Homeschooling Opinion

[emmiedahl]

Edit to add: if the issue is education for recent immigrants with limited English skills, maybe you should have said that rather than characterizing the entire US public education system as so substandard that kids are not taught Algebra or biology. Washington's exit exam sort of makes the point, that material is on the exam, if I kid fails the exam is he allowed to graduate and given a diploma? If it's a requirement for graduation, why shouldn't a school force the kids to take those classes? Isn't that the point?

I was giving an example of why the state cannot really in good faith cut off funding to a school because they don't follow standards. There are a multitude of other reasons. The exit exam is relatively new, and very controversial because a decent percentage of teens are not passing it. Not just immigrants, but normal suburban kids.

I'm glad so many people here apparently went to schools that offered a diverse range of science and math subjects, but mine did not, nor have any of my children's schools. I know these classes are necessary for college, but a lot of kids still don't take them, maybe because the school does not offer them, sometimes because they are not ready for them when they hit high school. I did some poking around to see if my highly ranked school district with kids going to Harvard is somehow deficient, and just looking around, it seems average, maybe a little above average.

I found this report http://www.mathcurriculumcenter.org/PDFS/HSreport.pdf Five states require only two years of high school math. Several states leave it up to individual districts, with some districts requiring one year only. Does that sound like a solid math education? This report interests me, though, because it says (for example) that Washington State requires 4 years of math and I know that our district only requires three; the school academic counselor told me that it is optional for my son next year because he already has his three years, and the school website shows him having fulfilled his math requirement as of this spring.

http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/re ... equire.htm According to this report, the median required years of science is two for American high schools, and some states require only one. Many require three, to be fair, but I doubt they are laying down specific requirements because just look around. Most high schools are offering lower level science classes like life science and physical science, which are intended to fulfill a science requirement for students who are not up to higher science classes yet. The report notes that this is a huge improvement that has been hard-won. According to this article, http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11079/1133328-84.stm between 5 and 20% of the students studied were proficient at science. Many high school science teachers have very little science education and 13% don't believe in evolution and will not teach it.

1.3% of high school students take latin, so I doubt it is a standard offering. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/ ... 04_057.asp

Most of the states I found in a simple Google search required X number of years of science without a lot of specification of what exactly the child needed to take, so my state is not that atypical. I could not even find statistics on how many schools offered biochemistry. But with so many Americans believing that evolution is a lie, I seriously doubt they had any real science education.

[YPestis]

http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/re ... equire.htm According to this report, the median required years of science is two for American high schools, and some states require only one. Many require three, to be fair, but I doubt they are laying down specific requirements because just look around. Most high schools are offering lower level science classes like life science and physical science, which are intended to fulfill a science requirement for students who are not up to higher science classes yet. The report notes that this is a huge improvement that has been hard-won. According to this article, http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11079/1133328-84.stm between 5 and 20% of the students studied were proficient at science. Many high school science teachers have very little science education and 13% don't believe in evolution and will not teach it.

1.3% of high school students take latin, so I doubt it is a standard offering. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/ ... 04_057.asp

Most of the states I found in a simple Google search required X number of years of science without a lot of specification of what exactly the child needed to take, so my state is not that atypical. I could not even find statistics on how many schools offered biochemistry. But with so many Americans believing that evolution is a lie, I seriously doubt they had any real science education.

Required doesn't always mean that's the norm for specific schools. And minimal standards doesn't mean majority does the minimal. My school required above the minimal standards to graduate and people followed those rules.

There's plenty of crappy public schools out there and I'm sure they pull down the educational 'averages' as reported. However, advanced high school courses isn't some rare specimen found only at selective institutions. I've attended tertiary education in three different states. My college saw 90% of out of staters. I can say with certainty that advanced science coursework including AP chem and calculus is the norm in many schools. Most of these kids came from middle class backgrounds, no fancy private schools!

Biochemistry in high school is really just advanced chemistry. It's counted under "chemistry" by schools. My school also offered zoology but it's classified as 'biology'. The local public school here offers anatomy and physiology, which is classified under 'biology' as well. When schools say they offer bio or chem, they can split the classes into advanced and basic coursework as my school did.

As for latin. Yes, there aren't that many taking it, but that doesn't mean schools don't offer it. I attended high school at a medium sized city. We had latin competitions and most of the local suburban schools sent teams. Just because a small percentage of students take latin doesn't mean a proportionate small percentage of schools offer it. Take it this way, nationwide, only 2-3% of college students are biology majors. How many universities are without a biology department? ;)

I believe I received a good education at an above average public high school and I don't think it was a rare experience. The very fact that public schools have standards means there is a higher floor, even if you argue there is a low ceiling. I'd argue that since homeschooling is unregulated in many states, the teaching quality can vary much more drastically. That is why I think it's important to have some regulation for homeschooling. We remove children from abusive home situations. We have laws stipulating what parents can and cannot do with children. Regulation of home education is merely an extension of that concern. We are appalled (rightfully so) with unqualified teachers. Shouldn't that indignation extend to all teachers, even those that are related to the student?

[dairyfreelife]

Emmiedahl-your school district doesn't sound well. I always thought of Washington as a more progressive state so I am quite surprised to hear the standards there seem so much less than what mine was/still is. My high school offered Latin-two years of it with a teacher who did it through three different schools-via a tv set. It was cool. We had a lot of upper science and math courses, and there are more now. To graduate you have to have four math credits and four science credits now. Was four/three. They offer regular and AP Trig, Pre-Calculus, Calculus, etc. Biology, Physics, Chemistry, etc. You have to take one math above Algebra II, even if it's just college prep math that goes over all the prior maths again. They taught evolution basics. Biology discussed it a lot and upset some students and parents, but they didn't stop teaching it. And this was the Bible Belt, mid-Atlantic mix Southern state that is heavily Christian (and I am considering Catholics Christians obviously). It's one of the poorest states in the country and was in a recession long before the current one so it does shock me that a state like yours is so low in its standards.

When I was going to be teacher, it took almost five years to get a four year degress with all the classes they required. Within five years of getting a BA, it's required for them to take classes until they get their MA. After that, it's not required, but highly recommended to continue classes to stay on top of things. There are good and bad and just okay teachers still. It's hard to get rid of a bad teacher. I only had two professors who had a MA and taught and were just assistants and often without real offices. To be a full professor for most majors it's required to have a Ph.D in the subject they will be teaching.

[JesusFightClub]

I am intrigued by the diversity of replies here and am learning a lot about the US system :)

I went to a Scottish state school (public school means something different here). My old school consistently ranks poorly in the Scottish league tables for schools, one of the reasons for this is it is the school in my county which officially has the duty to take in excluded kids from other schools.

I did all three sciences for two years, then you have to pick one at least (mine was chemistry). I did not study evolution, but I would have had I taken biology instead. It was compulsory to take maths, English, at least one science and at least one language when it came time to pick courses. I was advanced language track (what would this be in America?) so I did two languages instead of the usual one, in my case French and German. And all kids did algebra.

It was fairly unusual for kids from my school to go to top ranked universities - indeed when one of the girls I knew got a place at Oxford studying law it made the local papers ;) A lot of people I knew joined the army or did technical stuff like agriculture or mechanics.

I think I got a pretty good education and while some of the teachers were dire some were brilliant (my English teacher was eccentric but fantastic and really inspired even the difficult class I was in, my History teacher likewise, my Computer Science and Geography teachers were great too). I still have, albeit schoolgirl, enough French and German to read newspapers and I have worked translating documents from German to English for an anarchist group, as well as French to English. I look back on my school days and while it wasnae Eton, it wasnae bad :)

With the homeschool option, my mum considered it for about a week. She "supervised" my homework to get a taster. This ended with her throwing a textbook at me and screaming "Why are you so bloody stupid? What have I done to have such a stupid child?" I love my mum dearly but at that moment we both realised homeschooling wasn't, er, the ideal option ;)

[HOTW]

I pulled my kids from th elocal school after nothing was doen about the violence against my son. He has now completed his GED concluding his HS a year+ early than his class, is beginning college in a few days and is intedning to go itno th ecomputer forensics field in Criminal Justice. He knows way more than many peope about computer, built his own machine at 14/15 and became a much happier kid when he was pulled from the local school. He would have done his GED at 16 but the NYS law won;t allow a homeschooler to take it until 17, which I think is BS. Also considering he took it cold without any prep(he wasnt allowed to go to "free" prep classes because he was not an adult) he scored pretty darn good on it.

My younger DD is now studying Psychology as a sophomore and is doing better in math because she can take her time to get to know the aterial whereas in school she was always "behind". Math is her worst subject yet right now she is averaging an A-.

Homeschooling is not fo reveryone. You have to want to be with your kids. You have to understand their deficits and be willing to work with them. I have found the best thing about homeschooling is knowing my kids better and being able to knock dwon some of the indoctrination that was pressed upon their minds from the school system. When a parent in one of his activites found out he was homeschooled she said He didn;t believe in Evolution- he gave her the whole theorum of the slits of the lineage we theorized(3 types of human skulls, 3 types of great Ape skulls etc) and he left her reeling and apologizing for making an assumption..LOL

We have greta debates at the dinner table I do not ever ncourage my children to be blind thinkers, and they can communicate with anyone in any age group. A lot of locals know my kids and enjoy meeting up with them and chatting.

[Austin]

As far as Latin is concerned, a majority of parents in our district just won't support it. The high school offered it and when money got tight, parents turned to that "stupid dead language that my kid will never use" offering as a money-drainer. Of course, given my own experience with Latin in high school, I vehemently disagreed, but those who agreed with me were in the minority. When cuts came, it got slashed. The school now offers French, Spanish, German, and ASL (ASL comes under attack from time to time by the same sorts of parents).

But there are lots of things that kids benefit from that are not offered in school. If a parent really wants a kid to learn latin (or learn gymnastics or art history), there are other ways to make that happen. The schools are not meant to be the be-all end all for a child's holistic education - that's a parent's responsibility. Kids spend about 14% of their time in school by the time they're 18. I'd say what goes on the other 86% of time is extremely important.

[snarkbillie]

I believe in supporting public schools (mine, by the way, offered Latin, German, biology, physics and chemistry). I guess I can understand why homeschooling would be an attractive option for certain parents, especially depending on their kids' personalities, but I wish the same effort would go into supporting/improving our public schools and their teachers so that everyone could benefit. My mom was a public school teacher for many years and the frustrations she had to deal with... but maybe that is an idealistic view. Anyway I mostly agree with dairyfreelife and Renting with Raggles, who both expressed their opinions much better.

I would submit that it's not an either/or decision. While my kids are homeschooled I do try to improve our local schools as well. I go to school board meetings and I volunteer with a literacy program at the school down the way. I could not leave my children in a school where they weren't being adequately challenged.

[AmyP]

I think one posters original point about homeschooling should be repeated in light of this discussion. There is incredible variability in the US school system. Some schools are fantastic, others are awful, some are just OK. Some counties have really high standards, but within a county that has high standards, there can terrible schools with low standards. I live in a county like that and I listen to the stories from my public school friends. There is a great deal of variability from school to school. Some parts of the United States have awful school systems. Other parts of the US have better school systems overall. One persons pulic school experience, good or bad, is not a reflection of the system as a whole. It is a valid reflection of how good or bad public school can be in any one situation. Homeschooling is an individual choice, based on a families individual opinion of the school system as they have experienced it, and the individual needs of their child.

Homeschooling gives parents a viable option when their school system, or their individual school, is just not working out for whatever reason.

[HOTW]

The schools in our district offer only Spanish or French, they have droped all other languages. At oen time they tried to have ASL but the teachers they had weren't certified so all the kids who had been taking it lost all the credits for those eyars and had to retake a new language to meet state requirements!

[fakepigtails73]

Homeschooling is fine if the parents know how to write; I've seen some that are barely litterate.

[Austin]

Homeschooling is fine if the parents know how to write; I've seen some that are barely litterate.

:shock:

[Conuly]

Homeschooling is fine if the parents know how to write; I've seen some that are barely litterate.

*Literate.

But it's some sort of internet law that criticizing other people's ability to read and write means you must make at least one small error in the process. :lol:

[JesusFightClub]

IIRC fakepigtails is ESL anyway, which negates all complaints :)

[ilovetchotchkes]

*Literate.

But it's some sort of internet law that criticizing other people's ability to read and write means you must make at least one small error in the process. :lol:

Murphy's law. Murphy VS Jones 1990. :-)

My evidence that the public schools STINK around me is that they require 2 years of English, 2 years of a foreign language, 2 years of history and 4 years of gym class. While fitness IS important, I don't see how 4 years of English/history IS NOT. :( However, I was SO lucky to go to a private parochial school tuition free as my dad had taught there for 20+ years where it was the reverse, gym for only 2 years! Nobody who was a junior/senior took gym unless they took it as an elective because they were on the track/basketball/vollyball/softball team and used it for supplementary practice. While only 2 years of a foreign language was an option at the school I attended, I took all 4 years of Spanish in high school and was able to kick butt on the entrance exam in college and placed higher in the placement exams and had I only taken 2 years, I would have been SOL as I had an insanely hard time as it was with college Spanish.

However, the 2 extra years of English definitely helped me tremendously, as my roommate who had gone to the same district I would have been in struggled to write the same papers I had. :-( I wish I had gone back to school sooner. My grammar and writing skills have really started to swirl the drain lately despite the fact that my BA is in ENGLISH. I might take an "enrichment" class at the local community college to bring me back up to par. :P

[AmyP]

Murphy's law. Murphy VS Jones 1990. :-)

My evidence that the public schools STINK around me is that they require 2 years of English, 2 years of a foreign language, 2 years of history and 4 years of gym class. While fitness IS important, I don't see how 4 years of English/history IS NOT. :( However, I was SO lucky to go to a private parochial school tuition free as my dad had taught there for 20+ years where it was the reverse, gym for only 2 years! Nobody who was a junior/senior took gym unless they took it as an elective because they were on the track/basketball/vollyball/softball team and used it for supplementary practice. While only 2 years of a foreign language was an option at the school I attended, I took all 4 years of Spanish in high school and was able to kick butt on the entrance exam in college and placed higher in the placement exams and had I only taken 2 years, I would have been SOL as I had an insanely hard time as it was with college Spanish.

However, the 2 extra years of English definitely helped me tremendously, as my roommate who had gone to the same district I would have been in struggled to write the same papers I had. :-( I wish I had gone back to school sooner. My grammar and writing skills have really started to swirl the drain lately despite the fact that my BA is in ENGLISH. I might take an "enrichment" class at the local community college to bring me back up to par. :P

TWO YEARS OF ENGLISH??? I wish I thought you were joking. The two years of history doesn't surprise me much because my "advanced" diploma in one of the top rated school systems in the country, in a major metropolitan area, reaquires only two years of "social science" of which history was an option, but not required at all. I took geography and AP government. In geography we focused on the book Ecotopia which divided the United States into separate countries based on ecosystems. There was very little actual geography taught.

English was required every single year for every student. There was no way out of that. You only needed three years of math and two years of science, but english was mantantory.

[Katiebug]

Our local high schools require the following as minimum graduation requirements:

26.25 credits or more, including:

English – 4 credits

Mathematics – 3 credits

Social Studies – 3 credits including 1.0 in United States History and .5 in Civics

Science – 2 credits

Physical Education – 2 credits

Health – .25 credit

Vocational Fine Arts – 1 credit

Students also have to pass the English and math sections of the state assessment test (unless exempted or given alternative assessments via an IEP).

For college-bound students they recommend:

English—4 credits

Mathematics—4 credits

Science—3 credits

Social Studies—3 credits

World Language—3 to 4 years of the

same language

Fine Arts—Recommended

They offer far more AP classes than the high school that my husband and I attended: Art, English Language, English Lit, Calculus AB and BC, Statistics, Music Theory, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Environmental Science, Psychology, US History, and World History. World Languages offered are French, Spanish, Italian, and Latin (4 years of each, and two tracks for all but Latin).

There's a College Career Pathway program with the local community college where students can earn credit for taking specific course sequences in graphic design, early childhood education, accounting, and IT. There's also the vo-tech option to learn a trade while in high school.

I'm pretty sure our kid(s) will have more substantial and probably better learning opportunities through our public school system than what we could provide at home. I have a bachelor's degree in engineering, most of a master's in engineering, and a master's in management, and my husband has a bachelor's in business and is going for his MBA in the future - I don't feel competent to teach my own children!

Plus, we both have to work outside the home and that's not really conducive to homeschooling. We are considering private school for kindergarten only, because our public schools offer half day K with a very limited number of spaces in an expensive extended day program. We would basically be paying the same for the extended day program as we would for private, full day Kindergarten plus before/after care, so why not have our children go to private schools for K? Half day K sucks for working parents...

[Islandmom]

1st time poster, long time lurker, and typing on my phone so please forgive any typos!

We homeschool and I am a firm believer in public schools. I had a great experience in school (well besides mean middle school girls, but I believe that taught me how to stand up for myself). We live on an island in the middle of the Bering Sea in Alaska and for us, homeschooling was basically the only decision we could make. Our school district is known for having some of the best scores in the state, but it is small... One elementary, on middle and high school combined. We have a daughter that would have entered K already working anywhere from 4 years ahead in math to 7 years ahead in reading. Her personality is one that when she is not challanged she seeks to create her own and would easily be labled as a trouble maker, so we sought help and placement from the school and requested a meeting from the dev. psy. ( who flys in 2 times a year). His first words to me were "you need to move". Not an option for us at the moment lol!

The school refused to follow his recomendations and I was told by the principal "we will never becable to teach her anything academically." Thecso called gifted teacher for the district (yes one teacher for the whole district) told me sometimes gifted kids just have to be miserable! Needless to say our choice was made for us.

I hate the reputation homeschooling has because of the SODT fundies. I work hard to give my child what she needs. While I have a masters and my husband a doctorate, I do not feel equiped yo handle higher level math. She is close to getting past my comfort level already and she is only 5. So next year she is taking online classes through Stanford's EPGY program. I think most homeschool parents know what they can and can't handle and they seeks resources needed to help their children succeed.

As for school offerings, I went to a magnet school (test to get in), and our highschool did offer calculus, several foreign languages, but no latin or biochem... Trust me I would have been all over that one! One of my interest then and still, is genetics. The district here, one of the main complaints is the lack of foreign language. They offer one choice. For 2 years they offered Spanish, then they switched to russian, with no option for the kids to continue Spanish who wanted to. We don't have the availability of teachers here to give a well rounded background to graduating students. It's a hard place to get teachers to come to.

As for social, the school ignored the developmental psy. advice that DD should be grade skipped just for social and emotional reasons even if the fit would still be behind academically for her. So we seek out as many different things as we can on such a small island. I even started homeschool art classes so there was something else for her to do.

Anyway, I am glad I have the ability to post now. I will do an intro post later today and I look forward to getting to know everyone. I just thought I'd share a glimpse into a not so well known corner of americian school life. Things work really different when you are 800 air miles from the road system lol!

[Conuly]

IIRC fakepigtails is ESL anyway, which negates all complaints :)

Indeed, her English is much better than my... ANY other language!

Let's see what the NYC graduation requirements are, since that's what everybody is talking about:

http://schools.nyc.gov/RulesPolicies/Gr ... efault.htm

One credit = one term, so let's see...

2 years world history, 1 year American history, 1 term each economics and "participation in government"

3 years science, and that has to be at least one year of life science (biology or marine biology) and one year of physical science. Every term must include lab work.

3 years math

2 terms in arts related classes

4 terms gym, 1 term health

7 terms of electives

1 year foreign language

That's not half shabby, although since they made regents* required for EVERYBODY instead of just the smarter kids the standards in the regents tests have declined, to the surprise of absolutely nobody. (Well, everybody acts surprised, but honestly, I predicted this would happen the year they phased out RCTs, back when I graduated!)

We have a separate set of "career and technical requirements" as well, but as near as I can tell they still have to do the same academic courses, it's just that their electives get eaten up with their cte courses. Which basically makes going to a technical school harder, I guess.

*Mandatory tests at the end of nearly all high school courses in New York State. That's about all you need to know about them.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Don't know if anyone posted this yet.

(Seven lies about homeschoolers)

[stacyf]

Just want to say hi to islandmom. As someone who grew up in the bush and was homeschooled/boardingschooled/villageschooled I feel your pain. I was lucky enough to have a village sanitary engineer to get me through my calculus class and for that I am grateful, I just don't know how the village schools can keep up with a full college level curriculum and think that integrating homeschool/internet school is really the only alternative. There were 24 kids from k-12 in the school I attended.

[Islandmom]

Thanks stacyf. It is definitly different here and I agree, I don't know how the village schos think they can handle it. We have more kids than what you grew up with, but it is a difficult enviroment that is cetain. I still haven't written an intro post.... Busy weekend but the snow and 80 mph winds have moved in tonight which should keep us inside tomorrow... So maybe I will get a chance.

Again, excuse typos... Typing on phone lol

[clibbyjo]

Thanks stacyf. It is definitly different here and I agree, I don't know how the village schos think they can handle it. We have more kids than what you grew up with, but it is a difficult enviroment that is cetain. I still haven't written an intro post.... Busy weekend but the snow and 80 mph winds have moved in tonight which should keep us inside tomorrow... So maybe I will get a chance.

Again, excuse typos... Typing on phone lol

Islandmom, after your first post I had to go look up islands in the Bering Sea. I liked that you could "see tomorrow" over in Siberia and the "whale boneyards"were something I have never seen. It looks very cold,even in summer.(I watched a video where everyone had winter clothes on and they said you will get frostbite if out too long). For about a minute, I thought about looking for a homeschool exchange program for the summer my kid could go see what it was like as that is not a culture we are likely to find here. Then I figured the kids would have to be out of there before winter or I doubt they could leave until spring.(Is this the case with remote Arctic areas in winter?)

[freejoytoo]

Just want to say hi to islandmom. As someone who grew up in the bush and was homeschooled/boardingschooled/villageschooled I feel your pain. I was lucky enough to have a village sanitary engineer to get me through my calculus class and for that I am grateful, I just don't know how the village schools can keep up with a full college level curriculum and think that integrating homeschool/internet school is really the only alternative. There were 24 kids from k-12 in the school I attended.

Oh wow,what was that like? I'm very curious as to what it must be like to grow up in the bush.

[lilah]

The school system where I work has these requirements

Art 0.5 credits

Electives 3.5 credits

English 4.0 credits

Health and Physical Education 1.5 credits

Mathematics (including Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and Upper Level Math) 4.0 credits

Music 0.5 credits

Science (including biology, 2 lab sciences, and 1 other science) 4.0 credits

Social Studies (including World History I & II, State History, US Government, US History) 4.0 credits

World Languages 2.0 credits

Total 24.0 credits

My school system has a rather low rate of graduation and many schools struggle to keep students on level. Given how many of the students come to high school at times several years behind on reading or math, and having not been exposed to a lot of social studies/world languages/science because the elementary and middle schools are really pressured to just focus on math/reading to keep kids nominally on level it's not a surprise we have a low rate of graduation.

And on the opposite end of the spectrum At one point I was volunteering at the district's academic magnent school and I noticed they had some of the health and PE requierments farmed out to internships and self study because they didn't have time to teach that on top of the AP/IB classes that students were taking.

[starfish]

Hi Island Mom and welcome! It sounds like you have a very interesting life.

Also wanted to chime in and say I graduated from a large suburban school district in Texas that offered 4 years of Latin, college calculus, biochemistry, physics, that type of thing. We also had a foreign language club that traveled to the countries of the language you were studying over spring break. Pretty cool, I thought. For Latin, you went to Italy.

Where I live now does not offer Latin. I'm been thinking about on-line Latin or something for the little Starfish. But French for the school stuff. Unlike me, the little Starfish can mimic the sounds and accents so I think they can master it. Any ideas, FJ friends, for an on-line Latin course or other suggestions for learning the dead language?