Homeschooling Opinion

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think there are just as many parents who pull out under-achievers, enough to counteract the high achievers. I had multiple friends in homeschooling who pulled out children because they had learning disabilities that were not being adequately addressed.

I am currently public schooling BUT I feel that my time homeschooling was magical. It was a lot of work, but I built a different relationship with my children born out of following passions together. They are all in school now, but that relationship continues. This is especially good with teenagers. I have a stoic 16yo son who will sit on my bed and spill out his heart to me, I just love being so close with him. He told me that most of his friends are not close to their parents the way we are. We were not as tight before homeschooling; it really improved our relationship. And, yes, that stuff is very important in a child's upbringing. He talks to me about his sex life and the stuff people are doing at parties, which allows me to put in a rational adult perspective. I mean, wow. That is really a gift.

I defend public schooling to homeschoolers and vice-versa. I believe strongly that both are very viable options with some benefits and drawbacks, and that parents should be supported in making good choices for their children. I will defend homeschooling to the death (metaphorically) because it made that much difference in my children's education.

That's awesome - but it's also a reflection on the sort of person that YOU are. If homeschooling consisted of bible readings on the hellfire awaiting gays and other fornicators, I doubt your son would be so open. It's also possible that if homeschooling consisted of a frustrated parent dying to have a break from the kids, and kids who resented the constant nagging and occasional use of "are you an idiot?" by the parent, that the child would have a less-than-wonderful relationship with that parent.

[freejoytoo]

Isn't a bit worrying that in some states a parent can teach their child just about anything, including that evolution is the work of the devil? If you're going to homeschool I think you should be able to prove that your child a) understands basic science and b) that you are a decent teacher. I would be fine teaching a child up until the age of secondary school but beyond that, no way. I don't have sufficient understanding of certain subjects and also don't know how good a teacher I would be.

Everyone is talking about different strokes for different folks and how some homeschoolers are the most well-rounded, intelligent people out of their peers. That's great. I'm not disputing that. But I don't think it's right that people like Michelle get away with teaching their children out of workbooks and that everything in the Bible is literally true. She clearly doesn't understand science for one and probably doesn't understand many others, so why the hell is she getting away with being the teacher of her children?

[emmiedahl]

Isn't a bit worrying that in some states a parent can teach their child just about anything, including that evolution is the work of the devil? If you're going to homeschool I think you should be able to prove that your child a) understands basic science and b) that you are a decent teacher. I would be fine teaching a child up until the age of secondary school but beyond that, no way. I don't have sufficient understanding of certain subjects and also don't know how good a teacher I would be.

Everyone is talking about different strokes for different folks and how some homeschoolers are the most well-rounded, intelligent people out of their peers. That's great. I'm not disputing that. But I don't think it's right that people like Michelle get away with teaching their children out of workbooks and that everything in the Bible is literally true. She clearly doesn't understand science for one and probably doesn't understand many others, so why the hell is she getting away with being the teacher of her children?

Why? To be fair, my kids will not be learning about evolution in school. There are probably a lot of children in their classes that are being taught at home that evolution is the work of the devil, and nothing in school counter-acts that. They have all had some really sucky teachers, ones who cannot spell, ones who scream at the class, it happens and we deal with it. If we are going to demand that homeschooling parents all be 'decent' at their jobs, we need to demand that public school are so as well. And we can't; it is really hard to measure a teacher's abilities, and thus really hard to identify and re-train bad teachers.

I don't think homeschoolers should be held to a higher standard than public schools.

[freejoytoo]

I'm saying they should be held to the same standard. Both type of schools should provide decent, well-rounded types of education. Even if a public-schooled child is being taught the evolution is the devil at home presumably he or she is actually being shown the theory at school and giving them an opportunity to actually think about it. Of course you get some public teachers who aren't any good but I was focusing on this aspect of homeschooling because it really bothers me that some families seize it as an opportunity to totally isolate their children.

[emmiedahl]

I'm saying they should be held to the same standard. Both type of schools should provide decent, well-rounded types of education. Even if a public-schooled child is being taught the evolution is the devil at home presumably he or she is actually being shown the theory at school and giving them an opportunity to actually think about it. Of course you get some public teachers who aren't any good but I was focusing on this aspect of homeschooling because it really bothers me that some families seize it as an opportunity to totally isolate their children.

But they are not being shown the theory at school. Or, in some school districts, they are shown the theory with the caveat that it goes against the Bible, which says X.

[YPestis]

Why? To be fair, my kids will not be learning about evolution in school. There are probably a lot of children in their classes that are being taught at home that evolution is the work of the devil, and nothing in school counter-acts that. They have all had some really sucky teachers, ones who cannot spell, ones who scream at the class, it happens and we deal with it. If we are going to demand that homeschooling parents all be 'decent' at their jobs, we need to demand that public school are so as well. And we can't; it is really hard to measure a teacher's abilities, and thus really hard to identify and re-train bad teachers.

I don't think homeschoolers should be held to a higher standard than public schools.

I dont' believe homeschoolers need to be held to a "higher" standard, but they should be held to the same standard as public schools. At the elementary level, it's easier to find to say that homeschoolers can be just as good, if not better than teachers. Most parents can read passably, write functionally and do simple arithmatic. However, once you reach high school, how can anyone say that one parents is capable of teaching british literature, biochemistry, calculus, advanced latin etc?

It's not hard to measure a teacher's ability at that point. If a teacher can't do first degree integrals, she can't teach calculus. If a teacher can't understand Of Mice and Men, he can't teach English, if he can't understand the acid-base equations, he can't teach chemistry. It's not that hard to separate the incompetent from the rest. I also don't believe that we should use poor teachers as an excuse to allow for poorly trained parents to teach.

For me, it's pretty easy. Since there is no qualification for homeschooled parents to have in order to teach, the quality varies much more than public school teachers. We can have the Duggars and we can have Nobel Prize winners teaching. However, in a public school, we at least know where even the dumbest teacher stands in terms of qualifications.

[freejoytoo]

Well, I can't speak for the American school system but I assumed it had to be taught. In the UK everyone learns about evolution, probably not in enough detail as we should, but it is taught. I think it's worrying that it isn't taught in public schools. I thought there was a separation of church and state so what's the justification for that?

Either way, I think both homeschools and state schools should have the same standards and the same expectations and people like Michelle should not be qualified to teach in either situation. I don't think it's right that any kind of parent can say 'I want to teach my child' and then can potentially provide a substandard level of education, like SDRT. Before I get yelled at, I'm sure there are plenty of dedicated, inspiring homeschooling parents but there are also the dangerous fundy types and they should not get control over their children's education. God knows what they do when it comes to sex ed for one.

[AmyP]

I dont' believe homeschoolers need to be held to a "higher" standard, but they should be held to the same standard as public schools. At the elementary level, it's easier to find to say that homeschoolers can be just as good, if not better than teachers. Most parents can read passably, write functionally and do simple arithmatic. However, once you reach high school, how can anyone say that one parents is capable of teaching british literature, biochemistry, calculus, advanced latin etc?

It's not hard to measure a teacher's ability at that point. If a teacher can't do first degree integrals, she can't teach calculus. If a teacher can't understand Of Mice and Men, he can't teach English, if he can't understand the acid-base equations, he can't teach chemistry. It's not that hard to separate the incompetent from the rest. I also don't believe that we should use poor teachers as an excuse to allow for poorly trained parents to teach.

For me, it's pretty easy. Since there is no qualification for homeschooled parents to have in order to teach, the quality varies much more than public school teachers. We can have the Duggars and we can have Nobel Prize winners teaching. However, in a public school, we at least know where even the dumbest teacher stands in terms of qualifications.

many (not all) people who homeschool through high school do something that is best described as hybrid schooling. For a difficult course like Chemistry they might use an on-line teacher with live support if the child has questions, or they might co-op with a parent with a science background. Calculus is taught to homeschooled kids at the local community college, or again, you can get this on-line from highly qualified teachers. In addition, many home schooled high school students really don't need to be taught things that they can learn out of a book. And there are amazing resources out there for the students and the parents. If parents lay the groundwork correctly in the early years, homeschooled high school students are almost entirely self taught. This is why, if your homeschooled child can establish their academic credentials sufficiently, colleges love them.

[emmiedahl]

I totally understand your point of view, especially now that I know you are not coming from the US.

The education system in the US is so screwed up in some places that I bristle at oversight for homeschooling parents because we really need that option. There are some great public schools, and also ones that are giving a worse education than the SOTDRT. Some kids are really better off having Mom pull them out and teach them even with just a basic high school diploma. Teaching evolution and sex ed are both very controversial here, so a lot of American children get neither OR they get them but in a "balanced" way, which means the children are told a few basic facts about evolution and then reminded that it goes against the Bible and is the work of the devil.

I would love to see the public education system improved and standardized, then I would agree that homeschool needs more oversight.

However, once you reach high school, how can anyone say that one parents is capable of teaching british literature, biochemistry, calculus, advanced latin etc?

The average American high school student does not learn these subjects, many schools do not even offer them. An American high school student can graduate without ever having taken biology or algebra.

[meda]

I totally understand your point of view, especially now that I know you are not coming from the US.

The education system in the US is so screwed up in some places that I bristle at oversight for homeschooling parents because we really need that option. There are some great public schools, and also ones that are giving a worse education than the SOTDRT. Some kids are really better off having Mom pull them out and teach them even with just a basic high school diploma. Teaching evolution and sex ed are both very controversial here, so a lot of American children get neither OR they get them but in a "balanced" way, which means the children are told a few basic facts about evolution and then reminded that it goes against the Bible and is the work of the devil.

I would love to see the public education system improved and standardized, then I would agree that homeschool needs more oversight.

The average American high school student does not learn these subjects, many schools do not even offer them. An American high school student can graduate without ever having taken biology or algebra.

Where can a student graduate from a public school without taking algebra and biology? Someone can attend school until the state age to drop out and not take those subjects, one can get a GED without those subjects, (although I think you need some algebra for a GED) but where can you actually obtain a non vocational, regular high school diploma without taking and passing those subjects? I get that you don't think there should be any oversight for homeschoolers, and that you're not a big fan of teachers, but you're stretching the argument.

[meda]

Emmie, I believe you are in Washington State? Here is the link to the math learning standards for k-12 public schools, algebra is clearly part of the curriculum.

http://www.k12.wa.us/Mathematics/Standards.aspx

[clibbyjo]

I don't know of any public high schools that teach biochemistry and advanced latin. I would say most public high schools offer bio,chem and physics for upper grade science,in that order(This is what the district I live in offers and the district I went to offers. I live in a semi-rural area). Languages are Spanish, French and maybe German. The only high school I know of that even offers Latin is the private, all boys Catholic school my husband went to and he took Spanish.

I am speaking as a homeschooler who has also taught and set up classes in co-ops for the past 10 years.I don't know anyone in the secular homeschooling world who teaches everything themselves in the upper grades. Most people(even the Christian homeschoolers) use at least a math program/curriculum they purchased from a homeschool math company or they get the math books from their school district and use those. Upper grade homeschool math programs are usually a lecture based class with lessons on-line or in a paper workbook. My husband actually loves math and he took Calculus for fun and tutored it in college so he can easily teach it to our kids if they need help.

Because I co-run a homeschool co-op ,I will set up a class for anything we want or need and don't feel qualified to teach. For example, we don't have a lab. I can speak for chemistry right now because my 9 year old is taking a chemistry class with "Mad Science" which is a franchise http://www.madscience.org/aboutus/index.aspx . We asked them if they will do a class for middle schoolers and they are setting something up for us. Or co-op also got the science center to offer middle school chemistry classes for homeschoolers . I am currently waiting to hear back from the community college to see if one of their chemistry professors will do a high school age chemistry class.

Most of the women in my group are experts in their own rights. We have had the archeologist teach a class on archeology,bring in artifacts and also set up a field trip to her moms archeology firm in the city. We have had 2 of the lawyers run a "Biils of Rights" class which also included the kids doing a crazy rap at the end because one of those moms was crazy into digital movie making and has all the equipment.

This is the way most of the people in my co-op do school. We set up classes and pay experts. My daughter does extracurricular activities of piano, tae kwon do, hockey and acting,all of which we pay experts to do. Same with my sons fencing. I would even say the most Christian homeschoolers at least allow their kids to do Christian co-op classes or belong to a co-op or church so they have friends and do activities. I have been to lots of free,homeschool library classes where every family is a headcovering type except us so I know they are doing something.There are very few Maxwell types who completely keep their kids from everyone.

[emmiedahl]

My son goes to a pretty highly ranked high school. Many students go to top universities. Nonetheless, you need three years of any math to graduate and 1 year of any life science. There are some very watered-down math and science courses, and many students graduate without either Algebra or Biology. Ditto for the high school I went to. They had a class called "life science" that many students took because Basic Biology was too hard. The high school exit exam in Washington has some algebra on it, which is part of the reason many students are failing it.

And biochemistry? Latin? I'm laughing here. Those are not typical coursework at most high schools. My kid is taking calculus at a local community college next year (his senior year).

[emmiedahl]

Emmie, I believe you are in Washington State? Here is the link to the math learning standards for k-12 public schools, algebra is clearly part of the curriculum.

http://www.k12.wa.us/Mathematics/Standards.aspx

One of the big scandals in Washington is how few schools are meeting the minimal state standards. They recently started a high school exit exam and the failure rate is huge, because although high schools offer those courses, many do not require them and a lot of students don't take them.

eta: if you look at the Mathematics 1, 2, and 3 option at that website, there is a track in which the students are taught basic algebra at a decelerated pace over three years, probably so they can pass the exit exam.

eta: if you look at this link, only 17 out of 50 US states require any algebra to graduate. http://andrewgelman.com/2006/02/post_2/

[meda]

One of the big scandals in Washington is how few schools are meeting the minimal state standards. They recently started a high school exit exam and the failure rate is huge, because although high schools offer those courses, many do not require them and a lot of students don't take them.

That is really odd. How do schools continue to be funded if they are not following the state curriculum? And why don't parents insist that their kids take the required classes? For reference, in NYS biology is a requirement, chemistry and physics are strongly recommended for college track. Algebra is taught as math 1 and 2, required even for a student who is enrolled in a vocational program. Back in the dark ages at my very small, rural NY evil public school, calculus, AP physics and chem were offered, as well as 2 language options.

[dawbs]

That is really odd. How do schools continue to be funded if they are not following the state curriculum? And why don't parents insist that their kids take the required classes? For reference, in NYS biology is a requirement, chemistry and physics are strongly recommended for college track. Algebra is taught as math 1 and 2, required even for a student who is enrolled in a vocational program. Back in the dark ages at my very small, rural NY evil public school, calculus, AP physics and chem were offered, as well as 2 language options.

Speaking only to the bolded (and off topic for home-schooling)...through trickery.

I work in a state where Algebra 2 became a graduation requirement, recently, through the state. (there are good points and bad points to that, but, regardless, that's the requirement). I also work in, what can best be described as a 'bad area'--with lousy schools. (I'm not much of a fan of most home-schooling and I don't consider it good or practical for my family, but if I lived where I worked, there's no way in hell my kid would go to public school. It's not safe and it's rather useless)

I recently had a group of HS students in to take a practice 'placement test'. They were filling out forms for which levels of math they had taken. We had to go over, repeatedly, that Algebra 1 & Algebra 2 TOGETHER, in their school, made up what most schools would call Algebra 1. Algebra 3 and Algebra 4 made up whoat most schools would call Algebra 2.

Magic, they teach algebra 2!

(and, FWIW, yes, it violates the law as it is written...but who is going to complain? Also of note, the students may get 4.0 grades in Algebra 1&2 and can't add fractions.)

Parents should require more, but when dealing w/ an un-educated populous, the parents don't know that the school is playing games. They don't know that their kid getting a 3.5 in Algebra 1 and a 2.0 in Algebra 2 just means that their kid hasn't actually passed Algebra 2.

The parents may or may not barely haev a HS diploma--they don't know what they should be demanding of their schools.

[emmiedahl]

That is really odd. How do schools continue to be funded if they are not following the state curriculum? And why don't parents insist that their kids take the required classes? For reference, in NYS biology is a requirement, chemistry and physics are strongly recommended for college track. Algebra is taught as math 1 and 2, required even for a student who is enrolled in a vocational program. Back in the dark ages at my very small, rural NY evil public school, calculus, AP physics and chem were offered, as well as 2 language options.

At my son's school, Biology, Chemistry and math up through either Calculus or Trig is offered, but these are for higher-achieving students. In my area, there is an issue with immigrants in the schools, they might speak rudimentary English but their math and science skills are way behind. So if you get a ninth grader who has little formal education and can barely add, do you throw them in Algebra and Biology, or do you put them in a Basic Math class with Life Science as an alternative?

The fact that schools cannot/should not really force students to take these classes and often don't make them a graduation requirement is why the state started the exit exam in the first place. But a lot of people protested it, and a lot of kids in my area are failing it. It is a relatively easy test; my son passed it the first time it was given in ninth grade and said it had very basic algebra (like 4x=24, solve for x) and easy reading comprehension, plus there was a written portion.

[meda]

One of the big scandals in Washington is how few schools are meeting the minimal state standards. They recently started a high school exit exam and the failure rate is huge, because although high schools offer those courses, many do not require them and a lot of students don't take them.

eta: if you look at the Mathematics 1, 2, and 3 option at that website, there is a track in which the students are taught basic algebra at a decelerated pace over three years, probably so they can pass the exit exam.

eta: if you look at this link, only 17 out of 50 US states require any algebra to graduate. http://andrewgelman.com/2006/02/post_2/

I'm not sure a 6 year old blog entry is really the best reference for state graduation requirements. According to this Washington Post article from April of 2011, 20 states are now requiring Agebra II, not just Algebra I.

Edit to add: if the issue is education for recent immigrants with limited English skills, maybe you should have said that rather than characterizing the entire US public education system as so substandard that kids are not taught Algebra or biology. Washington's exit exam sort of makes the point, that material is on the exam, if I kid fails the exam is he allowed to graduate and given a diploma? If it's a requirement for graduation, why shouldn't a school force the kids to take those classes? Isn't that the point?

[crazyforkate]

If the parent is reasonably bright and, more importantly, very very committed, I don't see an issue. Whatever you put into it, you get out of it.

[DCmilly]

And biochemistry? Latin? I'm laughing here. Those are not typical coursework at most high schools. My kid is taking calculus at a local community college next year (his senior year).

I'd like to offer a totally different perspective here. When I was in high school (graduated ten years ago) my huge suburban public high school had latin all the way through the advanced level. It is still available as normal coursework through the intermediate level and now the advanced level is an independent study (perhaps due to less demand). When I was a student my school had french, spanish, german, italian, russian and japanese course work. Now it has all of those still available with the exception of german. It has also added basic and intermediate coursework in arabic and mandarin.

My high school also had exceptional science coursework and at least biology, chemistry and either earth science or physics are mandatory. All of the basic science courses had a special version designed for ESOL students as well as honors and AP versions. There are also elective courses in anatomy and physiology, forensics, astronomy,a basic mechanical engineering and design course and an entirely separate computer science department that has basic through AP level coursework.

These are just examples, but all the schools in the county (which is racially and economically diverse) have these types of courses as do many of the neighboring counties. Also, the most advanced students who have completed all the high school/AP courses can take classes at the local community colleges or local branch of the state university and the high school pays for it.

If the suburban school districts were like this where i grew up, I would imagine that there are suburban school districts with these types of opportunities near most major cities. The problem is how the US can maintain these standards while expanding these same opportunities to rural and inner city environments.

On a side note, there were some parents who sent their kids to private or parochial schools where I grew up, but homeschooling was absolutely unheard of in my hometown.

[Olive Plant]

From what I've heard, a lot of homeschoolers claim to teach themselves, so if Mom or Dad doesn't know something, the kid has to train himself/herself by reading the textbook. At least in terms of math. I've heard a lot of homeschoolers say they've learned math from their textbooks because their moms didn't know anything beyond basic algebra (or had forgotten it). I'm not sure this it all that different than some public school situations where teachers are less than awesome... kids are supposed to learn/study from their textbooks either way. This self-teaching idea is mentioned on kbotkin.com/2012/01/11/on-homeschooling/ in a longer post on homeschooling, which also mentions learning Latin: "in eighth or ninth grade, I visited a private school with some of my friends, and I was horrified at how much time they spent being counterproductive. In math, the teacher went over how to find the circumference of a circle, and even though I already knew how to do that, the way he was teaching it confused me. In Spanish, we repeated nouns in unison with atrocious pronunciation. Thereafter, I did not set foot inside a lecture hall until college."

[YPestis]

many (not all) people who homeschool through high school do something that is best described as hybrid schooling. For a difficult course like Chemistry they might use an on-line teacher with live support if the child has questions, or they might co-op with a parent with a science background. Calculus is taught to homeschooled kids at the local community college, or again, you can get this on-line from highly qualified teachers.

I understand that homeschooling parents can and do ask for outside help in subjects they are unfamiliar with. These parents are essentially reproducing what many public schools already offer. It's the parents right to homeschool. But it's also the parents' responsibility to make sure their kids receive the best academic education offered to them.

In addition, many home schooled high school students really don't need to be taught things that they can learn out of a book. And there are amazing resources out there for the students and the parents. If parents lay the groundwork correctly in the early years, homeschooled high school students are almost entirely self taught. This is why, if your homeschooled child can establish their academic credentials sufficiently, colleges love them.

With all due respect, I completely disagree with you on this part. Most in-depth understanding of subjects require some form of guidance. Textbooks provides only a superficial understanding of the subject matter. Furthermore, self-studying complex subjects can be extremely slow.

A teacher is extremely important in picking nuances of prose, or the subtleties of a chemical equation. Science (and the arts) are far more shades of gray. Textbooks doesn't fill gaps in your knowledge as a teacher would. Textbooks can't anticipate any inconsistencies you perceive. Textbooks can't correct incorrect assumptions if you misread them. A decent teacher would at least try to resolve some of those issues.

[YPestis]

I don't know of any public high schools that teach biochemistry and advanced latin. I would say most public high schools offer bio,chem and physics for upper grade science,in that order

My son goes to a pretty highly ranked high school. Many students go to top universities. Nonetheless, you need three years of any math to graduate and 1 year of any life science. There are some very watered-down math and science courses, and many students graduate without either Algebra or Biology. Ditto for the high school I went to.

And biochemistry? Latin? I'm laughing here. Those are not typical coursework at most high schools. My kid is taking calculus at a local community college next year (his senior year).

Well, I attended a public high school which offered biochemistry, a full year of college calculus and four years of latin...and it was a run of the mill suburban school. Students were required to do Algebra II in order to graduate, most finished at least trigonometry. And I would disagree that it's rare we had those courses offered. I knew plenty of college students who had even more advanced coursework offered in their high school. At least one had differential equations offered as the highest math course. Granted, it was not a public school.

I knew plenty of students who had taken AP chem/bio/physics, calculus, and yes, quite a few were latin scholars. I attended an academically selective college but I hardly think I live in some rarefied academic world here. If it's possible for a run of a mill suburban school at a medium sized, noncoastal city to offer these advanced classes, then it can't be that impossible of a schedule.

The average American high school student does not learn these subjects, many schools do not even offer them. An American high school student can graduate without ever having taken biology or algebra.

Math requirement at my school was algebra II to graduate. I don't know of anyone who didn't have that minimal requirement. I would agree that biology is not required but among my parents' friends' college kids, almost all have taken at least a few of the bio/chem/physics variety in high school. It's pretty much required for college. Plenty of high achieving suburban schools near metro areas offer advanced coursework. It's not as unusual as you would think.

[ShesCrafty]

At the high school where I currently work, which is in an extremely rural district and nowhere near a major city, students are required to have 3 credits in science (grade 9, biology and chemistry or physics) and 3 credits in math (which must include algebra, geometry, statistics and probablity).

[Aurora]

I believe in supporting public schools (mine, by the way, offered Latin, German, biology, physics and chemistry). I guess I can understand why homeschooling would be an attractive option for certain parents, especially depending on their kids' personalities, but I wish the same effort would go into supporting/improving our public schools and their teachers so that everyone could benefit. My mom was a public school teacher for many years and the frustrations she had to deal with... but maybe that is an idealistic view. Anyway I mostly agree with dairyfreelife and Renting with Raggles, who both expressed their opinions much better.