Fundie Class System

[1004srs]

Okay, this was brought up in another thread. Anyone want to talk about who's top dog in the FUndie CLass System? Bottom of the royalty?

Bill Gothard seems to be top dog.

Duggars?

Bates?

Botkins?

[tehgoobster]

I think that the Duggars are THE fundie royal family. They're certainly fundies with extreme views, but they're also sort of mainstream. Other fundie royal families would be the Phillipses, the Botkins, the Maxwells, the McDonalds, the Bauchams, etc. I'd consider families like the Mortons, the Servens, the Seppis, the Staddons, etc. fundie nobility. They rub shoulders with fundie royalty, but they don't have the same level of influence. Then, at the bottom of the totem pole, you have the commoners.

[Kitten]

But do you think the tv show has scared away potential suitors? I wonder if Josh and Anna had met after the show became a big thing, if Mr. Keller would have been so quick to give his daughter to the Duggar clan? I think that for every fame-crazed fundy girl out there who is lusting after JD and the others, that there is a dad saying no way will I let MY little girl be a part of that zoo.

Without any official statement from them, I'm still pretty sure the Kellers' absence from Anna's life and her births are more from a desire not to be on tv and a refusal to sign those darn waivers than any overt effort by the Duggars/TLC to keep them away.

As for a young man? How in heaven's name could he compete with the golden boy Josh? And would he even be willing to join the compound, or would he actually expect to be allowed to "leave and cleave" with his wife? While I'm sure ratings would go up temporarily over a courtship/wedding, what would be the result if the older girls actually left the family?

Being royal can have its drawbacks as well as its privileges, and this would certainly be one of those negatives. How will any of the other Duggars know whether someone is interested in them for themselves, or for what's in it for the potential spouse, "it" being fame, fortune, or whatever...?

[bananacat]

I think the Duggars are more like fundie celebrities rather than fundie royalty. It's sort of like Brad Pitt compared to Prince William.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Okay, this was brought up in another thread. Anyone want to talk about who's top dog in the FUndie CLass System? Bottom of the royalty?

Bill Gothard seems to be top dog.

Duggars?

Bates?

Botkins?

From growing up in fundie world, I'd have to say that there's really more than one kingdom there. The pentecostal/IFB crowd has its own set of celebs and then there are the Reformed families. Gothard has a little bit of crossover appeal, but he's mostly of the IFB crowd; I'd venture to say that even today a majority of the top dogs of reformed fundie-land are not into that stuff.

I'm not sure of a real IFB pecking order but of Reformed, I'd say that the royalty are:

John Piper(seriously, as a theologian, they put him up with Calvin and Rushdoony)

Denise and RC Sproul, Jr. and family

Doug and Beall Phillips and family

Matthew and Jennie Chancey, and family

James and Stacey McDonald and family

Geoff and Victoria Botkin and family

The nobility:

the Bauchams

the Fuentes (Wise Woman)

possibly Lydia Sherman (?)

the Bradricks

the Morecrafts

Potter the ABD

the In a Shoe family (forget their names)

they might allow the Duggars since they're famous

the Crawfords

the Farrises (head of HSLDA)

And I can think of a few other assorted bloggers and regional leaders who might be considered gentry. The church i grew up in has become a fairly large center of reformed fundie-dom so I suspect more than a few people in it might qualify as landed gentry, but most of these don't blog.

[clibbyjo]

I guess the Maxwell's must be the crazy old step grandmother twice removed who lives in the tower?

[fundiefan]

I guess the Maxwell's must be the crazy old step grandmother twice removed who lives in the tower?

The Maxwell's have set up their own rival court. They venture to the royal court once in a while to visit the Duggar's but otherwise, they are a world unto themselves.

[DamnPrecious]

I think the Duggars are more like fundie celebrities rather than fundie royalty. It's sort of like Brad Pitt compared to Prince William.

That is exactly what I was going to post.

[skankbiscuit]

i wonder what they think of the Duggars. They seem way too liberal for them to hang with! They probably wanted to show the world that the Duggars use their chore packs or something, that is probably the only reason the socialize with them. I can't imagine Teri and Steve ever kissing ourside their bedroom, I wonder what they think of those horn dogs Michelle and JB who are always smooching and being all touchy feely.

[clibbyjo]

i wonder what they think of the Duggars. They seem way too liberal for them to hang with! They probably wanted to show the world that the Duggars use their chore packs or something, that is probably the only reason the socialize with them. I can't imagine Teri and Steve ever kissing ourside their bedroom, I wonder what they think of those horn dogs Michelle and JB who are always smooching and being all touchy feely.

Steve KISSED Teri on the NECK and hugged her several times when we went to see them. They also stood with their arms around each other and made lovey eyes at each other during the canned speech. It was scary.

[twin2]

i wonder what they think of the Duggars. They seem way too liberal for them to hang with! They probably wanted to show the world that the Duggars use their chore packs or something, that is probably the only reason the socialize with them. I can't imagine Teri and Steve ever kissing ourside their bedroom, I wonder what they think of those horn dogs Michelle and JB who are always smooching and being all touchy feely.

Ding, Ding, Ding.

I have no doubt that the current Duggars (maybe not the Duggars of yore), are what Pa Maxwell would concider worldly. The girls show knees, the older children have activities outside the home, they little kids appear to have fun, ect. and we all know what Pa Maxwell thinks of wordly friends/relatives (he did write a five part series on it). However, despite their sweet countenance, and what the preach, the Maxwells are about making money, and associating with the Duggars and having the Duggars endorse their wares allows them to make more money. In other words having worldly friends is bad, unless they increase their bottom line, then no prob. Sorry to break it to you Maxwell fans, but hawking their wares in the name of Jesus is how they make their living. I find nothing Godly about it.

[Feberin]

I wonder what the Maxwells thought of the Howler monkeys.

[Prek teach]

But where do the Staddons fit in? They seem to hobnob with the Bates family and often speak of doing things at "headquarters" and old Bill himself came to their son's wedding (albeit late). They've got to be a bit more than gentry.

[skankbiscuit]

i wonder if the Maxwell girls gave Michelle or the sister moms advice on how to control the children (as they apparently did to Anna Marie's family at the wedding). Of course they probably didn't, they didn't want to offend their meal tickets.

[GenerationCedarchip]

But where do the Staddons fit in? They seem to hobnob with the Bates family and often speak of doing things at "headquarters" and old Bill himself came to their son's wedding (albeit late). They've got to be a bit more than gentry.

I agree with you that they seem pretty high up. The Bates, Staddon, Duggar, etc.. world seems not to intersect the Reformed world quite as much so I never am sure how that pecking order shakes out aside from the Duggars being obvious celebrities.

And then I wonder how folks like the Seven Sister and YLCF women all fit into it....

We should start publishing anthropology papers! :)

[Jessica]

Robert Staddon is one of (THE?) head IT guys for IBLP.

[skankbiscuit]

The Staddons remind me a lot of the Maxwells, I think they are in their own little secluded world but definately royalty

[Marian the Librarian]

This is a great thread. The whole class system/pecking-order thing fascinates me, and reminds me of pyramid schemes like Amway/Quixtar and Herbalife in their heyday -- the select few at the top who have Made It Big, hawking their wares and lifestyles at motivational conferences to the lower-down wannabes. Look at the websites belonging to Kelly Crawford, the AhtheLifers, Plymouth Rock Ranch: they're all franchises for Dougie's VF wares. And Dougie and the Botkins regularly promote one another's swag, conferences, and trips abroad.

PT Barnum was right...there really is a sucker born every minute. And two more to take him!

[celestial]

The nobility:

the Bauchams

the Fuentes (Wise Woman)

possibly Lydia Sherman (?)

the Bradricks

the Morecrafts

Potter the ABD

the In a Shoe family (forget their names)

they might allow the Duggars since they're famous

the Crawfords

the Farrises (head of HSLDA)

Very interesting, thanks! I had always sort of wondered where the In a Shoe family fit in on the fundie totem pole. They are the Coghlans, by the way.

[tehgoobster]

It's the commoners who don't rake in piles of money from their mini$tries who usually suffer from the ill effects of patriarchy/QF, and when things do go wrong, they're told that it's their fault. You can't afford twenty kids? You're probably not a good provider, and you probably don't trust God. Your husband/father treats you like crap? You're probably not submissive enough. You've been sexually abused? You're probably a harlot for tempting a godly man.

On the other hand, fundie royalty who have serious doubts about the movement would be in incredibly difficult positions, especially the fundie royal children who have been held up as examples. For example, can you imagine what would happen if a Botkinette wanted to walk away from it all? They'd have a lot to lose. They're looked up to as examples, so they'd be letting scores of people down. Not only that, but their ministries and financial livelihoods are dependent on their living and believing a certain way. Plus, it's possible that many -- perhaps even most -- of their family and friends would want nothing to do with them if they decided they didn't want to do this anymore.

So yeah, I think the fundie commoners have it the worst in the sense that they suffer the ill effects more frequently, but I also can appreciate how difficult things could be for fundie royalty should any of them ever decide to leave.

[contrary]

Being royal can have its drawbacks as well as its privileges, and this would certainly be one of those negatives. How will any of the other Duggars know whether someone is interested in them for themselves, or for what's in it for the potential spouse, "it" being fame, fortune, or whatever...?

I totally see your point, for myself or another person who isn't buying into this lifestyle...but for a duggar or similar strand of fundie, it's not like they KNOW each other anyway. Celebrity or not, it's an arranged marriage, so what difference does it make if you are suspicious of why your husband likes you? it's not as if YOU get to vet suitors anyway, or as if YOU get the time and space to get to know each other in a meaningful way.

[lilah]

I think the Duggars are too liberal/worldly for most fundie royalty. Besides most of these groups claim they don't watch tv! I think the Duggars have more fans among the fundie commoners. The duggars are good for publicity but I don't know how much they are respected. I recall Ruth conjecturing that some fundies might take Josie's premature birth as a sign from God that the Duggars were being warned/punished. Although she seems to be mostly doing fine, it's hard to say at this point what kinds of impediments or delays she'll have. I think the Duggars will have better luck with courtship once the show is over, it's hard to be modest and also be expected to share the intimate details of your life on screen.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Very interesting, thanks! I had always sort of wondered where the In a Shoe family fit in on the fundie totem pole. They are the Coghlans, by the way.

The father (Perry Coghlan - thanks for reminding me of their last name) is a manager at the warehouse for Vision Forum. From what I gather online and from the fundie end of the family, they are all very well-liked and respected but not real power brokers. They do not attend BCA and I get the impression they are a little more laidback than some of the rest of the VF crowd.

[liltwinstar]

Honestly, it seems to me that there are only two classes: those who ask for money, I mean, "donations to the ministry" (Gothard, Phillips, Botkin etc) and those who send the money in (everyone else).

Of course there are hangers-on, since Gothard/Phillips/Botkin have money and thus have jobs, sorry, ministery opportunities to offer. And there are the handfulls of women they drag out of the woodwork to show how great being a mother of 50 billion is (like the Life in a Shoe lady, V Botkin, Jennie Chancey, etc).

The rest? They read the blogs and send the money. I actually makes me nauseously angry when I think about the way that Gothard/Phillips/Botkin/etc prey upon families on the brink - families who can't afford healthcare or decent food or beds for their children, yet are guilt-tripped into financing trips across Europe, crappy, useless "higher education possiblities" and junk science and "art". It makes my blood boil.

[fundiefan]

Honestly, it seems to me that there are only two classes: those who ask for money, I mean, "donations to the ministry" (Gothard, Phillips, Botkin etc) and those who send the money in (everyone else).

Of course there are hangers-on, since Gothard/Phillips/Botkin have money and thus have jobs, sorry, ministery opportunities to offer. And there are the handfulls of women they drag out of the woodwork to show how great being a mother of 50 billion is (like the Life in a Shoe lady, V Botkin, Jennie Chancey, etc).

The rest? They read the blogs and send the money. I actually makes me nauseously angry when I think about the way that Gothard/Phillips/Botkin/etc prey upon families on the brink - families who can't afford healthcare or decent food or beds for their children, yet are guilt-tripped into financing trips across Europe, crappy, useless "higher education possiblities" and junk science and "art". It makes my blood boil.

Yeah, that. But, in a way it is so indicative of the concept of 'royalty' as a whole. I mean, ruling monarchs made the rules and laws for everyone; peasants and serfs were subjected to the same rigid control as nobility and gentry. The French Revolution is an example of what happens when those with the money truly piss off those without; the Russian Revolution - the American Revolution. All were revolts against the money & society controlling royalty.

So, maybe some day the average fundie families will band together and stage a coup and oust the 'leaders' who are so out of touch with reality? One can hope.