Medjugorgje/Fatima

[debrand]

Although this is religious I don't know if it would be considered fundamentalist enough for the Quiver of Snark. If the mods have to move this thread to Quiver of Chatter, I will understand

In a village in Bosnia, six children claimed to see the Virgin Mary. Not believing in her or god, I don't believe that they saw her. However, I've never understood why the Catholic Church deteremined that their visions were false but Fatima were true. It seems to boil down to the fact that the Mary at Medjugorgje underminded the Pope's authority.

http://www.olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml

What Medjugorje Says"God presides over all religions as a king controls his subjects, through his priests and ministers."

–Svetozar Krljevic O.F.M.5

"The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well."

–"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic6

"The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son."

–"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic6

Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?"

"No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son."

–"Seer" Vicka Ivankovic7

"The Blessed Mother has said: 'Tell everyone that it is you who are divided on earth. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me."

[debrand]

Fatima bothers me a lot more then the visions at Medjogorgje. Although the children at Fatima towed/toed? the Catholic line, they seemed to have a desire to suffer that is disturbing in young children.(or anyone for that matter)

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/seers.asp

To free souls from the fires of hell, Jacinta freely undertook sacrifices. In the fierce heat of the summer, she gave up drinking water. As a sacrifice to God's Glory, she offered her afternoon snacks to children even poorer than she. To save souls, she took upon herself the pain of wearing a rough piece of knottted rope next to her bare skin

We are talking about a young child here and I've never understood why Fatima is considered a positive occurrence if it made the kids believe that their sufferings could release people from hell.

I don't believe in either apparation but they have both always fascinated me. Have any of you heard of Medjugorgje? Do you think that it would have been declared a true vision if the six children involved had been more obedient to the pope's authority? I'm not asking if anyone believes in them just if you think that the real reason one vision was accepted as fact by the Church and the other wasn't is because Fatima upholds the Church's stance on the pope's authority.

For some reason, Marian Visions really fascinate me. I have no idea why. My fascination with Mary might tie into my lifelong interest in goddesses in general. I realize that Catholics don't worship Mary but they do have a feminine being that they can turn towards.

If you want to discuss any Marian Vision to discuss, that is fine with me. Do any other religions have the same type of visitations that Catholics claim come from Mary?

[Kishiria]

I know just about everything there is to know about Marian apparitions!

Medjugorge is a hoax. It hasn't come to an end, although some of the visionaries, who are now approaching 50, have said they no longer have visions. All of them have profited financially from the events. At least one now lives in the United States. There is also a terrible mess of Church politics involved.

Fatima is stranger because there did seem to be something unexplained going on--other people heard the "bang" when the Virgin Mary vanished, and it's gotten folded into UFOlogy in fact. Catholic kids have been tormented by how this very judgmental vision must have been real because of the accuracy of the "prophecies". What they fail to mention is that the "prophecies" were revealed AFTER the events they supposedly foretold took place.

I can talk about this stuff all day!

[Deleted10]

Catholic here. Fatima is probably my favorite Marian apparition but I go back and forth on whether Medjugorje is real.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/artic ... jugor.html

I think this is very revealing:

Compare that ^^^ to a similar incident with St. Bernadette, the visionary at Lourdes. During HER apparition, someone held a lit candle under her hand and she didn't flinch. After the apparition was ended, they held it under her hand again and it burned her.

Do any other religions have the same type of visitations that Catholics claim come from Mary?

Orthodoxy, definitely.

[debrand]

Good Kishiria, talk about it all day. :D It is weird, I admit, that I have no belief in the subject but I love reading about Marian apparations.

I wonder if Buddhist or Hindus have visions?

[Deleted10]

Good Kishiria, talk about it all day. :D It is weird, I admit, that I have no belief in the subject but I love reading about Marian apparations.

I wonder if Buddhist or Hindus have visions?

I have a big book of Marian apparitions and I want to say that she has appeared to people who had no idea who the heck she was but I can't cite anything offhand.

[debrand]

I have a big book of Marian apparitions and I want to say that she has appeared to people who had no idea who the heck she was but I can't cite anything offhand.

I meant visiosn from their own religions, not Marian apparations. But your information is interesting also.Although I dont' know if it is true, I had heard that sometimes the bodies of Buddhist saints(is that the correct word?) are rumored not to decay which makes them similar to some Catholic saints. It wouldn't surprise me if other religions had visions or miracles that supported their own faiths.

[Deleted10]

I meant visiosn from tehir own religions, not Marian apparations. But your information is interesting also.

I'm sorry, I totally misunderstood you.

[mirele]

I find all this very fascinating. What's even more fascinating are the histories of the visions that didn't become popular. Here are two off the top of my head that have had book-length studies performed on them.

* Marpingen: Apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Bismarckian Germany by David Blackbourn -- this is about a series of visions by young girls in Germany circa 1870ish and how it fit in with a larger political and social situation where some Catholics thought they were being persecuted by Bismarck's policies.

* Visionaries: The Spanish Republic and the Reign of Christ by William A. Christian Jr. -- this is about visionaries in early 1930s pre-Franco Spain and how these visions fit into the worldview of the supporters of fascism.

This book can be read online! http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpresseboo ... nd=ucpress

I highly recommend both of these books if one wants a non-mythological look of apparitions within the political and social context of their times. At the very least, go look at the cover of the second book, it's great!

One thing that disturbed me about Medjugorje more than anything else (yeah, beyond the fakery, the behavior of the pr and the alternately loquacious and vapid "Virgin Mary") is how the show went on even though there was a raging civil war only a short distance away. Obviously the "Virgin's" powers didn't extend to solving the 1990s Balkans conflict.

[kpmom]

I know just about everything there is to know about Marian apparitions!

Kishiria, do you recall the Mary outline (not an outline exactly, but not sure what to call it), that appeared on the side of a bank window in Tampa, Fl. in early 2000's? I saw it, and it was actually quite lovely and impressive (no, I don't believe in these things). As I recall it was mother-of-pearl colored. Very pretty, and big.

By the time I saw it the Catholic church had co-opted it and was using it to sell holy cards and other trinkets in the parking lot. The bank had to move out because visitors had taken the parking lot over.

The last I heard, the window was broken by vandals.

Sorry to thread jack, it just made me think of that.

[mirele]

Kishiria, do you recall the Mary outline (not an outline exactly, but not sure what to call it), that appeared on the side of a bank window in Tampa, Fl. in early 2000's? I saw it, and it was actually quite lovely and impressive (no, I don't believe in these things). As I recall it was mother-of-pearl colored. Very pretty, and big.

By the time I saw it the Catholic church had co-opted it and was using it to sell holy cards and other trinkets in the parking lot. The bank had to move out because visitors had taken the parking lot over.

The last I heard, the window was broken by vandals.

Sorry to thread jack, it just made me think of that.

It was actually in Clearwater, Florida. I saw it in all its glory in the late 90s when I went there to protest a certain space alien cult. The "Virgin" on the glass was caused by hard water stains from the sprinklers.

Which reminds me of the first time I heard about these types of things in Real Life...I was in law school in Houston in the 1980s and there was a story in the paper and on TV about how people were seeing the Virgin Mary in a cast shadow caused by a neighbor's patio light. The neighbor got annoyed by all the traffic in the area as a result of the news coverage, and unscrewed the light bulb. Voila! no more shadow of the Virgin.

[kpmom]

Which reminds me of the first time I heard about these types of things in Real Life...I was in law school in Houston in the 1980s and there was a story in the paper and on TV about how people were seeing the Virgin Mary in a cast shadow caused by a neighbor's patio light. The neighbor got annoyed by all the traffic in the area as a result of the news coverage, and unscrewed the light bulb. Voila! no more shadow of the Virgin.

You're right, mirele, it was Clearwater (which I guess wasn't all that clear if it caused hard water stains in the shape of Mary).

And I can't tell you how disappointed I am in you regarding the bolded word above. You know it's wah-la!

[debrand]

Most of the apparations seem to center around Mary. Visions of Jesus seem to be less common. Do some people have a need for a mother figure that a male/father god doesn't provide?

I realize that the Christian god is genderless but he is often discussed as if he is male.

[mirele]

Most of the apparations seem to center around Mary. Visions of Jesus seem to be less common. Do some people have a need for a mother figure that a male/father god doesn't provide?

I realize that the Christian god is genderless but he is often discussed as if he is male.

There are visions of Jesus, but they're not as celebrated as those of the Virgin Mary.

I'd point out that from a Catholic point of view (at least per my Catholic boyfriend), you do not have to believe the teachings of a Marian apparition, even an approved one, like Fatima or Lourdes. Of course, I believe he'd also say that in the 1960s when he grew up, believing in Fatima was rather like believing in the Trinity, because of the evil Communist threat, you know.

As for the genderless God thing, I question that. Of course that's what the theologians say, but if you were to try and redefine (for example and here I am going waaaaay out into the weeds) the Trinitarian relationship between God the Father and God the Son in non-familial terms, a LOT of people would come stark staring unglued. They cannot conceive the relationship between God and Jesus as being anything other than a father-son relationship. And don't even suggest that one should image God/Christ as female, these guys will go nuclear. Apparently the fact that Jesus is male is a part of the Christian revelation.

As I explained to my boyfriend (more than once), it is a problem going to church when all the divine rhetoric is couched exclusively in male terms. It's painful, in fact.

[debrand]

There are visions of Jesus, but they're not as celebrated as those of the Virgin Mary.

I'd point out that from a Catholic point of view (at least per my Catholic boyfriend), you do not have to believe the teachings of a Marian apparition, even an approved one, like Fatima or Lourdes. Of course, I believe he'd also say that in the 1960s when he grew up, believing in Fatima was rather like believing in the Trinity, because of the evil Communist threat, you know.

As for the genderless God thing, I question that. Of course that's what the theologians say, but if you were to try and redefine (for example and here I am going waaaaay out into the weeds) the Trinitarian relationship between God the Father and God the Son in non-familial terms, a LOT of people would come stark staring unglued. They cannot conceive the relationship between God and Jesus as being anything other than a father-son relationship. And don't even suggest that one should image God/Christ as female, these guys will go nuclear. Apparently the fact that Jesus is male is a part of the Christian revelation.

As I explained to my boyfriend (more than once), it is a problem going to church when all the divine rhetoric is couched exclusively in male terms. It's painful, in fact.

Yes, if you dare say Mother/Daughter/Holy Ghost people would come unglued and call you a crazed ,communist feminist bent on turning men into whimps and forcing everyone to eat tofu.

A lot of Christians can only relate to god as male.

[Kishiria]

I find all this very fascinating. What's even more fascinating are the histories of the visions that didn't become popular. Here are two off the top of my head that have had book-length studies performed on them.

* Marpingen: Apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Bismarckian Germany by David Blackbourn -- this is about a series of visions by young girls in Germany circa 1870ish and how it fit in with a larger political and social situation where some Catholics thought they were being persecuted by Bismarck's policies.

* Visionaries: The Spanish Republic and the Reign of Christ by William A. Christian Jr. -- this is about visionaries in early 1930s pre-Franco Spain and how these visions fit into the worldview of the supporters of fascism.

This book can be read online! http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpresseboo ... nd=ucpress

I highly recommend both of these books if one wants a non-mythological look of apparitions within the political and social context of their times. At the very least, go look at the cover of the second book, it's great!

One thing that disturbed me about Medjugorje more than anything else (yeah, beyond the fakery, the behavior of the pr and the alternately loquacious and vapid "Virgin Mary") is how the show went on even though there was a raging civil war only a short distance away. Obviously the "Virgin's" powers didn't extend to solving the 1990s Balkans conflict.

To answer an earlier question, the kids who allegedly saw the Virgin Mary at La Sallette didn't know who she was. Bernadette Soubirous initially didn't know who she was.

La Sallette is a very, VERY bizarre apparition that never really caught on, perhaps due to the characters of the visionaries. They were poor kids from bad families. The girl grew up to sort of be a religious ne'er-do-well and the boy became a con man.

Knock was, a few years ago, shown to conclusively have been a hoax using a form of early projector called a "magic lantern", perpetrated by the parish priest.

Pontmontain never really caught on, but featured what I consider the nicest outfit Mary's worn, made out of the night sky itself!

[Deleted10]

Knock was, a few years ago, shown to conclusively have been a hoax using a form of early projector called a "magic lantern", perpetrated by the parish priest.

[mirele]

To answer an earlier question, the kids who allegedly saw the Virgin Mary at La Sallette didn't know who she was. Bernadette Soubirous initially didn't know who she was.

La Sallette is a very, VERY bizarre apparition that never really caught on, perhaps due to the characters of the visionaries. They were poor kids from bad families. The girl grew up to sort of be a religious ne'er-do-well and the boy became a con man.

Knock was, a few years ago, shown to conclusively have been a hoax using a form of early projector called a "magic lantern", perpetrated by the parish priest.

Pontmontain never really caught on, but featured what I consider the nicest outfit Mary's worn, made out of the night sky itself!

La Salette is an example of an approved apparition where the visionaries grew up to be rather disreputable. The boy, Maximin Giraud, is supposed to have endorsed a liqueur called "Salettine." The girl, Melanie Calvat, became a nun but she kept getting kicked out of one order after another. (I counted four before my eyes glazed over.)

However, the greatest controversy was over the "secrets" the visionaries claimed they received from the Virgin. The two gave up the secrets they said were allowed to tell at the time of the apparitions to the local bishop, Melanie Calvat claimed years later there were more "secrets." She was very much against Freemasonry and a number of the French religious hierarchy felt what she said could damage attempts to bring the monarchy back to France. Calvat finally wrote down the secrets in the late 1870s and got them published in a booklet that received the approval (imprimatur) of a French bishop. Another French bishop complained to the Vatican about the booklet, and the word went out that it was to be destroyed. Later, it, and a few other books about Calvat, were put on the Index of Prohibited Books. Some Catholic traditionalists put a lot of stock in what Melanie claimed the Virgin Mary said to her, because they believe the Virgin was predicting what they believe is the present dire state of the Catholic church.

[fluttershies]

Yes, if you dare say Mother/Daughter/Holy Ghost people would come unglued and call you a crazed ,communist feminist bent on turning men into whimps and forcing everyone to eat tofu.

A lot of Christians can only relate to god as male.

The Holy Spirit is sometimes interpreted as female, occasionally as the 'mother' of the Trinity. There's a lot of differing views on the physical nature of Jesus as opposed to that of God the Father, but certainly I've been taught by extremely respected theologians in the Anglican church that the Father does not have a humanoid physical form, and all the Old Testaments appearances of God where He looks human are actually pre-Incarnation appearances of Jesus. When the Father allows Himself to be seen by humans it's either as a pillar of cloud etc or as bright light (as in the case of Moses). I've always understood God walking in the Garden to be Jesus, although that could be questioned since it was pre-Fall and maybe humans could see a bodily form of the Father before that.

This thread is very interesting, I love it :D I'm not a Catholic but a high-ish church Anglican and am fascinated by Mary and Mariology.

[PennySycamore]

There are remarkable stories surrounding the final illness and death of the 16th Karmapa, head of the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. Doctors reported that he refused pain medication even though he was in extreme pain. The Karmapa was kind to the hospital staff and seemed more concerned about about their well-being than his own. When he died, his body, in accordance with Tibetan tradition, stayed in the hospital three days. His heart remained warm during this time.

In the 7 weeks between his death and cremation, his body shrank to the size of a small child. A triple rainbow appeared in the clear blue sky over the monastery. His two dogs died on the day of their master's cremation; they had been healthy. Then the were the relics: His Holiness's eyes, heart and tongue were reported to have rolled to the edge of the stupa where the cremation took place.

[gravelmonkey]

...I've been taught by extremely respected theologians in the Anglican church that the Father does not have a humanoid physical form, and all the Old Testaments appearances of God where He looks human are actually pre-Incarnation appearances of Jesus. When the Father allows Himself to be seen by humans it's either as a pillar of cloud etc or as bright light (as in the case of Moses). I've always understood God walking in the Garden to be Jesus, although that could be questioned since it was pre-Fall and maybe humans could see a bodily form of the Father before that.

That's fascinating.

[ohpotteryourotter]

I've heard of Medjugorgje but I don't understand why it's seen as a fake or how those statements undermine the Pope's authority.

I also see no reason non-believers can't see apparitions. God can reveal himself and others to whomever he likes. I don't understand why there must be some "limit".

I like Our Lady of Lourdes myself.

[Kishiria]

I have not been able to find anything that proves "conclusively" that the Knock apparition is a hoax. Where did you read that? Everything I can find online says that it's still one of the Church-approved apparitions.

[Kishiria]

I've heard of Medjugorgje but I don't understand why it's seen as a fake or how those statements undermine the Pope's authority.

I also see no reason non-believers can't see apparitions. God can reveal himself and others to whomever he likes. I don't understand why there must be some "limit".

I like Our Lady of Lourdes myself.

Medjugorge has a whole host of problems, going from the disobedience of the friars involved, the fact that the visionaries have profited financially from the experience, that none of them have become priests or religious, etc. If you Google "Medjugorge Franciscan disobedience" you will find a lot. I recall at least one has been excommunicated in connection with the way he behaved about the event.

[Deleted03]

I meant visiosn from their own religions, not Marian apparations. But your information is interesting also.Although I dont' know if it is true, I had heard that sometimes the bodies of Buddhist saints(is that the correct word?) are rumored not to decay which makes them similar to some Catholic saints. It wouldn't surprise me if other religions had visions or miracles that supported their own faiths.

I know there are stuff in Islam although it might not be representations, but I remember being at my muslim friends' house and how we saw a picture online of a child, and his ear cartilage was spelling allah in arabic... so yeah I'm sure there are similarities :)