"Judeo-Christian"

[RR88]

Does anyone notice that religious conservatives like to use this term? I've only heard conservative Christians use it; never Jews. I was just wondering what FJ members thought of the term, because I find it to be a horrid phrase.

Judaism and Christianity are two very different religions; the term "Judeo-Christian" implies that they somehow share unique characteristics that other faiths don't, and this isn't really true. In my experience, Judaism has a lot more in common with Islam (in practice, anyway) than it does with Christianity. The phrase seems insulting to both Christians and Jews, conflating their faiths. It seems to me that the term came about as a more politically correct version of the description "Christian". In this way, the term's users can sound inclusive without having to include those pesky Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and others. It seems that most Jewish people consider it a bullshit term (as I do), while the fundies who (usually) like to use it are desperate to tack on "Judeo-" to the word "Christian".

Am I crazy? Please let me know if you agree with my perceptions.

[Arete]

I think that term goes part and parcel with American evangelical christian theology. It has become super important to get as many Jews "saved" as possible. Israel isn't just another country to them, it's the very ground where the apocalypse will be staged, and where the supposed kingdom of God will be established.

Hindus, Buddhists, etc are just garden variety heathens to them. They need Judaism to conform to their vision of armagedon. So that term and aggressive proselytizing goes hand in hand. They actually think those are viable strategies to hasten the coming of the final battle. :roll:

Edit to fix some spelling.

[breadprincess]

I've only ever heard the term to designate religions that share the OT/Torah, and mostly in university classes.

[FaustianSlip]

RR88- Nope, you're not crazy at all. I've had numerous conversations with Muslim friends about how it's depressing that despite the fact that Islam and Judaism have way, way more in common than either of the two has with Christianity, and if it weren't for the Israel Question™, Jews and Muslims would probably spend way more time on our similarities than our differences.

Anyway, turning off "Ebony and Ivory," I've always found "Judeo-Christian" to be laden with bullshit. Typically, it's code for "Christian, but we're including you Jews to pretend we're 'diverse' and 'accepting,' and why are you being so ungrateful as to object to singing 'Jesus Loves Me' at the annual Christmas recital? You should be glad we're not running you out of town on a rail!" I don't know that I've ever used it, myself, except sarcastically (I'm a convert to Judaism, for whatever that's worth).

They need Judaism to conform to their vision of armagedon. So that term and aggressive proselytizing goes hand in hand. They actually think those are viable strategies to hasten the coming of the final battle.

This is a really excellent point. It's part of why I have to laugh a bit at the evangelical crowd who can't shut up about how much they "love" Jews and Israel. Seriously, folks, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

[SayNoToMullets]

When it's used in a political context, it's usually because a Christian conservative wants to make it sound like the extreme values of the Christian right aren't particular to their brand of Christianity, but also shared by all Christians and Jews, and therefore something that a majority of Americans should be on board with. My visceral reaction when I hear it is that I, as a Jew, am only being name-dropped as a token, and other faiths aren't being considered at all. If this is their idea of being inclusive, count me out!

[RR88]

RR88- Nope, you're not crazy at all. I've had numerous conversations with Muslim friends about how it's depressing that despite the fact that Islam and Judaism have way, way more in common than either of the two has with Christianity, and if it weren't for the Israel Question™, Jews and Muslims would probably spend way more time on our similarities than our differences.

Anyway, turning off "Ebony and Ivory," I've always found "Judeo-Christian" to be laden with bullshit. Typically, it's code for "Christian, but we're including you Jews to pretend we're 'diverse' and 'accepting,' and why are you being so ungrateful as to object to singing 'Jesus Loves Me' at the annual Christmas recital? You should be glad we're not running you out of town on a rail!" I don't know that I've ever used it, myself, except sarcastically (I'm a convert to Judaism, for whatever that's worth).

This is a really excellent point. It's part of why I have to laugh a bit at the evangelical crowd who can't shut up about how much they "love" Jews and Israel. Seriously, folks, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

Thanks for your input (and everyone else's)! I love explaining to my Christian friends that Judaism isn't just "Fundie Christianity without Jesus"; sadly, a lot of people think that it is. One example is that Judaism isn't necessarily anti-abortion...they're always shocked when they hear this, but what shocks me is the way some of my politically conservative Jewish friends have latched onto the pro-life movement even though it doesn't really speak to their religious convictions. My Muslim friends, on the other hand, have a far more intuitive understanding of where I'm coming from, and this takes into account the fact that most of them are not huge fans of Israel! (In my experience, many of the people I've met who are so gung-ho about Israel know next to nothing about it. Of course, there are exceptions; I know several conservative Christians who are well-educated about the Middle East.)

My mom's a convert, and her Christian family are lovely/intelligent/open-minded people. None of them have ever used the term "Judeo-Christian"...at least not in my presence.

[Soldier of the One]

I fully agree with the OP and Faustian Slip. The term drives me batty, sometimes.

So yes, I think the term hints at the conflation of two very distinct theologies, doing a disservice to either. It's part of that horrid Supersessionism deal (i.e. all the Jews need to be 'saved').

[FaustianSlip]

I love explaining to my Christian friends that Judaism isn't just "Fundie Christianity without Jesus"; sadly, a lot of people think that it is. One example is that Judaism isn't necessarily anti-abortion...they're always shocked when they hear this....

Indeed. I've shocked more than one friend (pro-life and pro-choice alike, as it happens) when I've mentioned that in actuality, Jewish law would prohibit the vast majority of anti-abortion legislation going around because it potentially endangers the life of the mother. That's not to say that abortion is necessarily viewed as desirable in more conservative (little "c," not to be confused with the Conservative denomination) Jewish circles, but Judaism doesn't at all have an absolute stance on abortion the way fundamentalist Christianity does. Personally, I find the fact that it recognizes birth control and abortion as a somewhat nebulous gray area to be refreshing, but then, I'm a leftist Commie pinko. :roll:

I had a good friend in college whose parents were Christian missionaries overseas who once came to me and asked why, exactly, Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. I was shocked that he didn't have any idea, given that this is someone who is adamantly Christian, whose parents' job is to convert other people to Christianity, and he doesn't even know why the Jewish people didn't accept Jesus in the first place? It was really weird to me. I sent him some links and explanations, and he seemed genuinely surprised that it was all scripturally-based, et cetera. I don't know, maybe he thought Jewish people just don't believe because God didn't intend for us to or out of spite or something. He was a good guy, too, but it still surprises me how little the average Christian seems to know about Judaism, biblical or modern, given that it's theoretically Christianity's parent religion and all.

[cindyluvs24]

I once had a co-worker say, quite sincerely, "Oh you have ten commandments like us!"

[cindyluvs24]

My whole problem is with the need for people to evangelize. My Hindu neighbors do not bring every conversation around to accepting Vishnu or abstaining from beef. My born-again neighbors...they (actually its just the dad) can be talking about the new recycling schedule or whatnot, and just has to turn the conversation. And what's really infuriating is that he wants to keep you there. He actually said to me, right up in my face "No! I'm going to speak and you will stand there and listen." I just laughed in his face and said smiling, "Oh Paul, gotta love you, you're one of a kind. See ya later." He and his kids used to sno blo people's driveways and then "talk" to them but he didn't realize that a lot of the people here have contracted with their lawn companies to shovel in the winter. They were like "what the hell are you doing? Get outta my driveway!" So he didn't get very far. Now Spring is coming and he's going to be outside in his yard every Saturday. I'll have to change my dog-walking route.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks for your input (and everyone else's)! I love explaining to my Christian friends that Judaism isn't just "Fundie Christianity without Jesus"; sadly, a lot of people think that it is. One example is that Judaism isn't necessarily anti-abortion...they're always shocked when they hear this, but what shocks me is the way some of my politically conservative Jewish friends have latched onto the pro-life movement even though it doesn't really speak to their religious convictions. My Muslim friends, on the other hand, have a far more intuitive understanding of where I'm coming from, and this takes into account the fact that most of them are not huge fans of Israel! (In my experience, many of the people I've met who are so gung-ho about Israel know next to nothing about it. Of course, there are exceptions; I know several conservative Christians who are well-educated about the Middle East.)

My mom's a convert, and her Christian family are lovely/intelligent/open-minded people. None of them have ever used the term "Judeo-Christian"...at least not in my presence.

1. Agree the term Judeo-Christian is nonsense in general, but ESPECIALLY when used to exclude Islam. In terms of basic theology, Judaism and Islam are closer to each other than either is to Christianity. If someone really means "Western", they should say that instead.

2. I had a bang-my-head-against-the-wall moment listening to my rabbi's sermon on Saturday. He was wondering why Jews think that it's so bad for a Christian politician to want to bring his faith into what he does, and he specifically mentioned outlawing abortion. Let's just say that there was mass dissent in the women's section. I think it's possible that he's been in enough of a Jewish bubble that he's fooled by some superficial similarities, and truly doesn't realize just how big some of the differences are. The biggest difference, IMO, would be the fact that Judaism has a concept that saving a life takes precedence over almost everything, and therefore allows life-saving abortions up until birth.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Does anyone notice that religious conservatives like to use this term? I've only heard conservative Christians use it; never Jews. I was just wondering what FJ members thought of the term, because I find it to be a horrid phrase.

Judaism and Christianity are two very different religions; the term "Judeo-Christian" implies that they somehow share unique characteristics that other faiths don't, and this isn't really true. In my experience, Judaism has a lot more in common with Islam (in practice, anyway) than it does with Christianity. The phrase seems insulting to both Christians and Jews, conflating their faiths. It seems to me that the term came about as a more politically correct version of the description "Christian". In this way, the term's users can sound inclusive without having to include those pesky Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and others. It seems that most Jewish people consider it a bullshit term (as I do), while the fundies who (usually) like to use it are desperate to tack on "Judeo-" to the word "Christian".

Am I crazy? Please let me know if you agree with my perceptions.

No, you're not crazy - or at least I find myself wondering exactly the same question as you, anyway.

I think a lot of conservative Christians use it to claim some form of legitimacy, as if to say, "well, Judaism is the original religion, and we COME from that, we inherit that historical gravitas, and we've built on it since then but at the core, we're that same Original Group." They read the "Old Testament" and when it's talking about the Israelites and the chosen people, they think, "that's us, that's our ancestors, back then."

Of course then they added the whole Jesus thing, "but that's TRUE, you know, and there's a new covenant now" and all that. They upgraded. Those poor Jews in the current day "just didn't get the memo, I mean, they MEAN well, but they're behind, but we can fix that later..."

But Muslims? "What? They've gone and added crazy blasphemy on top of everything, we can't possibly have anything in common with them!"

Add to that, I agree with you too that people often use it as a way to appear inclusive. They can say "Judeo-Christian" and hope to escape the whole establishment clause thing. They can look open by saying hey, we don't just allow Christian prayers, we'll so graciously allow JEWISH people to lead the prayer too! ("Because of course, they won't say anything contradicts our beliefs right? They'll mention God, and just leave Jesus out, but it's still God, so it's still cool.")

Of course it's a "one way valve" so to speak. I hear "Judeo-Christian values" from conservative Christians (usually socially conservative Christians trying to push an agenda by claiming some sort of "well obviously all history and common sense is on OUR side!!") but never from Jewish people (excepting a very small minority that's trying to ally on some of those social causes).

I mean, if those "ooh, Judeo Christian values!!!" people did a little reading and found out the views about Jesus, you'd think they wouldn't be so quick to... appropriate (and yeah I think that's the right word, and why it bugs me) but hey.

There's lots of people who will say yeah, Judaism has in common with Islam, but because of Jesus, Christianity is actual idol worship and therefore extremely forbidden. Wonder how those "ooh, Judeo-Christian valuuuuuuues" people would feel about that?

[Cran]

I use it very frequently in a scientific context to describe a cultural setting. :think:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I use it very frequently in a scientific context to describe a cultural setting. :think:

Many times, though, the more correct term would be "Western", or "liberal democratic". The purely religious teachings common to Judaism and Christianity also apply to Islam, Baha'i, etc.

[fluttershies]

I've only ever heard the term to designate religions that share the OT/Torah, and mostly in university classes.

Same here, and I've only heard it in criticism of Christianity and Judaism. I choose to use Abrahamic tradition/religion instead, as Christianity, Judaism AND Islam share a common heritage.

[Cran]

Many times, though, the more correct term would be "Western", or "liberal democratic". The purely religious teachings common to Judaism and Christianity also apply to Islam, Baha'i, etc.

Probably, but for a theologian not so much. ;)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Same here, and I've only heard it in criticism of Christianity and Judaism. I choose to use Abrahamic tradition/religion instead, as Christianity, Judaism AND Islam share a common heritage.

In our daily Shit Santorum Says, we have this gem:

Here, before a crowd of more than 600, Santorum said, “I love it because the left says, 'equality, equality.' Where does that concept come from? Does it come from Islam? Does it come from other cultures around the world? ... No, it comes it comes from our culture and tradition, from the Judeo-Christian ethic. "

Found here: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... tian-ethic

[FlorenceHamilton]

I have always ween this from a Jewish point of view. So I totally related to the poster who said, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?" point of view. As I am reading, something else is coming to mind.

If Judaism was the parent to Christianity and this created a New Covenant with god, then the only thing to do with the Jews is to clue them in to the good news. But Islam came later and marks yet a Newer Covenant with god. And that would mean that the coveneant with the Christians would be broken and they are needing god 3.0. So Christians basically lose if they agree to be tolerant.

As a person born Jewish, if I accept that there is an Abrahamic god, I don't see the two new versions as valid. They both look silly, but hey...believe whatever you want because the whole idea that there is a new covenant is simply fantasy. I think this is why many Jews have gotten to the point where they are becoming clser to atheism. If version 2 and 3 are so obviously ridiculous, then maybe version 1 is sort of childish too. After all, the whole OT is written from the vantage point of bronze age people. Maybe we should all give it up and just try to get along better here on earth.

[Arete]

I don't buy that evangelicals use it for the purposes of "inclusiveness" because they sure as hell do not want anything to do with liberal Jews. In fact, scratch just below the surface, and they have plenty to say about liberal Jews, and none of it is good. It's inclusive only when they want to legislate based on verses in the Torah/OT.

[DonnaSmith]

Agree with poster that said this was a way to exclude Islam. Islam and Judaism are much closer than Judaism and Christianity- especially Fundy Christianity. What most (but not all) people mean by this is "White people who act kind of like us."

[chiccy]

I think the term makes some degree of sense, despite its somewhat-arbitrary exclusion of Islam in particular.

I think the fact that the Old Testament is shared scripture is significant. Although Muslims believe a lot of the content of the Old Testament, too, AFAIK, they don't share the same text. Yeah, it's pretty arbitrary, but whatever.

A large part of it might come from the fact that, as we keep seeing, Christians--particularly Evangelical Christians--really want to link themselves to Jews as much as possible. We all saw those Stars of David on the Duggar girls...not to mention the Messianics. I think some of it is about wanting to associate with God's original Chosen ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") and wanting to get closer to Jesus by proxy.

"Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition/heritage" was discussed in my high school European history class. It seems that some historians accept this as a principle. I know far too little about history to speculate on this, but I suspect an intellectual schism between Jews/Christians and Muslims was imagined as a result of certain events (I keep thinking of the Tatars/Golden Horde, for some reason, but I'm sure there is a better example. Maybe the capture of Constantinople?)

[fakepigtails73]

My whole problem is with the need for people to evangelize. My Hindu neighbors do not bring every conversation around to accepting Vishnu or abstaining from beef. My born-again neighbors...they (actually its just the dad) can be talking about the new recycling schedule or whatnot, and just has to turn the conversation. And what's really infuriating is that he wants to keep you there. He actually said to me, right up in my face "No! I'm going to speak and you will stand there and listen." I just laughed in his face and said smiling, "Oh Paul, gotta love you, you're one of a kind. See ya later." He and his kids used to sno blo people's driveways and then "talk" to them but he didn't realize that a lot of the people here have contracted with their lawn companies to shovel in the winter. They were like "what the hell are you doing? Get outta my driveway!" So he didn't get very far. Now Spring is coming and he's going to be outside in his yard every Saturday. I'll have to change my dog-walking route.

Wow, talk about gung-ho prozelitizing! I'd hate to have a neighbour like that.

One of my weirdest proz. exp. happened to me when I was in grade 3. I took the school bus and my driver was this young, blonde, hippie-ish lady. She was very chatty and friendly, so since my house was at the beginning of her route I'd often sit close to her. One day she started talking about how a few yrs back (we were in 1984 or so) she was heavily into drugs, living the same kind of life as Christiane F. lived in West-Berlin (that book and movie were really popular at the time). She'd tell me lots of drugs "war stories"; keep in mind that I was only 8 or 9 yrs-old and I didn't really know what drugs were. Anyways, she'd also mention that every friday nights she'd go to the "Mission" and listen to this amazing preacher who saved her from drugs and debauchery. Her friday revivals happened to be in the same suburban town as I lived with my Dad, so she gave me flyers with bible verses on it and the adress. One day my father asked me what I wanted to do on a particular friday night after school, so I casually said: "let's go to the Mission where Louise, my school bus driver, wants me to go". Dad took one look at the flyer and threw it away. He then gave me a talk about cults, told me the Jonestown story and how sometimes fathers would lose their teenage daughter to a religious cult just like the Mission. Next thing I know from next monday on my Dad would drive me to school for the rest of the year...

A few years later I read an article in the local paper about a cult named "La Mission de L'Esprit Saint" (the Mission Of The Holy Spirit) and how it ruined so many people, spiritually, mentally and financially. A former policeman started that cult in the 1920s in a Montreal suburb. When the net became widespread I spent one afternoon reading everythig I could find on it. They're still at it, ruining lives as before.

I think I'll open a thread on them. They're a cult based on fundie christianity.

I kind of went a bit off topic here; I remember one day at school I saw the bus driver and asked me why I never came to the Mission" I said that my Dad didn't want me too and that it was a dangerous place. She became very angry and her last words to me were : "Your life will be a living hell without Jesus and only us in the Mission can help you live a good life."

I was only 9 yrs-old!!!

Oh, and about "Judeo-Christian"? I also wonder why people use that.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think the term makes some degree of sense, despite its somewhat-arbitrary exclusion of Islam in particular.

I think the fact that the Old Testament is shared scripture is significant. Although Muslims believe a lot of the content of the Old Testament, too, AFAIK, they don't share the same text. Yeah, it's pretty arbitrary, but whatever.

A large part of it might come from the fact that, as we keep seeing, Christians--particularly Evangelical Christians--really want to link themselves to Jews as much as possible. We all saw those Stars of David on the Duggar girls...not to mention the Messianics. I think some of it is about wanting to associate with God's original Chosen ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") and wanting to get closer to Jesus by proxy.

"Judeo-Christian worldview/tradition/heritage" was discussed in my high school European history class. It seems that some historians accept this as a principle. I know far too little about history to speculate on this, but I suspect an intellectual schism between Jews/Christians and Muslims was imagined as a result of certain events (I keep thinking of the Tatars/Golden Horde, for some reason, but I'm sure there is a better example. Maybe the capture of Constantinople?)

I'm not saying that historians don't use it. I'm saying that it's use is bullshit.

Let's look at European History, for example. During the Crusades, there was no "Judeo-Christian" heritage talk. Christians went on crusades against the "infidel" Muslims in Jerusalem, and many decided to kill some infidel Jews on the way there. In Spain, both Muslims and Jews were expelled, and both were subsequently affected by the Inquisition.

All of the Messianic window-dressing in the world doesn't change the fact that there are fundamental theological differences between Judaism and Christianity. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this.

Both Jews and Muslims believe in a single deity with no physical form. Christians believe in the trinity, and that a manifestation of G-d appeared on earth as a human in the form of Jesus.

Both Jews and Muslims believe that we are obligated to fulfill commandments, and are judged are how we do so. Christians believe that Jesus' death atoned for sin so that the primary way of attaining salvation is through belief in Jesus. (Yes, I realize that there are many, many different denominations and slightly different interpretations, I'm just giving the very basic, simple overview)

So, why does it matter to anyone but a theology nerd? It matters because:

- it furthers cultural ignorance if people don't acknowledge that Islam also has Abrahamic roots

- it falsely suggests that Christianity and Judaism have more in common than they do

- it falsely suggests that Judaism and Christianity naturally spawned liberal democracy and human rights, without any acknowledgement of the struggles along the way. The French Revolution, which called for "liberte, egalite and fraternite" was profoundly secular. The Protestant Reformation had a huge effect of the power of the Catholic Church. Judaism went through a 2,000 year period as a religion-in-exile, which completely altered much of its character. Islam is a younger religion. As writers like Irshad Manji have pointed out, it hasn't gone through its Reformation. In other words - its fanatical aspects are often similar to the way that Judaism and Christianity used to be, before external factors forced them to deal with secularism, the Enlightenment, the separation of church and state, equality and tolerance. THAT is why I find Santorum's comment particularly outrageous. There is nothing magical about Judaism and Christianity, but not Islam, that automatically leads to equality, nor is there anything magically preventing them from sliding backward if we attack secularism, separation of church and state, science, etc.

- it conveniently dismisses the notion that the world's largest democracy is actually India. With all of its faults and growing pains (and yes, there are many), India manages to deal with multiple ethnic, religious and linguistic groups within a democratic framework, and its two largest religious groups are Hindus and Muslims.

[Dinorah]

I've heard it used in more or less neutral/academic contexts to basically designate "Western culture that comes from the Old and New Testament rather than from the Greek-Roman world."

However, it's true that it's used by conservatives as a way to cut out Islam and intensify the illusion of Judaism and Christianity having more in common than they really have.

[RR88]

I'm not saying that historians don't use it. I'm saying that it's use is bullshit.

Let's look at European History, for example. During the Crusades, there was no "Judeo-Christian" heritage talk. Christians went on crusades against the "infidel" Muslims in Jerusalem, and many decided to kill some infidel Jews on the way there. In Spain, both Muslims and Jews were expelled, and both were subsequently affected by the Inquisition.

All of the Messianic window-dressing in the world doesn't change the fact that there are fundamental theological differences between Judaism and Christianity. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this.

Both Jews and Muslims believe in a single deity with no physical form. Christians believe in the trinity, and that a manifestation of G-d appeared on earth as a human in the form of Jesus.

Both Jews and Muslims believe that we are obligated to fulfill commandments, and are judged are how we do so. Christians believe that Jesus' death atoned for sin so that the primary way of attaining salvation is through belief in Jesus. (Yes, I realize that there are many, many different denominations and slightly different interpretations, I'm just giving the very basic, simple overview)

So, why does it matter to anyone but a theology nerd? It matters because:

- it furthers cultural ignorance if people don't acknowledge that Islam also has Abrahamic roots

- it falsely suggests that Christianity and Judaism have more in common than they do

- it falsely suggests that Judaism and Christianity naturally spawned liberal democracy and human rights, without any acknowledgement of the struggles along the way. The French Revolution, which called for "liberte, egalite and fraternite" was profoundly secular. The Protestant Reformation had a huge effect of the power of the Catholic Church. Judaism went through a 2,000 year period as a religion-in-exile, which completely altered much of its character. Islam is a younger religion. As writers like Irshad Manji have pointed out, it hasn't gone through its Reformation. In other words - its fanatical aspects are often similar to the way that Judaism and Christianity used to be, before external factors forced them to deal with secularism, the Enlightenment, the separation of church and state, equality and tolerance. THAT is why I find Santorum's comment particularly outrageous. There is nothing magical about Judaism and Christianity, but not Islam, that automatically leads to equality, nor is there anything magically preventing them from sliding backward if we attack secularism, separation of church and state, science, etc.

- it conveniently dismisses the notion that the world's largest democracy is actually India. With all of its faults and growing pains (and yes, there are many), India manages to deal with multiple ethnic, religious and linguistic groups within a democratic framework, and its two largest religious groups are Hindus and Muslims.

You said it more eloquently than I did; thank you.