Botkinettes are excited to announce...

[Marian the Librarian]

..."Our favorite married couples speak on marrying well."

"Over the past year and a half we have had the privilege of watching two of our brothers humbly and prayerfully consider the decision to marry their future brides. Their examples have taught us a lot about discerning the Lord’s will and studying Scripture for answers to the many questions that surface along the way. We’re excited to announce that our father, Geoffrey Botkin, and our dear mother Victoria will be joining David & Nadia and Ben & Audri for a five-week webinar discussing marriage–and the challenges and joys of getting there. Find out more at westernconservatory.com!"

Nothing really new here, they're just doing more shilling for Dad. The irony continues to burn...

[Sarietty]

David and Nadia have been married how long? And they're already giving advice on marriage? Okay, Botkins . . .

[liltwinstar]

Soooo romantic, having your husband "consider" you, am I right?

Ugh. I've been married longer than David and Nadia, and I wouldn't presume to give marriage advice or tell people how to live their lives. I'm betting that I would give better advice, though, because it would include things like compatability, respect, communication, being yourself (and not following a "pattern" because people are all unique), celebrating what makes your relationship unique, negotiating your *own* relationship, etc etc. You know, actual important stuff.

[Pearl]

I hope someone can answer this question for me. How does one study the Bible to discover answers as to whether or not one should marry the person they want to marry? Especially since both parties are Christians - and not only that - are the same brand of Christianity.

[antifundie]

Don't you know that respect, consideration, and communication are Feministic?

Alls you need to do for a happy relationship is learn how to cook, and how to submit. That's all. Oh and learn that all needs and desires are of the devil.

There, I just encapsulated their seminar.

Seriously, though--consider you? Yeah. No. Sounds like they made a pro/con list.

[xReems]

Ugh, this is like when Josh and Anna would attend ATI seminars and give advice on a key to a successful marriage. It irks the hell out of me when people who are still considered "newlyweds" think that they are the perfect people to hand out marriage advice. No offense, but the last people I would want to hear hand out marriage advice are the ones who people a wife should submit to their husband's authority. Nope, sorry, can't do it.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Oh please, the Botkins don't do anything "humbly."

[gardenvarietycitizen]

They call it "marriage advice" but I think it's really all about courtship advice. They're qualified to advise because they safely made it to the wedding day with the perfect unsullied image - it's the first relationship for both the man and woman, they've not touched during the courtship, and managed to pull off the big day so they could achieve their real true goal - a first kiss after the marriage pronouncement, fit for the cameras and selling more books about their lifestyle.

The actual married life is second-fiddle to all that.

[Olivia]

I've been married four years and my husband and I have been through some crap - military deployment, year-long separations, possibly PTSD, unemployment, a miscarriage - and stayed strong and loving throughout. But, um, I wouldn't offer anyone advice unless someone came to me with a specific concern where I could tell them how we got through it, with the understanding that we don't have all the answers for everyone. And there's about a million other marital issues that I'm not remotely qualified to address.

I just don't get trying to teach anyone about marriage, or selecting a partner, when you haven't been through a long, successful marriage yourself. I'm not sure that even though I certainly "married well" - my husband is amazing - I could tell anyone else how to duplicate that process.

[Marian the Librarian]

Didn't some very wise person once say "The only two people who really know what goes on in a marriage are the husband and wife," or words to that effect?

While all things Botkin squick me out, what I find most off-putting about their latest project is the family enmeshment/meddlesomeness aspect -- the implication that these four young adults couldn't possibly have had the judgment, brains and maturity to figure things out for themselves and make their own marriage choices. That, and the sheer arrogance and lack of privacy of it all.

If I were Audri or Nadia, I'd be developing a case of Serious Chafe right about now.

[booksnbeats]

Seriously. What must Nadia be thinking? Even if she was raised fundie, are her parents relentless moneygrubbers like the Botkins?

[Childless]

I don't think any of the Botkins could figure out how to choose a spouse and have a successful marriage without daddy's input because daddy has engineered them to be that way. He's never tried to instill a sense of responsibility, maturity, or self reliance in his children. He's raised them to be weak minded and dependent on him.

Fortunately, most parents have done a better job in preparing their children for the adult world. Therefore, most people don't need Daddy Botkin's brand of marriage advice. Besides, each marriage is unique and each individual in a marriage is unique. What works for one marriage won't work for another. That's the way it should be. So, why would I take advice from the Botkins? They don't know me or my husband. They don't know what type of problems we've faced or how we interact with each other. This is why I don't go to any of those marriage retreats or conferences. I feel they're a sham. If my husband and I ever have issues that we need help with, I'd rather spend my time and money on a marriage counselor who would work with us one on one and take the time to get to know us as people. Only then would we get any advice that might be helpful.

[kaetrin]

They call it "marriage advice" but I think it's really all about courtship advice. They're qualified to advise because they safely made it to the wedding day with the perfect unsullied image - it's the first relationship for both the man and woman, they've not touched during the courtship, and managed to pull off the big day so they could achieve their real true goal - a first kiss after the marriage pronouncement, fit for the cameras and selling more books about their lifestyle.

The actual married life is second-fiddle to all that.

This.

They all pay lip service to how courtship is a better preparation for married life than dating, but really it's all about perpetuating parental control and keeping the young folks from having premarital sex.

My mother in law is promoting this seminar on FB and I wanted to ask her how these people are qualified to give marriage advice when they've been married all of five minutes... but then I remembered that she is the woman who taught courtship classes at her church when, not only had they not courted, but none of their at-the-time-teenaged sons had ever been in a relationship of any kind.

ETA: These are also the inlaws who, when my husband and I first started dating, lectured ME for hours about the superiority of courtship even though I was the only person in the conversation who had actually experienced one before.

Back on-topic-ish, this is all to say that experience literally counts for less than nothing with these folks. Experience just gets in the way of being able to properly apply the pure principles. If you have experience, you are actually DISqualified to speak because your evil pragmatism is skewing your perspective. :angry-banghead:

[mirele]

Let's just cut to the chase: What's going to happen to the Botkinettes when daddy Geoff drops dead? As of right now, all I see is that they're up the proverbial creek.

[MamaJunebug]

IIRC it's been reported that Geoff and Vicki weren't a love match, but were brought together by their cult group leader while in the Great Commission in college.

I trust that mode of matchmaking will be explored as well.

The expanded info on the Western Conservatory website (westernconservatory.com) is even weirder. Apparently they are dissing the courtship model, now, or at least they're acknowledging that it isn't foolproof.

My guess is that the answer to every question comes back to, "Listen to your fathers, because they have The Word O'God. In the absence of familial fathers, listen to your cult group leaders, yada yada."

I'd pay the $29 to see this if somehow that $29 would go to a food pantry that the Botkins approve of. (And no, that doesn't mean their household pantry.) It should be .... predictable.

[tehgoobster]

IIRC it's been reported that Geoff and Vicki weren't a love match, but were brought together by their cult group leader while in the Great Commission in college.

Actually, I think the Botkinettes once wrote that their parents were childhood sweethearts. If that's the case, then I'll take it that no courtship was involved ... which means that they gave away pieces of their heart to each other before marriage! ZOMG!

[Pearl]

I have also noticed a lot of Christians give advice on things that they have never dealt with or trained to deal with it. I call this the "ideal" opinion. Christians like to advise others based on their "ideal" opinion, not on what is actual truth. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the couples in question have been married for 30 seconds or never courted in the first place, they are qualified to teach because they have the perfect ideal opinion. What I find interesting is that the ideal is never the truth. The ideal is that the church leaders would truly censor and discipline a wayward husband and that the wayward husband would actually respond to this censor/discipline in the appropriate manner. The truth is many churches don't do this and even if they did the husband probably won't care because the church HAS NO POWER. Okay - now I have digressed a bit.

[Kitten]

learn that all needs and desires are of the devil

No, no, no, no, no...only YOUR needs and desires (and those of your blessings/rewards). The patriarch's needs and desires are Godly and to be pursued at all costs (as long as those costs are incurred by you and the kids, of course, not him).

[raineymott]

What I hate is all the "God's will" stuff...GOD DID NOT TELL YOU TO MARRY ANYBODY. And I don't believe s/he does, either.

By the way, I had someone tell me I wasn't allowed to have an opinion on whether or not young marriages were ok, because I'm "young and married". She said I had to wait 20 years to have an opinion (making it sound like wait 20 years to have an opinion on ANYTHING). The funny thing was, it was in regards to me telling someone that they shouldn't make the blanket statement that "all young marriages turn out bad". I didn't even have an opinion on it. xD But yeah, I don't like people telling me I can't have an opinion on something...on the other hand, I'm not trying to hand out free advice either. ;) (I tell people my husband's and my relationship is the exception to every rule anyway!)

[lilwriter85]

David and Nadia have egos to think they can give out marriage advice at young ages. I rolled my eyes a few months back when I was looking at Josh and Anna's site and how they do marriage counseling for other couples.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

David and Nadia have egos to think they can give out marriage advice at young ages. I rolled my eyes a few months back when I was looking at Josh and Anna's site and how they do marriage counseling for other couples.

Well, to be fair, I'm sure Anna is qualified to advise other women on how to live with an arrogant, obnoxious windbag, which pretty much describes every 20-something dude who was raised and remains fundie. :lol: Unfortunately, that advise is most likely "shut up and submit." :roll: