidence for the supernatural and absolutely no indication that consciousness can survive the death of the brain. Anecdotes are not evidence. Afterlife mythology is rampant in all cultures, not just ours.

There's plenty of evidence to show what NDEs really are, but people who are immersed in a supernatural worldview and think they can become immortal are probably not open to investigating the subject with a critical eye. People can believe whatever they like (and they do), but I don't think there's a valid foundation for such beliefs.

[Mind UR own uteress]

I definitely don't believe everything i see on TV, but when I hear story after story and they have similarities (It's not just this show but other accounts as well), it makes me wonder. I have a medical degree and i don't think there's really a valid medical explanation for what happens, so in my opinion, these people have really left their dead bodies, gone to another dimension, and returned.

[QAF_Rocks]

I definitely don't believe everything i see on TV, but when I hear story after story and they have similarities (It's not just this show but other accounts as well), it makes me wonder. I have a medical degree and i don't think there's really a valid medical explanation for what happens, so in my opinion, these people have really left their dead bodies, gone to another dimension, and returned.

I don't believe the idea of "another dimension" is supported by evidence, but people can believe whatever they want.

From my perspective, it's rather frustrating, but I chalk it up to living in a supernaturally-infused culture.

[OkToBeTakei]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just realize that while I had all of these theological uncertainties for years, especially after leaving fundamentalism, when push comes to shove, I'll tell my child whatever he needs to hear to not be afraid because it just does not MATTER what comes afterward.

Trying to answer that question is an activity of the living. To let someone die, you have to hold onto the idea that there is something beyond dust after this world, especially when that someone is one who leaves far too soon and the cruelty of that reality supercedes all of the questions you had before that point.

He will not be afraid. Because you told him so. This can never be wrong, there is a time for debate and a time just to say what will bring comfort, hope and love. Too many forget that in their pursuit of intellectual 'rightness' My Sister died aged 41 of cancer, she lived life to the full. She was the one who told my parents at 16 the Catholic church was not for her HA, she paved the way for me. It is a testament to my Irish Catholic parents they accepted that. She lived with her boyfriends (yes plural) She loved her family, her nieces, nephews with a passion that was a religion in itself. She was an exceptionally intelligent high achieving Accountant. When she was dying, she asked my Mum if there was a heaven would God let her in? My Mum said...Of course he will. Why would he not? God will love you, but don't swear when you get there. She looked for that affirmation..and her Mother gave it to her.

[freejoytoo]

Love from a stranger, chaotic life. So sorry :(

[theologygeek]

Well, you may not buy it, but it's not my job to convince you. I don't believe there is any evidence for the supernatural and absolutely no indication that consciousness can survive the death of the brain. Anecdotes are not evidence. Afterlife mythology is rampant in all cultures, not just ours.

There's plenty of evidence to show what NDEs really are, but people who are immersed in a supernatural worldview and think they can become immortal are probably not open to investigating the subject with a critical eye. People can believe whatever they like (and they do), but I don't think there's a valid foundation for such beliefs.

I think that people who believe it happens are very open. When my uncle had the heart attack and told his story over and over, some people didn't believe it happened because it didn't match their own beliefs. Some of the devout Christians said it didn't happen because we don't judge ourselves. A couple of atheists said it didn't happen because there is no heaven. They seemed more close minded than the ones who did believe it happened. I was not there (I was an adult at the time, but not there physically with him to see what he saw), so I am in no position to say it did not happen. There is no explanation that makes sense regarding how he saw what all his kids were doing at the time.

[QAF_Rocks]

I think that people who believe it happens are very open. When my uncle had the heart attack and told his story over and over, some people didn't believe it happened because it didn't match their own beliefs. Some of the devout Christians said it didn't happen because we don't judge ourselves. A couple of atheists said it didn't happen because there is no heaven. They seemed more close minded than the ones who did believe it happened. I was not there (I was an adult at the time, but not there physically with him to see what he saw), so I am in no position to say it did not happen. There is no explanation that makes sense regarding how he saw what all his kids were doing at the time.

I really have no interest in arguing about it. There is no question that NDEs are a real phenomena, but I am unaware of an actual dispute in the scientific community over what they are. There is ample evidence for those who wish to explore the topic. Now, there are people who believe that witches have magical powers. There are shamans who believe they are in contact with spirits. There was a poster on here a while back who claimed to talk to dead people and said this proved there was an afterlife because she experienced it.

If there is verifiable, empirical evidence of a supernatural realm, then I'm sure the scientific community would be interested in hearing about it. James Randi has a million dollar challenge to anyone who can prove supernatural phemenoma under scientific conditions, and his prize is still unclaimed. Someone who proved the existence of an afterlife would be world-famous and would go down in the record books. As yet, this has never happened. If your uncle wants to try to be the first, good luck to him. In the meantime, I look upon claims of gods, ghosts, angels, souls, afterlives, monsters, fairies, and the like with extreme skepticism.

[Little_Eyes]

Chaotic Life, I wish I could give you a hug. I will be thinking of you.