How do they know.... What is God's Will?

[Austin]

I'll take a swing at this from a CF's view point since I am one.

I've always believed that God has a plan for my life and for everyone's too. I don't think that God cares too much about the minor details of my life, but I think that it is possible to see God's hand guiding major events in my life. When bad things happen or when things aren't going the way I want them to go, most of the time I feel that it is time to be still and listen for God's voice and try to see if He is trying to send me a wake-up call to get me back on his path. This is what Romans 8:28 teaches: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Case in point, last year this time my husband developed a health issue that only seemed to be a problem at his work place. He would experience panic attacks/full body cramps only at work. He sought medical help and was in and out of work for months trying to get this straightened out. His boss tried to work with him at first but then it became clear they were going to fire him if he didn't solve his health problem and rightfully so. I'm a STAHM, so I was stressing tremendously. We both prayed for him to keep his job, but he was fired. In a few weeks, he was hired by a different company and has since doubled his salary and has hours better suited to our family. His job loss turned out to be a blessing! All of his health problems disappeared. We feel this episode was God's way to telling him he was not where he should have been.

There was another time in our marriage where we were trying to live in a different city instead of our home town. Although we both felt we should move home, we were determined to make it work in this new city. Serveral smaller events happened that I feel were little wake up calls and we kept ignoring them. Then one night, we were held at gun point in house. We were not harmed and nothing was taken, but it was the wake up call we needed. After that, we both said, "Yes, God, we get this message!" We packed up and moved home in days, and our home town is clearly where God needed us to be.

When I feel tempted by things that are against God's will, I do think it is Satan doing but I have free will so it is my choice and I have to suffer the consequences.

Used to believe this stuff, but don't any more. The reality is that you can read anything into a situation you want. I think it is a prime example of confirmation bias. Both good and bad things happen to Christians and non-Christians alike. People lose jobs and get betters ones all the time, people who are not Christians and never will be. The "message" of someone holding you at gunpoint (sorry that happened, btw) could have just as easily been that you needed better security. Or maybe there was no "message" at all. Maybe you were just victimized by a criminal.

I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, and you are entitled to them, obviously, but they are a bit of a trigger for me. My gut response is that I'm dismayed that you believe that God is so worried about where you live and your husband's career, and with so many people suffering in the world in life and death ways, it just reeks of "speshul-snowflake-ness".

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, and you are entitled to them, obviously, but they are a bit of a trigger for me. My gut response is that I'm dismayed that you believe that God is so worried about where you live and your husband's career, and with so many people suffering in the world in life and death ways, it just reeks of "speshul-snowflake-ness".

Austin, the "speshul-snowflake-ness" part honestly made me laugh, and I needed a laugh today. I really wasn't intending to sound like that, and I'm sorry if I did. My apologies! I don't think that God is "worried" about where my husband works or where we live. What I meant was I believe God has a plan for everyone's life and sometimes He needs to send you wake up calls when you aren't where he needs you to be for His plan to unfold. I also believe that God cares about everyone, not just the snowflakes. lol... Another poster mentioned about listening to your heart. For me, I think that everyone has that inner voice inside and I believe it is God's voice. I was trying to say when there have been times in my life when I haven't listened to God's voice, He has sent me wake up calls and the more I have tried to ignore that voice, the louder the calls become.

I, too, worry about all of the suffering in the world. I do feel it is up to those who have more to help those who don't. What bothers me the most about some CF are those who work hard to send the gospel to places where people are starving. I'll contribute time and money, but I make it clear that I want my money to go to buying food and not sending Bibles.

[bbfreethinker]

Used to believe this stuff, but don't any more. The reality is that you can read anything into a situation you want. I think it is a prime example of confirmation bias. Both good and bad things happen to Christians and non-Christians alike. People lose jobs and get betters ones all the time, people who are not Christians and never will be. The "message" of someone holding you at gunpoint (sorry that happened, btw) could have just as easily been that you needed better security. Or maybe there was no "message" at all. Maybe you were just victimized by a criminal.

I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, and you are entitled to them, obviously, but they are a bit of a trigger for me. My gut response is that I'm dismayed that you believe that God is so worried about where you live and your husband's career, and with so many people suffering in the world in life and death ways, it just reeks of "speshul-snowflake-ness".

Exactly, Austin. I've also never understood how people can think being the victim of a crime was god's will, or god trying to tell them something. Does that mean that God tells people to sin?

[Austin]

Austin, the "speshul-snowflake-ness" part honestly made me laugh, and I needed a laugh today. I really wasn't intending to sound like that, and I'm sorry if I did. My apologies! I don't think that God is "worried" about where my husband works or where we live. What I meant was I believe God has a plan for everyone's life and sometimes He needs to send you wake up calls when you aren't where he needs you to be for His plan to unfold. I also believe that God cares about everyone, not just the snowflakes. lol... Another poster mentioned about listening to your heart. For me, I think that everyone has that inner voice inside and I believe it is God's voice. I was trying to say when there have been times in my life when I haven't listened to God's voice, He has sent me wake up calls and the more I have tried to ignore that voice, the louder the calls become.

I, too, worry about all of the suffering in the world. I do feel it is up to those who have more to help those who don't. What bothers me the most about some CF are those who work hard to send the gospel to places where people are starving. I'll contribute time and money, but I make it clear that I want my money to go to buying food and not sending Bibles.

Yeah, you really don't need to explain it. I spent a lifetime believing that God "loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". Heard it all, probably parrotted it all.

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

Austin, what made you stop believing? Sincerely curious... I have lurked here for a while, and recently decided to start posting. I'm a SAHM, so when I feel the need to read some intelligent discussions I find myself on FJ.

[Austin]

Austin, what made you stop believing? Sincerely curious... I have lurked here for a while, and recently decided to start posting. I'm a SAHM, so when I feel the need to read some intelligent discussions I find myself on FJ.

Not trying to blow you off at all, but I just wrote this out last week in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4397

I have about eight posts in that topic where I talk about my unexpected (and not always welcome) journey. Other FJers who have made similar journeys (although not always ending up in the same place) describe their experiences, too.

If you have questions, I would be happy to answer them after you've had a chance to look over the topic.

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

Thanks. Will do.

[formergothardite]

Exactly, Austin. I've also never understood how people can think being the victim of a crime was god's will, or god trying to tell them something. Does that mean that God tells people to sin?

Yeah, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. Why does God will some people to sin just to make other people get the message that they should move to a different town?

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

Not trying to blow you off at all, but I just wrote this out last week in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4397

I have about eight posts in that topic where I talk about my unexpected (and not always welcome) journey. Other FJers who have made similar journeys (although not always ending up in the same place) describe their experiences, too.

If you have questions, I would be happy to answer them after you've had a chance to look over the topic.

I read your backstory and I understand where you are coming from because I was raised in an uber fundamentalist chuch that followed the gospel according to Jack Hyles. I just started my very on posted about him. I completely understand why the church you were attending left a bad taste in your mouth. I consider myself an open minded fundamentalist. I agree with most everything you said in your backstory. I believe that God is real, and religion is our response to God. As such, religion is full of error and interpretation. That doesn't change that God is real and infallable. From the way you responded to my post, I got the impression that you either didn't believe in God or you didn't believe in a loving God who cares about you. I'm glad to see that your faith wasn't totally shaken by the people in your former church, and I'm sorry that happened to you.

[gustava]

SouthcArolinagirl actually makes some sense to me, though I'm a heathen. God has a master plan for each person. If each person listens to God's voice (however that is defined), she will know what God wants her to do. Sometimes, though, she doesn't listen well, so God gives her a little nudge, such as being held at gunpoint.

My question to SCG is this: If you had stayed in big city, would that have been giving in to Satan, or would that be you ignoring God's voice?

[annalena]

SouthcArolinagirl actually makes some sense to me, though I'm a heathen. God has a master plan for each person. If each person listens to God's voice (however that is defined), she will know what God wants her to do. Sometimes, though, she doesn't listen well, so God gives her a little nudge, such as being held at gunpoint.

My question to SCG is this: If you had stayed in big city, would that have been giving in to Satan, or would that be you ignoring God's voice?

Wouldn't that be the same thing, essentially?

[formergothardite]

SouthcArolinagirl actually makes some sense to me, though I'm a heathen. God has a master plan for each person. If each person listens to God's voice (however that is defined), she will know what God wants her to do. Sometimes, though, she doesn't listen well, so God gives her a little nudge, such as being held at gunpoint.My question to SCG is this: If you had stayed in big city, would that have been giving in to Satan, or would that be you ignoring God's voice?

So God wanted someone to commit a crime just to give her a nudge? Sucks to be that other person.

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

So God wanted someone to commit a crime just to give her a nudge? Sucks to be that other person.

I get your point, but here's more backstory. The apartment that we had been living in for about 4 months had been previously rented to a drug dealer. Oh the things that landlord did not disclose to us! The two men who held us at gunpoint were looking for the drug dealer and did us no harm, other than scaring the mess out of us. I do believe in free will and I do not think that God *made* those men break into our apartment that night. I do believe that God wanted us to move back to our home town and several things fell into place once we did. That incident was the wake up call we needed, and while some might disagree I think it was in God's plan that we move home. It resulted in my changing colleges, which changed my career plan, which resulted in my having the ability/courage to homeschool my son, the fact that our house is paid for and we are debt free, and about a dozen more life changing events that transpired that I can trace back to that one night.

[SouthCarolinaGirl79]

SouthcArolinagirl actually makes some sense to me, though I'm a heathen. God has a master plan for each person. If each person listens to God's voice (however that is defined), she will know what God wants her to do. Sometimes, though, she doesn't listen well, so God gives her a little nudge, such as being held at gunpoint.

My question to SCG is this: If you had stayed in big city, would that have been giving in to Satan, or would that be you ignoring God's voice?

I think that things in our life would have kept going wrong until we had no choice but to listen to God's voice. It reminds me of the story of Jonah in the Bible where he ignored God's voice and God did what He had to do to make Jonah listen. Whether you believe in God or not, I think everyone has those moments in life when everything is going wrong and it is because you are in a place where your life is not supposed to be. Most people who make the life altering changes start to get that sense of purpose that tells them they are now on the right path. I think that is God's voice and guiding hand.

[Constance Vigilance]

I do believe in free will and I do not think that God *made* those men break into our apartment that night. I do believe that God wanted us to move back to our home town and several things fell into place once we did. That incident was the wake up call we needed, and while some might disagree I think it was in God's plan that we move home. It resulted in my changing colleges, which changed my career plan, which resulted in my having the ability/courage to homeschool my son, the fact that our house is paid for and we are debt free, and about a dozen more life changing events that transpired that I can trace back to that one night.

This makes no sense. God wanted you to move back to your home town, so he sent those people to give you a message. Except he didn't send them. So he did...what exactly? Sit around and hope you'd move back there? I can do that, but strangely no one builds churches to me.

Either a) He sent them, rather than inspiring them to lay down their weapons, live better lives etc, because using them as tools to improve your life was more important (a weird point of view)

Or b) He didn't send them, random events happened as they are wont to do, and you decided to use that as an impetus to do what you wanted to do anyway.

[emmiedahl]

By the same measure, you could argue that God had a plan for you in the city and that Satan was trying to scare you into going home.

[formergothardite]

This makes no sense. God wanted you to move back to your home town, so he sent those people to give you a message. Except he didn't send them. So he did...what exactly? Sit around and hope you'd move back there? I can do that, but strangely no one builds churches to me.

Either a) He sent them, rather than inspiring them to lay down their weapons, live better lives etc, because using them as tools to improve your life was more important (a weird point of view)

Or b) He didn't send them, random events happened as they are wont to do, and you decided to use that as an impetus to do what you wanted to do anyway.

Very good points and you said it much better than I can.

[ohpotteryourotter]

I"m pretty sure that in fundies' eyes, questions like that are thoughts from Satan.

This.

[Brainsample]

So, I finally got to read this. Question. How do you know when God is talking to you through people and who he chooses?I think it's somewhat dangerous to tell kids God speaks to them through teachers and parents (I've read this before) because it opens doors to abuse.

You don't know for certain. And here's the kicker -- if you've been subjected to undue influence/spiritual abuse/thought reform techniques, it is very easy to think that you really believe something and have had an "inner experience" because your brain waves have slowed down to 7-12 Htz. All of the cognitive discipline they throw at you takes you out of a beta (critical thinking) brain wave pattern, inducing slower alpha states which make you easy to program, limiting your ability to scrutinize and discern.

In a system of spiritual abuse (authoritarian, image conscious, perfectionistic, suppresses criticism, unbalanced/majors on minor, hobby horse doctrine), people can seriously mess you up. If you're in a system where there is a mediating party, and that can even be within your own family as with the Botkins (etc.), telling you what to do or limiting what you can do is a function of spiritual abuse.

The non-spiritually abusive ideal would be the wise people around you in whom you love and trust who help YOU think through circumstances in order to help you make the right choices. (But everyone does this -- it's not exclusively a Christian experience, though I'm sure many would love to define it this way.)

The way to avoid this: teach children (and adults) how to think critically. Teach them the basics of manipulation, and I think everyone on the planet should be familiar with Cialdini's list (reciprocity, commitment and consistency, social proof, liking, authority, and scarcity). Teach them self-awareness and how to refuse to comply with ideas, behavior and emotions that are inconsistent or contrary to their own. Teach them that they have usually always have a choice and can slow down or remove themselves from a situation that applies too much pressure. And there are a few books for kids (and many more for adults) about informal logical fallacy and how to spot them.

[Brainsample]

Yeah, you really don't need to explain it. I spent a lifetime believing that God "loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". Heard it all, probably parrotted it all.

The problem with this idea is that it is a sales pitch, and it is not what Jesus said. In human terms (related to suffering), it may be that the plan for your life is one of tragedy and woe since there is tragedy in this life. Jesus and Paul spoke this clearly, and we share Job's history with Judaism. Man was made for trouble as the sparks fly upward.... Be not surprised when firey trials come upon you...In this world you will have tribulation...

"God's plan for your life" may be that you suffer far more than the average person or are dirt poor (though all suffer and experience hardship as a function of being human). The "wonderful plan for your life" may be that of the redemption of your eternal soul and transformation of your character through much suffering. But some treat evangelism as though they were selling girl scout cookies.

[formergothardite]

Yeah, people only talk about God's plan for their life when the bad things lead to good things. It is skipped over when the bad things end up leading to more bad things.

[annalena]

The way to avoid this: teach children (and adults) how to think critically.

This a million times!!!

But I have a strong feeling it's 1- not exactly appreciated in religion and 2- not exactly appreciated either in society. Only with a pre-set outcome.

[MrsYoungie]

I've had a lot of trouble understanding the "God's will" thing. Most fundies seem to say that everything happens according to God's will. Therefore nothing can happen that isn't God's will. Therefore - prayer can change absolutely nothing, since God cannot (will not?) change his mind/will.

So is it therefore God's will that I am now an Atheist?

Even when I was a believer (of sorts) I never thought prayers for things or events were answered. I assumed prayer to be sort of like meditation. You could pray for wisdom, patience, understanding, etc. But praying to pass a test or cure a disease or stop a war? = totally pointless.