Homeschooling Opinion

[JesusFightClub]

You know what's creepier than the mummy wars on this thread? The class issues.

"Well I homeschooled MY kid and now he can turn down 70k jobs at the age of 15!" "I just laugh at all the state school losers who can't handle life as fantastically as I can and...brace yourselves...have to work for minimum wage! Oh my sides!" Do you not even hear what you sound like?

That is what you sound like.

[Renting with Raggles]

Actually, with a Master's degree, you are in fact, qualified to teach at a college level. In fact, most graduate students, who have yet to earn their Master's, actually teach undergraduate classes! So, with a BA, I could in fact, professionally teach undergrads!

Oh, I know - but you would be teaching in one faculty. I just think that to arrange a comprehensive, individual secondary curriculum across all subject areas, it is necessary that the parent teaching the child has attained the 'next level' of educational experience themselves - or allows their children access to other teachers (through homeschooling coop classes, or community college). That way you can (and you do!) assess various teaching resources/ make informed decisions about including/ rejecting a particular syllabus according to your child's needs and the requirements for further study in several fields. All of the homeschool parents on FJ seem to fit the 'rational' type I outlined above. I was not criticising your method of homeschooling; indeed, I think this is the type of homeschooling that actually works.

What I was trying to say is that JBoob and other fundies seem to blithely assume that their (male) children are perfectly capable of entering professions that require post-secondary education, when they are taught solely by mothers who have never themselves prepared for or experienced tertiary education.

To obtain your BA, you had show competence across all secondary subject areas to even be accepted into university. You also gained skills that are used across the academic curriculum, such as research techniques or essay writing. You are qualified to teach that broad range of subjects that you yourself mastered. You do not attempt to instruct your child past that point (if your degree is in history, you won't try to teach undergraduate engineering).

I'm curious about this. I was homeschooled by my immigrant mother with a highschool diploma, and my highschool drop out dad. I think I ended up with a very decent education, as did my brothers and sister. Three of us have graduated from college and my little brother is a college freshman. We all had excellent GPAs and are now financially very stable. My parents not only had mediocre educations (to be generous), they also homeschooled primarily for "religious" reasons. From what I can tell, my homeschool experience was definitely SOTDRT-style according to the distinctions a few previous posters have made. Is there something I'm missing?

I think that if parents are dedicated to learning, and if their children are interested in subjects that don't conflict with their religious beliefs (I would be interested to know if any of you three are evolutionary biologists, for example, if your parents were YEC), this is possible. I just think that parents like these generally recognise the fact that they haven't had the best education themselves and actively seek ways to help their children do better.

Michelle has her high school diploma, but I have no idea as to whether she attained complete mastery in any subject or whether she just passed. Is she comfortable teaching calculus? Can she set an essay question that really tests her students' analytical abilities? We know that she has never picked up a science textbook ('we didn't come from mush!') and her knowledge of history/ geography seems limited (see any of the UK/ Israel tour). I have no problem with a woman with a high school diploma teaching her children up to year/ grade 7, then turning them over to regular homeschooling coop classes. The defining feature, to me, of the SOTDRT is that these parents refuse to see their limitations.

[Haligh the Liar]

You know what's creepier than the mummy wars on this thread? The class issues.

"Well I homeschooled MY kid and now he can turn down 70k jobs at the age of 15!" "I just laugh at all the state school losers who can't handle life as fantastically as I can and...brace yourselves...have to work for minimum wage! Oh my sides!" Do you not even hear what you sound like?

That is what you sound like.

Word. Like public school, private school, whatever, homeschooling is hugely dependent on/influenced by class. In addition to the funds needed to allow one parent to stay home, the field trips, teams, lessons that homeschoolers tout require money, and having the social circle able to provide advanced instruction in science, music, computers, etc is a function of class and cultural capital as well.

As an individual, I am not of fan of homeschooling, mainly because I believe the insular environment is stifling for both parents and children. Interacting with the outside world is essential to becoming a fully developed adult. (Cue homeschoolers telling me that they leave the house every day for their children to take classes taught by Nobel laureates with other homeschoolers, etc.) Also, I have a hard time getting over the fact that most homeschooling parents are mothers. It seems limiting and a return to idea that women's lives are inextricably bound up in their children's, regardless of how old they are.

As a college instructor, I do not think that homeschooling produces the best results, regardless of whether or not kids are ready to attend at a young age. I have had several homeschooled students who require and request micromanaging- emails about every little thing, freaking out over why an essay earned a 49/50, and so forth. Several of these students also had issues comprehending differences in other students' life experiences, especially when it came to those of different races, classes, and genders. As a sociologist, I am duty bound to acknowledge that it is entirely possible that I have taught many other homeschoolers without being aware of it, as those students behaved just like their peers. Nor does this apply to all homeschoolers, I am sure. However, these are my opinions/observations, which do have adequate support in my experience.

[meda]

You know what's creepier than the mummy wars on this thread? The class issues.

"Well I homeschooled MY kid and now he can turn down 70k jobs at the age of 15!" "I just laugh at all the state school losers who can't handle life as fantastically as I can and...brace yourselves...have to work for minimum wage! Oh my sides!" Do you not even hear what you sound like?

That is what you sound like.

Yes this. Now all the homeschoolers will respond that they aren't that well off, and they had to make choices and sacrifices to homeschool their kids. Unlike those mothers who have to work because they didn't make the same choices, so of course those bad mummy's have kids who work minimum wage jobs after being horribly bullied in the evil public schools...and the cycle continues. These are the threads that make me want to reconsider the fertility treatments. :roll:

[Eliowy]

Just my random two cents on the whole "we home school because of bullies"

There are bullies in home school groups. And honestly it is far worse when you are home schooled. As a homeschooler groups such as LEAH or STAHRA are the people you get to socialize with (if your parents let you) now imagine the entire group of 100 plus people deciding to treat you like dirt for a supposed offense (in my case wearing lipstick). One of the reasons I ended up leaving homeschooling as a junior was that it got so bad my parents were like "we can't have you live like this".

As far as education goes I think it is highly subjective. Certain people are better teachers than others. Same goes with parents. If my mom had to do it again she'd probably put me in school. While the education was up to par (and above actually I got a perfect score on the English part of the SAT) the pure hell of a social life was enough to make the whole thing moot. My younger brother is currently in a trade school for automotive mechanics.

[lizzy]

I think homeschooling like any other educational option can be done well or done poorly. It works for some families and does not work for others. I don't think homeschooling should be another tool used in mommy wars or whatever to justify what makes you a good parent.

QFT.

[snarkbillie]

I'm interested in the opinion of homeschoolers on this thread: what in your mind sets rational homeschooling apart from the SOTDRT?

I am not my children's primary teacher at this point in time. I was when they were in elementary school, but now they have tutors and teachers other than me. Even when they were in elementary school we were in a co-op which gave them a wealth of differing opinions and teaching styles. Their curriculum is secular in nature and aligned with national standards and they are evaluated by outside sources to show mastery of skills. These are the academic differences from SOTDRT. Socially they are not much different than their public school friends, so it's pretty different than SOTDRT.

[emmiedahl]

I also think that a parent can only homeschool successfully when they themselves have passed certain educational milestones. I think that Michelle, with her high school diploma, might be able to take 7 children or so through primary school (K-6) studies. A parent with an undergraduate degree could conduct their child's education by themselves up to the age of 15 or so, people with graduate degrees could probably prepare a child for university studies without much difficulty. The problem with the SOTDRT is that the parents don't know what tertiary education actually looks like - consequently they get swept up in scams like CollegeMinus.

Why does a parent need more training than a teacher? At my son's high school, most of the teachers do NOT have graduate degrees and yet they are (supposedly) preparing him for college. Best high school in my county, btw. I am sure that my younger kids' elementary school teachers have a BA, although you would never know it from reading their writing.

About the classist element: I am educating my kids for future success, not for just theoretical knowledge and enrichment. So if a certain style of schooling produces high earners, yeah, I am interested in it. And I think that parents who work hard to help their children achieve should be proud as hell. The world does not need more Pearls sitting around and living from love offerings. I expect that my children will do something that they love and that they choose a 'something' that can support them. Otherwise they might as well play Xbox all day.

[mnb357]

Also, I have a hard time getting over the fact that most homeschooling parents are mothers. It seems limiting and a return to idea that women's lives are inextricably bound up in their children's, regardless of how old they are.

"Word," as they say. But, I don't think it's a return to this idea. I really don't think the idea ever left us at all, regardless of the issue. We've come a long way, but we still have a long way to go. After all, you don't hear us referring to the "Daddy Wars," do you?

As for my experience with homeschooling, I find that since undertaking it, I actually have more "free" time. I work several evenings/week. I leave at about the time my kids would be returning from school if they attended. When they did attend school, the days I worked were long, disorganized ones. Now, I can have them bustle in the morning, so they are at leisure to do as they please by the time I leave. (Note the husband, also the children's father, whom I love, and is very supportive, plays a limited role, even in this, our modern, liberated household.) Again, we have a long way to go.

[mockingbird]

QFT.

This.

While I don't have much experience with homeschooling, I did go to both private and public schools. I switched to the public school because in my district, the public schools had better opportunities academically. (Move one district over and they were about equal. Those who have said it totally depends on the location and demographics of the location are right. In our state public schools are mostly funded locally.) When I was in the private (religious) school, we would come back the day after the public school religion night classes, and the teachers would blame them for stealing things from our desks and messing up our desks. I remember moving to the public school and realizing the kids in my class would be told that *I* was one of those ebil public school kids. Big awakening moment. Of course, that was unprofessional of the teachers, but the point is that there was some bashing going on and I would say it came from a place of defensiveness, but had no basis. There were misconceptions at the public school too, mostly the slutty-Catholic-school-girl thing. I still have friends who stayed in the private school, and went to private high schools. I haven't seen a big difference in graduates of one or the other, besides I got to take more AP classes. There are some who went to public school who went on to 4-year-undergrad and some who got caught up in drinking or drugs - and same with the private school kids. I don't see the need to be defensive or prove one is better than the other. I really believe it depends on your individual situation and what is best for the kid. We also considered that the public school had a much larger class size (private school was only one class per grade so about 30 kids) and if bullying happened, I would have an easier time finding a new group of friends. I ended up really liking my public school because I found my niche there. It doesn't happen for everyone and that's fine - it's a personal, individual decision and I don't really think one option (public/private/home school) is ALWAYS going to be better than another. There was another girl who transferred to public school the same year as me, and she ended up hating it and had a totally different experience at the same school. So it really varies, and I don't think making generalizations is fair.

[desertvixen]

Since we're all about opinions in this thread, my opinion is that there would be endless prosecutions and lawsuits if people had to "work with others and get over personality conflicts" in the workplace like students have to in schools.

This.

Also agreeing with mnb357 - of course no one ever refers to the Daddy Wars. We all know that if men have issues, they must be important. The Mommy Wars irritate the life out of me because all they do is divide us into camps and make us weak, and make our arguments about improving workplaces, schools, society weak.

[YPestis]

I'm of the opinion that homeschooling works ok up until the middle school years. At that point, some parents may struggle in teaching algebra or English lit. By the time the kid reaches high school, I don't think most homeschooling parents can replicate what most good public high schools have. There are exceptions of course, but I think homeschooling high schoolers typically require outside help. I've heard of parents who do just that. They trade tutoring with other families who are more qualified to teach certain subjects. A good high school will have professionals who teach certain subjects year in and year out. From an educational standpoint, I don't see how homeschooling is equivalent or superior to a good public high school.

My parents are working biologists but have told me they'd feel uncomfortable teaching me classes such as trigonometry, calculus, even physics. It's been so long since they've taken it that they would require a refresher course before teaching any of those courses to me.

Of course, teaching is more than just flipping through a textbook (despite the Maxwell rhetoric). It requires a thorough understanding of the subject matter, the why's of teaching A then teaching B. It needs more than a superficial understanding of the subject. Does any parents qualify in that manner for the myriad of subjects offered at a decent high school?

If parents want to homeschool their kids, I respect their wishes. However, I don't feel my education at my "good enough" public high school is inferior or equivalent to what a few parents offer to their kids in terms of the diversity and quality of classes I received.

[Renting with Raggles]

Why does a parent need more training than a teacher? At my son's high school, most of the teachers do NOT have graduate degrees and yet they are (supposedly) preparing him for college. Best high school in my county, btw. I am sure that my younger kids' elementary school teachers have a BA, although you would never know it from reading their writing.

Wow! In Australia, it's pretty much assumed that state school secondary teachers under a certain age will have a Master's. When I've taught in private schools I've been snubbed by other members of my faculty for 'only' having a Master's. In fact, I know almost all the private schools in Sydney refuse to hire maths teachers without a PhD. There are some real problems with the NSW accreditation process, it's becoming stupidly bureaucratic; however, at least the teachers have successfully navigated the academic system themselves.

For example, I have a BSc, but I would not attempt to design a comprehensive secondary science programme for my child. I simply could not teach all branches of science. I'm not even sure it would be possible to teach to, say, the NSW science syllabus past a certain age without access to proper lab equipment. I do think people who educate at home should either have qualifications themselves or take some active measures to address gaps in their knowledge.

I think also my explanations are sounding strange to Americans because I've been teaching exclusively in systems where students receive a form of high school diploma at age 15 and the last two years of secondary (16-18) function as university prep. It may be better to compare these last two years to your community colleges? The IB, for example, is pretty rigorous (if you want people to take you seriously with a decent mark) and requires students to select subjects across a range of academic areas.

I am not my children's primary teacher at this point in time. I was when they were in elementary school, but now they have tutors and teachers other than me. Even when they were in elementary school we were in a co-op which gave them a wealth of differing opinions and teaching styles. Their curriculum is secular in nature and aligned with national standards and they are evaluated by outside sources to show mastery of skills. These are the academic differences from SOTDRT. Socially they are not much different than their public school friends, so it's pretty different than SOTDRT.

This is the type of homeschooling that I think would be very successful. But this is what fundy homeschooling doesn't do - recognise what their children need to obtain places at university/ preparation for higher wage jobs, which they claim is their goal.

[Feberin]

Interesting topic. I think most homeschoolers do a good job but the ones who don't fail so miserably that they overshadow the sucessful ones. I think the parent's reason for homeschooling helps indicate sucess if Jesus and isolation are your top reasons it's probably going to be SODRT and your kid will be relying on you to keep their car lot afloat.

I see some mentions of private school for bullying relief. My husband and all my siblings-in-law attended twelve years of private Catholic school and the stories they tell are WAY worse then anything that happened at my public school. Personally I found middle school to be the worst for bullying but I did learn from it. I had a boss who used to bullying people quite a bit and if you reacted shed picked on you worse. I was adept at ignoring her comments and not letting them get to me so I became one of her favorites and got some good recomentations from her. Also in my state a master's degree is required within a certain number of years of becoming a teacher. I also thing since upper level teachers have on subject it's easier for a person to be highly educated in math then have to be able to teach all subjects at a high level.

Also just a random note I had a friend in college who started when she was only fourteen years old. She attended public school K-8 then skipped high school. She is the smartest person I know and now attending medical school. I think you'll find high achievers in all types of schooling. When it comes to doing that well I think a big part of it is your IQ. I do think homeschoolers might have more because parents pull out their bored high achievers and there is the flexibility to keep up with the child's educational needs.

[Wolfie]

:) this is a great point. I can't afford private schools, and the bullying is really turning me off the public schools. I have one option left. But I also am not going to run a SDRT and stick my fingers in my ears and go "LA LA LA evolution NEVER HAPPENED"

So, since you were bullied, you think that it goes on like that at every public school? Way to stereotype.

[Samantha]

Wow! In Australia, it's pretty much assumed that state school secondary teachers under a certain age will have a Master's. When I've taught in private schools I've been snubbed by other members of my faculty for 'only' having a Master's. In fact, I know almost all the private schools in Sydney refuse to hire maths teachers without a PhD. There are some real problems with the NSW accreditation process, it's becoming stupidly bureaucratic; however, at least the teachers have successfully navigated the academic system themselves.

In the U.S. teaching laws vary by state. In Michigan, where I am from and earning my teacher certification. You can teach with a B.A. (with teacher certification, you can't teach unless you've went to college for education) but it is expected that you get your Masters within ten years of earning your B.A.

And to teach in college you have to have a minimum of a Masters, at least I think so, that is what one of my education professors said.

[snarkbillie]

So, since you were bullied, you think that it goes on like that at every public school? Way to stereotype.

TBH bullying goes on everywhere. My kids saw bullying happen when they were in public school, they saw it happen at homeschool co-op, they see it happen at church, they even noticed it going on between their cousins at Thanksgiving. It's life. People have personalities and some people are assholes, even when they are kids. There is no way to effectively protect your child from assholes and honestly it's probably better to teach them coping skills than to try to seclude them. I would much rather my kids know when to deal with a difficult person themselves and when to seek additional help than to try to go around behind them to keep them from ever getting their feelings hurt.

[Bella99]

Honestly, my relationship with my daughter would not have been enhanced by home schooling, not to mention that thanks to stagflation, I needed to work. Back when we could have afforded private school, none of the schools I spoke with seemed interested in individuating curriculum for Her Maj (we had been told by an educational psychologist that she needed a program for gifted students - she was reading at a 2nd grade level before age 6). They could fill their classes without the extra effort. We were lucky to get her into a Spanish immersion program at a close by public school that is also a GT magnate. The only way we could have gotten anything similar would have been to shell out 18K a year, if she was accepted - this school takes expats first. As others have said, do your research and pick your poison.

[emmiedahl]

Also just a random note I had a friend in college who started when she was only fourteen years old. She attended public school K-8 then skipped high school. She is the smartest person I know and now attending medical school. I think you'll find high achievers in all types of schooling. When it comes to doing that well I think a big part of it is your IQ. I do think homeschoolers might have more because parents pull out their bored high achievers and there is the flexibility to keep up with the child's educational needs.

I think there are just as many parents who pull out under-achievers, enough to counteract the high achievers. I had multiple friends in homeschooling who pulled out children because they had learning disabilities that were not being adequately addressed.

I am currently public schooling BUT I feel that my time homeschooling was magical. It was a lot of work, but I built a different relationship with my children born out of following passions together. They are all in school now, but that relationship continues. This is especially good with teenagers. I have a stoic 16yo son who will sit on my bed and spill out his heart to me, I just love being so close with him. He told me that most of his friends are not close to their parents the way we are. We were not as tight before homeschooling; it really improved our relationship. And, yes, that stuff is very important in a child's upbringing. He talks to me about his sex life and the stuff people are doing at parties, which allows me to put in a rational adult perspective. I mean, wow. That is really a gift.

I defend public schooling to homeschoolers and vice-versa. I believe strongly that both are very viable options with some benefits and drawbacks, and that parents should be supported in making good choices for their children. I will defend homeschooling to the death (metaphorically) because it made that much difference in my children's education.

[lilah]

So, since you were bullied, you think that it goes on like that at every public school? Way to stereotype.

Believe me private schools are not magical havens from bullying either. If anything they insular and conformist

[fundiefun]

Clibbyjo is an excellent homeschooler from what I have heard with her ideas and activities she puts together for her kids. While the idea of homeschooling seems awesome (right now being childless) I don't think I would realistically be able to due to my health issues and wanting to work to keep my mind stimulated due to BPD.

[emmiedahl]

Believe me private schools are not magical havens from bullying either. If anything they insular and conformist

In my experience (with only two private schools for my kids and one for me, so take it for what it is worth :) ) bullying is worse in private schools. It takes a different form, but it is definitely there. Less punching, more mental torture, but the same result. My children were not the victims, but I saw it happen.

If one of my children turns out gay or outside of gender norms, I will pull them out of school and homeschool them, no matter what inconvenience this poses to my family. Because I don't want a suicidal child who gets picked on every day for something beyond their control. They WILL receive an education without feeling bad about themselves, they deserve that the same way every child does.

[Feberin]

I think there are just as many parents who pull out under-achievers, enough to counteract the high achievers. I had multiple friends in homeschooling who pulled out children because they had learning disabilities that were not being adequately addressed.

I agree with you! I think you find more kids at either end of the educational spectrum in hom schooling. I only mentioned the over achievers since there have been examples given of highly achieving homeschoolers as the proof that homeschooling is the best! I'm glad you had such a wonderful time homeschooling. I really hope that regardless of how he is educated my son and I can have a close relationship.

Personally I plan to send my children to public school. However if we are unhappy with our local school I would consider homeschooling until we are able to move to a better area. Of course a lot will depend on our kids. My son is not quite two but he is an extremely social child who I think would really enjoy having other kids around him all school day. I am planning to do "homeschool" for preschool since I'm going to be home already and good preschools are expensive. Of course I'm also a big beliver that for little kids learning should be fun so it probably won't be very structured.

[emmiedahl]

Feberin, my children really enjoy school and so far it is working for them all. I don't think they are as bad as they are reputed to be. You just have to know the school's weaknesses and fill in the gaps. My children's school is great on basics and not so great on electives, so we do extra social studies and science to make up.

[samithemage]

In general, I loved public schools, despite being naturally introverted and shy. I was able to make a few close friends and join activities that I loved and wouldn't have been available to me as a home schooler, such as marching band. I was teased and bullied some, more so in elementary school than later years though. For whatever reason, even though band wasn't "cool" it gave me a group to belong to and stopped a lot of the worst of the bullying. My mom would have been terrible at homeschooling and would have easily allowed me to become isolated. I think there are so many variables that it's impossible to say which option is "right." It depends on the school system, the child's personality, the parent's personality, etc. No one way is "better" for everyone.