Fundies and Government Aid

[Witsec1]

Also Nomi - so sorry. And also angry. Why can't we as a society do better for people in your situation? A child's growth spurt shouldn't have to cause you all this anxiety. I could rant on and on about a food system that makes junk food affordable and fresh healthy food out of reach of low income people.

[Clementine]

Absofuckinglutely. I think what really gets me angry is the disconnect between the fundie royalty blathering on about every child is a blessing, and the families that are trying to feed a family of 15 on $500. Their stories aren't really heard.

The hypocrisy of the Quiverfullers not living up to their claim of self-sufficiency is annoying, but please be hypocritical rather than let your kids experience hunger and food insecurity. And having more children while on welfare is not really optimal planning in my opinion, I don't think that the fact that you are on welfare gives me any more or less right to criticize you. I don't think anyone has the right to hog resources, whether they can "pay" for them in money or not.

What is really dangerous about Quiverfull is that nothing is regarded as sufficient excuse to limit one's family, not even mom's physical or mental health.

^^ This!

I have often thought about starting a thread about "fundie and poverty". There must be so many big fundie families that are livling in poverty.... but we rarely read about them. (I guess they don't want to blog about starving their kids, accepting help from the government, or they just have better things to do than blogging...)

But really - the whole lifestyle with one just one parent working (and I have seen few fundies who have great paying jobs) and a ton of kids is a recipe for poverty. But I have never seen this discussed anywhere... just a lot of stuff about women are NOT supposed to work outside the home, living debt free, not accepting handouts from the government. It seems more like a facade than real life QF.

I'd love to hear your experience of poor fundie families, online or from IRL.

Nomi - so sorry for your situation!

The thought that crossed my mind when I read about your boy, who sounds a lot like Mr Clementine who was constantly eating like a gracing cow when I met him, is if he gets enough protein and good fat in his diet. I don't know if it's in your budget or not, but an egg for breakfast, an avocado instead of apples, a small tuna sandwich for snack, hummus dip for the celery sticks, a handful of nuts with a piece of fruit etc may fill him better than just carbs like fruit, pretzels, sandwiches and pringles.

Just a thought - my fiancé started to eat less when I convinced him to add more protein and fat to his diet.

[nomi]

I do try to get him to eat protein (hence the PB spoons) but he doesn't really like any of those things. It's very frustrating because I know it takes more of those foods to fill him up and last than a tuna sandwich would. It's also frustrating because he'll like things like boiled eggs for a while and then suddenly they're the most disgusting thing known to man kind. It's hard to get nutritious foods into him at times so I'm just grateful he's eating things like fruit. I wish he liked bananas, those keep me going sometimes. I do sneak ground flax seed and some flax or coconut oils into his food when he's not looking to help boost him up a bit. At meals we usually eat heavy on the protein and I rarely, if ever, serve carbs unless it's something like garlic bread.

[Clementine]

I do try to get him to eat protein (hence the PB spoons) but he doesn't really like any of those things. It's very frustrating because I know it takes more of those foods to fill him up and last than a tuna sandwich would. It's also frustrating because he'll like things like boiled eggs for a while and then suddenly they're the most disgusting thing known to man kind. It's hard to get nutritious foods into him at times so I'm just grateful he's eating things like fruit. I wish he liked bananas, those keep me going sometimes. I do sneak ground flax seed and some flax or coconut oils into his food when he's not looking to help boost him up a bit. At meals we usually eat heavy on the protein and I rarely, if ever, serve carbs unless it's something like garlic bread.

Picky eaters are... frustrating to deal with. I hope you get the aid you applied for, sounds like a very stressful situation you are in.

[geniebelle6901]

Nomi, I was not referring to you or anyone in your situation who clearly needs all the the help they can get (but also clearly not getting). My beef was with this one particular fundie (and those like her) and the fact that she pops out as many babies as she can, but claims disability and the fact that she wants to be a SAHM to because of her religious beliefs to boot. It that isn't a clear cut case of welfare abuse then I don't know what is (other than using fake IDs and receiving benefits under different aliases). I would love to see DHR/CPS called on these fundie families deliberately living in poverty and still popping out babies. It's sickening to think about.

Nomi, I hope one day that you are able to get back on your feet again and provide for yourself and your children like you use to. I sincerely mean that. Until then, I have no problem with taxpayer money going towards your welfare or food stamps.

[mrs]

I don't know what my opinion is on this topic. I have to think about it and further educate myself.

No child should be left hungry.

*My experience, my mother is handicapped and has been eligible for disability since she became an adult. She has NEVER taken a dime. My father is a public school teacher, we were poor growing up. But they would never even consider collecting disability benefits. We were eligible for food stamps too, when I was very young. They NEVER took them. But we had plenty of food b/c my mom was resourceful. She has couponing down to a science. We went without cable, fancy cars, vacations. I asked my mom about not taking the disability benefits, and she said they were for people who were disabled, and she believes she is not disabled.

[Fundilicious]

Wow, this thread blew up since I first posted yesterday. Not that I'm surprised, fundies and the government always make for a good debate.

After reading through the posts I'll throw my thoughts out there, even though I think they have all been discussed well enough.

1. I'm against families who choose to continue to have multiple children when they know they can't afford the ones they have. And I'm not talking about low-socioeconomic families who want to start a family and feel that they shouldn't because they aren't rich. I'm talking about Joe and Jane who have 14 children, and are pregnant again when the 14 they have are going hungry and the measly amount of food stamps is helping them put rice and beans on the table.

2. Now with that said, I'm obviously for children not going hungry. Any one who needs GA should get it. But you bet your britches if you are having 14 children and counting and your applying for food stamps and know perfectly well you can't afford another child, I will shake my head at you. Think of the child for crying out loud. It's just plain selfish to keep having more children that cost more money, when you can't feed the ones you already have. But I guess most fundies are when it comes to over-breeding and not providing (though I know they don't think they are being selfish, just accepting another blessing).

3. Someone, not sure the user, mentioned how most fundies are in this dire situation. Fundie royalty glamorizes their lifestyle. Lucky for the royals they make enough income to actually provide for their children. So their followers follow blindly looking at what they could have. Unfortunately for them, most will continue to live in poverty. Most will need government support. My heart truly goes out to these people. I know for myself I couldn't imagine choosing to have children and knowing that I would severely struggle to clothe and feed them.

And I know it was asked several pages back, but the thread I was referring too on MOMYS was a sticky thread and I believe one that was started in 2008, but was still being posted on. And in case some of you were interested in reading it, I wouldn't waste your time. The thread was sad really. It was mainly women asking lots of questions and obviously wanting a budget written out on how the original poster supposedly fed her whole family on $500 a month. It was never done, and most posts were bump ups (though the woman did share a few favorite meals). I was honestly really interested in reading this budget. I'm really curious how the mom did it. But since she never really shared this information, I suspect it wasn't as cut and dry as she made it seem. I can only hope that the women that posted on that thread, desperately looking for help and encouragement found it elsewhere and are feeding their families.

[Coconut Flan]

Nomi, is there a food pantry near you? That could help out until or even after you get SNAP especially during the summer. And thanks for the summer reminder that I should give some extra since the kids will be home.

[Mama Mia]

Many areas also have a program called "summer lunch" that can help out with food during the summer. It includes free lunch for children, and often recreation activities generally offered at a park or community center.

With all of the budget cuts of the past few years support programs like that have dwindled, but if you do a search you might be able to find something in your area.

Boys and Girls Clubs are often good places during the summer for kids - they are basically free, there is stuff to do all day and usually a summer lunch type program will be available on-site if one exists in your area.

[geniebelle6901]

Sockpuppets are a clear violation of the rules. She should be banned. It's unfair to try to get around ignore lists by creating new accounts just to annoy people. I have no patience for this crap.

FYI...I was never on a universal ban list as far as I know, or at least I wasn't notified of such. I know I was on a few "foe" list, but isn't that different than being on a ban list? I explained what happened. Believe me or not, I don't care. I'm leaving it for the mods to decide whether or not to permanently ban me.

[YPestis]

I can't agree with the "advice" that you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford them. What about unintentional pregnancies? I'm as pro-choice as they come, which means I would be absolutely against attempts to coerce abortion for poor women. It's easy to say that they should just use birth control, but sometimes women get pregnant anyway. And I don't like the way this argument slides dangerously close to claiming that sex is a luxury for the rich.

And the simple truth is that the vast majority of us could never afford to have kids if it weren't for the massive welfare that we all get. It's not just people who get food stamps, Medicaid, and WIC. Most of us got a free education and will get the same for our own children. Most of us couldn't afford to educated our kids if we had to pay for it ourselves. If we were consistent in applying the standard of not having kids until you can afford them, then none of us here would ever have kids.

I can and will snark on people who are neglectful of their kids. I don't believe having kids is a right. But nor do I believe that having kids should be a privilege of the rich.

And no, kids also shouldn't be a privilege of "those who can afford them" either because none of us can afford to give our kids everything we think would be best for them.

I think of welfare the opposite way of most people. It's not about taking money from me to subsidize bad choices made by other people. It's about using my money wisely so that I spend less money in the future. Money spent on children especially leads directly to money saved in the future. It's an investment.

I'm not saying unintentional pregnancies should not be covered or people should not receive welfare if they can't afford basics of life, but I think it's poor planning to bring children into this world when you can't afford to care for the children you already have. If you already have a child or two and require taxpayers to foot the bill for their care, then why is it ok to DELIBERATELY get pregnant again? There's something to be said about self-control and planning. What's wrong with teaching parents to plan their lives so they can afford to provide food, clothing, medical care and housing for their children? Sure, it doesn't always happen, and that's what welfare is for, but welfare should not be a free for all. Welfare should be a stop-gap measure to help people along, not a WAY OF LIFE. Every child should have basics, but why shouldn't every parent be expected, to the best of their ability, to provide those for their children?

My parents were poor when they came to this country but my mom never thought to stay home or to have a second child when they couldn't afford to care for their first one. They didn't think it was right to have others pay for their choice---and having children is most definite a choice for them, not an inevitable event. It's great that this country helps the unintended pregnant women and unemployed families but FDIC and medicaid was not designed as common use. My parents always purchased everything with cash as much as possible. They paid taxes but delayed gratification instead of expecting the magical gov't to swoop in and save them from financial poor planning. I don't think it's fair to EXPECT others to pay out in services because the next person demands the right to have the choice to have kids.

Is it irresponsible to delay buying a larger house for financial reasons? Or to delay buying a newer car to replace to crapper that I have? I have had to delay both because my SO and I are both in medical training. I cannot avoid taking student loans for school and the best planning would still prevent me from saving the six figures in tuition and living cost for med school. However, I try to be judicious with Uncle Sam's money by not having kids, not buying the latest gadgets or a updated car, or living in a house built after 1970. I think parents should be the same way. Having children is something most should experience but there reaches a point where it is irresponsible. Unintended pregnancies should be cared for if the mothers can't, unemployed parents should be helped along. But I've worked in the county hospitals where young 23 year old single mothers taking every welfare benefit coming in with their third unintended pregnancy----and expecting increased in funding to help care for their third child. At some point, the taxpayers is just subsidizing for her poor choices. I would love to have a child too, is it fair that I not have a child so I can become a productive citizen (a doctor) to fund for someone's else right to have a third child before age 25? By delaying children, I will (hopefully) become a more productive citizen. However, if I had to make sacrifices to become productive, is it too much to ask others to show similar responsible behavior?

[geniebelle6901]

Wow. People who are blind have the highest unemployment of any disabled group in Canada, with 70% of them unemployed. I would imagine these numbers are fairly similar in other Western nations. The idea that a person who is blind can just hop to it and get a job especially in this economy is naive at best. And the last time I checked being blind had little to do with one's reproductive system.

On another note, I hope your recovery is going well geniebelle. I hope everything went ok with your surgery. But what happened to your original account?

I still have vertigo & dizzy spells, but they're not as bad as before. Thanks for asking. I had a change of email address, and I had well, I forgot to change it here before canceling my old email account.

[bananacat]

People have always had children when they couldn't afford them. That's why we have things like public schools in the first place. Lacking a social safety net never stopped people from having kids; it only excluded a bunch of people from basic necessities. Honestly I'm much more concerned with the way fundies beat their kids and don't give them personal attention much more than I am concerned about their finances. It's not ok for the Duggars to treat their kids the way they do any more than it is for the Bateses. Just because they have more money doesn't suddenly make it ok. And I really really wish the Bateses would swallow their pride and take the money that is available to them because those kids desperately need it.

[bananacat]

I don't know what my opinion is on this topic. I have to think about it and further educate myself.

No child should be left hungry.

*My experience, my mother is handicapped and has been eligible for disability since she became an adult. She has NEVER taken a dime. My father is a public school teacher, we were poor growing up. But they would never even consider collecting disability benefits. We were eligible for food stamps too, when I was very young. They NEVER took them. But we had plenty of food b/c my mom was resourceful. She has couponing down to a science. We went without cable, fancy cars, vacations. I asked my mom about not taking the disability benefits, and she said they were for people who were disabled, and she believes she is not disabled.

I don't know if you intended it this way, but are you bragging about your mother or suggesting that other people who take disability don't really need it? Just because your mother could make it work doesn't mean that everyone is in the same situation. It is telling though how bad our social stigma is for disabilities when it's considered such a shameful thing that people in need won't accept aid.

[Witsec7]

Mods,

I'll leave this to you to decide. If you think I deliberately created a ghost account, then ban me. I'm sorry I didn't read the rules. If I were attempting to hide myself, I wouldn't have used my former username with just a few numbers on the end. I had a change of email address, and oops I forgot to change that here before closing my old email account. That's what I think screwed my login up. I tried to PM this to a mod rather than posting it here, but the system thinks I'm a new member & the PM feature isn't available yet.

Ignorance is a pitiable excuse. I hope your ass gets banned. Again according to you everyone BUT you has to follow the rules.

[geniebelle6901]

There is a big difference between a single mom of 1 or 2 kids who oops is pregnant again than an abused woman with children getting away from an abusive SO or newly single mom with little or no income vs. a married couple popping out baby after baby and applying for welfare/food stamps. Regardless, no child should go hungry or without medical care. In the case of abuse or popping out kid after kid, I feel DHR/CPS needs to intervene.

[Sola]

FYI...I was never on a universal ban list as far as I know, or at least I wasn't notified of such. I know I was on a few "foe" list, but isn't that different than being on a ban list? I explained what happened. Believe me or not, I don't care. I'm leaving it for the mods to decide whether or not to permanently ban me.

As far as I know Genie wasn't on a ban list. She might have been on a few foe lists, but not banned. I'm inclined to believe her because sockpuppets tend to come with a new username completely different than the previous one and don't tend to admit who they are like Genie did. If her old email account is now defunct then she wouldn't be able to get a password sent out if she had lost that as the password is sent to the old email account. To change that she needs to log in and can't do that without the password. So the only way to get around it would be to make a new account.

Genie, I hope you are well and your surgery went well. But if you start with the fuckwittery that you started with before, you will get called out again. Just so you know.

[Sola]

There is a big difference between a single mom of 1 or 2 kids who oops is pregnant again than an abused woman with children getting away from an abusive SO or newly single mom with little or no income vs. a married couple popping out baby after baby and applying for welfare/food stamps. Regardless, no child should go hungry or without medical care. In the case of abuse or popping out kid after kid, I feel DHR/CPS needs to intervene.

The problem with that is that CPS is very overstretched and being poor wont get you help, let alone a kid being taken into foster care. A kid has to be very severely neglected for CPS to step in simply because they don't have the funds to help all the kids who need it.

[geniebelle6901]

Ignorance is a pitiable excuse. I hope your ass gets banned. Again according to you everyone BUT you has to follow the rules.

I never said everyone but me has to follow the rules, I only stated what happened, and I apologized for not reading the rules. I suppose you have never made a stupid mistake before, huh? But, I'm leaving it up to the mods to decide, and if banned, I will not try to create another account to get around the rules. I'll just stick to lurking as an unregistered guest.

[geniebelle6901]

As far as I know Genie wasn't on a ban list. She might have been on a few foe lists, but not banned. I'm inclined to believe her because sockpuppets tend to come with a new username completely different than the previous one and don't tend to admit who they are like Genie did. If her old email account is now defunct then she wouldn't be able to get a password sent out if she had lost that as the password is sent to the old email account. To change that she needs to log in and can't do that without the password. So the only way to get around it would be to make a new account.

Genie, I hope you are well and your surgery went well. But if you start with the fuckwittery that you started with before, you will get called out again. Just so you know.

Thank you, that was exactly what happened. And duly noted, I expected to be called out on just about anything I say. That's the nature of a snark board. I'm big girl and can handle it. Thanks again for believing me.

[geniebelle6901]

The problem with that is that CPS is very overstretched and being poor wont get you help, let alone a kid being taken into foster care. A kid has to be very severely neglected for CPS to step in simply because they don't have the funds to help all the kids who need it.

I know, and that's what's so sad. We seriously need to re-vamp the American child welfare system because it sucks, badly.

[dawbs]

There is a big difference between a single mom of 1 or 2 kids who oops is pregnant again than an abused woman with children getting away from an abusive SO or newly single mom with little or no income vs. a married couple popping out baby after baby and applying for welfare/food stamps. Regardless, no child should go hungry or without medical care. In the case of abuse or popping out kid after kid, I feel DHR/CPS needs to intervene.

Is there really that big of a difference?

I mean, when you post it this way, of course there is.

But people are stereotyped caricatures of 'single mom', 'oops pregnancy', 'abuse victim', or 'fundie bilker of systems'.

IT's quite possible for the quiverfuller popping out babies to be an abuse (maybe not physical enough to be criminal, maybe physical. Maybe just enough to break someone down so they don't leave) victim, to miscount on the chart and have an 'oops' and be 'essentially' single as their abusive husband is in and out of the picture.

That's the problem when the argument is made w/ 'anecdata' and stereotypes

[freejoytoo]

Everyone is complaining about helping people who have children for the sake of it, but surely their children shouldn't have to suffer for their parents' poor choices? It's not like removing the safety net would stop that from happening. I'd rather a fundie got government aid than let their child suffer out of pride.

[mrs]

I don't know if you intended it this way, but are you bragging about your mother or suggesting that other people who take disability don't really need it? Just because your mother could make it work doesn't mean that everyone is in the same situation. It is telling though how bad our social stigma is for disabilities when it's considered such a shameful thing that people in need won't accept aid.

I was not bragging. I was attempting to explain why I need to think/learn about government aid and families who are quiverfull. I diffidently do not think everyone should follow my families choices. I believe 100% my parents would have accepted them if we didn't have enough food to eat.

I don't know how to put this, they didn't take it b/c the didn't need it, even though it was available to them. If they had needed the help, they would have taken it. Taking food stamps while having plenty to eat, would leave less for other families who were worse off financially and who may not have their basic needs met.

Also,I posted this b/c a few pages back there was general discussion about people who are on disability, should not have children. My mom was born partially paralyzed. She raised my sibling and I. We did things a little differently but she is a great mom.

Disabled people have every right to have children, regardless of accepting/not accepting government assistance.

It is telling though how bad our social stigma is for disabilities when it's considered such a shameful thing that people in need won't accept aid.

My mom doesn't consider herself disabled. My mom is not ashamed of herself and the way she was born.

[emmiedahl]

Everyone is complaining about helping people who have children for the sake of it, but surely their children shouldn't have to suffer for their parents' poor choices? It's not like removing the safety net would stop that from happening. I'd rather a fundie got government aid than let their child suffer out of pride.

I agree completely.

In the US, we do not do a good job of preventing social problems. In fact our system is set up to create them, and then our social welfare systems simply put out fires and keep people alive. When all of out people have any kind of chance at being successful, then maybe we can start judging them for not being so.

I think it is wrong to plan more kids when you have plenty already and cannot afford them. That said, these women are in an abusive religious system that demands they have baby after baby. Family planning is not an option. Working is not an option. They are told to trust in God and then He never comes through, so we have to. Quiverfull creates tragedy the same way a neighborhood riddled with crack addicts and drive-by shootings does. Abba, you are in a dangerous subculture that creates human tragedy. The food stamps are the least of your problems.