Fundie young men and body language.

[lexiloumarie]

I was checking in on one of the VF/fundie related blogs and noticed something interesting. I was looking for signs of interest in their body language, thinking one of the young men was maybe being pushed towards a daughter in a family they were visiting. Yeah, for her sake I hope that courtship doesn't happen because just based on body language he's more interested in her brother. Or his friend. I won't link because I have a feeling friends of theirs read here.

Which got me to thinking, is/would their be a difference in how fundies relate? Typically we learn a lot of our non-verbal communication through observance, but a lot of it is innate. So would he simply be unaware of what I think he's projecting, or sadly (can't imagine the homophobia in his circles), do we have a young gay fundie stuck in a very bad situation?

Just curious what others think, if there is anyone as nerdy about this stuff as me out there.

[Ellimenopy]

I think that considering that your chances of being gay go up with each older brother you have, I think that unfortunately we have many young gay fundies in these huge families. I think I did the calculations once, using 2% of the population normally being gay, and came up with a figure of something like 73% chance that at least one of the Duggar boys is gay.

As for your body language thing... I think that's mostly innate, so if you're picking up on homoerotic flirting, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.

[nolongerIFBx]

Keep in mind that these young men feel that they can be themselves around other young men but must constantly be reserved around young women lest their intentions be misinterpreted. Just talking to a female is considered grounds for a man to man talk with daddy about one's intentions. So it might not be that they're interested in the brother/friend just that is the only direction he can safely look in without being confronted by Big Papa.

[AnnoDomini]

Really? They can't even talk to young 'sisters in Christ'?

[lexiloumarie]

Really? They can't even talk to young 'sisters in Christ'?

Not alone, or in any meaningful not bible related way. It depends on the family though.

nolongerIFBx, that was something I was thinking. It looks really flirty, but at the same time if you have no basis for normal interaction in general. I'll for sure keep watching the family though, just to see.

[Sola]

I think that considering that your chances of being gay go up with each older brother you have, I think that unfortunately we have many young gay fundies in these huge families. I think I did the calculations once, using 2% of the population normally being gay, and came up with a figure of something like 73% chance that at least one of the Duggar boys is gay.

As for your body language thing... I think that's mostly innate, so if you're picking up on homoerotic flirting, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.

Justin Duggar completely pings my gaydar. OK he is young, but if he turned out to be gay I wouldn't at all be surprised.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Since the whole issue of human sexuality is so obssessively awkward in this movement, a young gay person may not understand what his/her body saying. Any sexual attraction toward the same gender would likely be interpretted as temptation from satan. Since marriages are frequently arranged on pragmatic terms. the lack of attraction may be disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. I suspect that a couple will be married and have a few children before the gay partner completely figures it out. When there is less urgency to reproduce and the feelings of attraction to the same sex persist despite regular access to an opposite sex partner, it becomes more difficult to deny.

Just another way the movement does not allow its members to be fully human.

[Daenerys]

Justin Duggar completely pings my gaydar. OK he is young, but if he turned out to be gay I wouldn't at all be surprised.

At least three of the Duggar boys ping mine.

If that thing about every older brother doubling your chances of being gay is true, then doesn't that make it statistically OVER 100% likely that the very youngest will be? I wonder if the researchers didn't have access to enough super-families to work out at what point this effect tails off... because it can't be the case that every seventh/twelfth/hundredth son ever born was gay.

[Brainsample]

I've heard several people who left homeschooling say that they thought too many homeschooled young men acted effete, and I've seen it, over and over. One friend called me when her son started talking with a lisp, too, along with affected behaviors. What is going on?

In addition to that, I have a friend who says that her homeschooled daughters swear that 1/3 of the guys in their co-ops, groups, and sports related homeschooling groups are bisexual or are outright gay. One kid came to a volleyball game and asked them if they could see his "santorum" (not in those terms) through his uniform. (I wish I had been their to see my friends face when her girls told her about it all on the way home from the game.)

It's truly ironic.

[lexiloumarie]

I've heard several people who left homeschooling say that they thought too many homeschooled young men acted effete, and I've seen it, over and over. One friend called me when her son started talking with a lisp, too, along with affected behaviors. What is going on?

In addition to that, I have a friend who says that her homeschooled daughters swear that 1/3 of the guys in their co-ops, groups, and sports related homeschooling groups are bisexual or are outright gay. One kid came to a volleyball game and asked them if they could see his "santorum" (not in those terms) through his uniform. (I wish I had been their to see my friends face when her girls told her about it all on the way home from the game.)

It's truly ironic.

See that makes me wonder if society and it's pressures are actually more removed in the homeschool environment, as much as I assumed you'd still have the "don't be a sissy" homophobic b.s. As much as these groups push masculinity, there isn't the peer pressure or peer models to have to conform to. So as long as Junior likes trucks, how he looks/sounds when he does it isn't as noticed or as much as a concern.

[Brainsample]

See that makes me wonder if society and it's pressures are actually more removed in the homeschool environment, as much as I assumed you'd still have the "don't be a sissy" homophobic b.s. As much as these groups push masculinity, there isn't the peer pressure or peer models to have to conform to. So as long as Junior likes trucks, how he looks/sounds when he does it isn't as noticed or as much as a concern.

So it's perhaps lack of broader socialization and experiences, or specific behaviors that go unnoticed, that contribute to some of these things?

What I'd like to know is whether there is more effete behavior in these homeschooling populations than in the general population, whether it's lower, or whether the numbers are on par with the general population. I'm at a disadvantage, because I've been around more homeschoolers than other groups. I don't have a current standard of comparison or one that is proportionate.

Ten years ago, I would never have guessed that my friends' boys would manifest this behavior, but I see it and some of them do as well. If they're schooled at home, have heterosexual role models and are sequestered from most of the exposure to sexuality in the general population, I would speculate that a greater number of kids would have more typically heterosexual type behaviors and interests.

Then, there is the over focus on gender in many of these groups, something that many in the addictions and recovery field would classify as a type of covert sexual abuse. The ramifications will be gender related as a consequence (and I find Pia Melody's theory of Love Addiction and Love Avoidance very fitting), and the group has so many traits in common with addiction. It is a type of religious addiction, depending on your perspective. So I am curious to see if that figures out in behavior that is considered related to sex.

What is the chain of causality and is there one at all? Or is this behavior just on even par with the general population?

There are Old Testament references to people lusting after and wanting certain things that God basically is said to push that which they desire down people's throats until it comes out their nostrils. There is a similar theme in the New Testament that discusses gender. So I am also looking to either prove or disprove that idea. If VF is so flipped out about homosexuality and has so much consuming fear about it, it might be God's type of irony to also give the people that with which they are most preoccupied. In all their wisdom, they thing they fear the most happens.

I guess we can figure it out in time. It may take twenty years for people to enter the midlife developmental phase before we find out -- ten or fifteen years from now.