[CW: Child Sexual Abuse] Josh and Anna Duggar 26: Smugshot™ Jermajesty Duggar

[Sky with diamonds]

Hmm, TLC keeps going to a black screen and it says station unavailable. Never had that happen before. 

[AliceUpsideDown]

I’m still thinking a lot about the insinuation that Anna is naive, and I think a lot of my comments could have been construed as that, but I think my conception of “how much did Anna know” is a little bit different.

When they lived in DC, Anna was probably the most unsupervised she’d ever been in...probably her entire life. I remember episodes where Anna would just go places by herself! (Well, her and the kids, but there were a lot fewer of them back then). And a lot of the things Josh was doing hadn’t really come to light yet. Of course, who even knows what she did or learned while she was in DC, but she probably had more opportunities to do things and learn things than she’d ever had before, or since.

When they moved back to AK, it felt like a lot of her freedom got taken away. She kept popping out kids, which probably kept her very busy, and I rarely remember seeing footage of her on CO or on social media where she wasn’t accompanied by another Duggar family member—just like the chaperones in the good old “matching shirts with my betrothed” courtship days, except with the insinuation that it’s just Anna who can’t be let out unsupervised. And then especially when she was at the TTH full time; I can’t imagine her hanging out at the Big House using the homeschool computers to Google Daddy’s fed raid. The family seems to have kept her very close, and very busy, maybe with lots of opportunities for “this is all a big misunderstanding from Satan’s minions the Feds” propaganda sprinkled in.

On top of that, I think there’s probably another big thing that keeps her feeling stuck. My disclaimer here is that I didn’t grow up in a fundie background, but I have a handful of friends who all deconverted from different fundie sects (none Duggar adjacent though... I never knew there were so many different flavors of fundie). From what they’ve told me, they all have one thing in common. As someone who believes that heaven and hell are social constructs, they don’t really have any power over me. And when I think of heaven and hell as “don’t do bad stuff or you go to the burny place”, I don’t really understand why it has power over anyone. But to the people I know who have been in fundie life, it’s not that. Heaven isn’t just a place where you sit around thinking about how good you were. Heaven is where you see everyone you’ve ever loved who has died. What Anna has been taught is that if she doesn’t do what she learned in church, she will never see anyone she’s ever loved again. Not now, because they all have been taught to have a similar fear and will probably cut ties, and not Erin the afterlife either. Her relatives. Her childhood pets. Friends who may have died tragically earlier in her life. FFS, any children she miscarried. All of those people are supposedly waiting in Heaven right now, ready to welcome her home, and if she steps out of line they’ll be gone from her forever. And not only that. One day her children will die, and so will anyone she ever loved in this life. They’ll get to Heaven, ready to be a family again, and she won’t be there. Sure, she can leave her family now, and she’ll make new friends, but then one day they’ll die and be gone forever, and so will she. And for people who don’t care about the afterlife, like me, that’s fine. But to her it might be devastating.

It also seems like, again from ex-fundies I know, that the things that people can say or do to you in this life (like a Fed raid, or people from outside the religion calling you names, or anything like that) is just dust in the wind, a momentary discomfort compared with what you lose forever if you step out of line, or even question too much. And forever is a very, very long time compared to a human life if you really believe in it. Again, I know nothing about Anna’s views on Josh’s behavior. She may not think he’s going to Heaven for the things he’s done. But she may still believe that she has a chance to secure a future eternally for her and her kids, and as far as I know fundies are only taught one way to do that. Again, it’s a powerful threat if you really believe in it, which I don’t, but fundies usually do.
 

I would definitely encourage any ex-fundies on here to let me know if that’s wrong, I know I’m working with limited information. But since these are accounts from multiple fundie branches with the same message, I gather it’s similar across a lot of fundie religions.

[SnarkyLawyer]

23 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

If it is true. I take Fundie Reddit amas with a grain of salt. The mods don’t always do the best job verifying.

I'm not big Reddit user, but I can see that might be a problem. If I remember correctly, this forum was hoodwinked a couple of times, as well. Did any of his answers raise red flags, as if he were either fishing for information or trolling?

[Lgirlrocks]

21 minutes ago, Jacked said:

Who is TAM? 

Thanks in advance.

The activist mom. She, Elizabeth Johnson, has ten kids and constantly talks about how wrong abortion and porn is. She is known for harassing working at PP. her husband cheated on her, not sure for how long. She eventually left him. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Jacked said:

I wonder if it’s possible there may be a state case forthcoming, also? That would provide more protection (time-wise) against additional victims being harmed at Josh’s hands.

Look up Jessica Kent’s YT channel. She tells us how AR women’s prisons are. Doesn’t sound like a fun time to me. 
 

Does anyone know if AR law (or federal law) provides for post-incarceration civil commitment for the treatment of sex offenders? It’s common practice in many states and allows for those at high risk of reoffending to be committed to treatment in a lockdown facility for an indefinite length of time. In the case of the nation’s first sexual predator treatment program, more participants have left the program through the end of their natural life than successful completion. I would attribute this to those individuals lacking the cognitive capacity to participate in the treatment program. Some of the participants have actually asked to remain in the controlled treatment environment for the remainder of their lives because they acknowledge they are entirely unable to control their compulsions and don’t want to cause any additional harm to persons/children by offending again.

I applaud the choice to stay in a controlled environment to protect children from themselves.  I don't think someone like Josh would ever be capable that kind of self-sacrifice.  

I am glad this is a thing and hope whatever needs to be done that Josh and any other predator is kept in some kind of confinement indefinitely until it can be proven they are safe and will not reoffend.

As that can't ever be proven I think it should be lifelong.  

[ma_demoiselle]

38 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm assuming you mean best case for him.  Because best case for society and his children would be him getting the max on both counts served consecutively.

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure there’s a mandatory minimum of five years for such a charge, isn’t there? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

@luvtolaugh...I get it. I was just thinking that a) he was using the legal terminology, and expanding on that to show he felt it was abusive, and b) as legalistic as Ben is, he could feel that by specifying child pornography, he'd imply that he approved of other forms of pornography...something we know he does not. Since he has been fairly quiet on social media lately, I think this is a big statement for him. I understand why you interpret it the way you do, though...for most people, not specifically condemning child pornography WOULD be minimizing it, and the family distancing would be suspect. With a belief system and enmeshed family dynamics like Ben's, though, I think Jim Bob is going to be FURIOUS and view it as Ben not following his lead. 

Perhaps there have been more incidents like this, where Ben does not Play Well With Jim Bob. I wonder if that is the real reason they have remained in the tiny house...to not be indebted to The Boob, who grants favors to the faithful, but can always take them away and give you a windowless warehouse to live in, instead...

Fwiw I read it the way @luv2laugh did, but I can see your points, too and I certainly hope you're right.

[Not that josh's mom]

The statements by JB/M, Jeremy/Jinger and Ben/Jessa are just rewording of the same statement. Safe, no commitment and not a personal response at all. I'd like to know what's being said in their homes and JB's hurriedly called family meetings. Personally I believe there is a lot of anger, absolute horror and distancing going on. Either they are going to have to completely disappear or go back to their normal instagram happiness. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, ma_demoiselle said:

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure there’s a mandatory minimum of five years for such a charge, isn’t there? 

Someone just posted that some have gotten 3.5 years.

[kachuu]

I refresh after reading one page and there’s 3 more I need to catch up on ??

[BernRul]

Apologies if this was posted (I'm still trying to catch up and I've got a newborn trying to take up my attention  lol), but there's a thread on r/duggarsnark  from someone claiming to be Josh's childhood friend. Don't know how legit, but some interesting points

1. He knew Josh sinned but the details weren't known. He thought it was just porn and Josh was closed off.

2. Josh was always an attention whore  but a little less hammy in real life. The poster  found  him often closed  off and smart.

3. Josh sometimes had bitter rants about his parents. Not sure what about. JB viewed him as the golden child as did men in the cult. The sisters were closed off with him, and he thinks Michelle had some shame.

4. Says Josh was a computer/electronics geek. I think I remember  him being into the filming equipment  and editing in the early specials. But that makes it likely he was knowledgeable  enough to navigate the dark web/get a vpn.

[fluffernutter]

I've had two thoughts that keeping creeping up since this all broke out. The first- what if he is found not guilty or just has community service or some other "slap on the hand" type of sentence? The second- if that happens, will his family, both immediate and extended, just welcome him back into the fold all over again? With statements like "satan had a stronghold" and "he has been praying extensively" and "we are told to forgive" on and on. It makes me feel sick to even think about it. I am completely uninformed on how crimes and trials and stuff unfold- is this a strong possibility? I had typed this up yesterday but wasn't sure if speculating on this was ok. I just can't get it out of my head. 

[Mama Mia]

8 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

I don't have a clear idea of how this works. But I think that Josh would have been informed at some point that he was the target of an investigation. (Back during the November 2019 raid?) I can't believe he didn't inform his parents since he is used to being bailed out by them. (But did he tell them that there might be images of CSA involved or just use the catch-all "pornography.") Perhaps all of three of them thought that the Trump admin would make the charges go away, or, at least, there would be insufficient evidence found to make the charges. Since a happy state of denial seems to be the Duggar stock in trade, perhaps they just figured it would all work out. Praise God!

However, at some point, Josh was told to turn himself in by the Federal agents. How many days warning was he given?  

 

I would think with this type of raid, where it’s been described as part of a long term on-going investigation designed to catch as many people as possible - and maybe even find and save some victims —- that the feds would try to keep quiet what the raid was about and be as vague as possible. If they are raiding businesses - particularly a used car lot! that seems pretty easy — it could be anything about fenced cars, or cars used for smuggling then offloaded . or a car used in a kidnapping or murder or drugs....  there are a lot of reasons Josh could have told his family ( possibly even convinced himself ) were the reason. 

He could have been telling himself he’d deleted the images and if it somehow came up try to pass it off as a “barely legal” type video but , oops, they weren’t  —- obviously not the case with young children and not believable with his charges —  but addicts and criminals use a huge number of convoluted ways of deluding themselves, and attempting to delude others. 
 

 

[FrozenSmile]

Ben’s statement just seems like a mashup of JB & Jeremy’s statements.

Something that stuck out to me was the wording in Jeremy’s statement. He (or whoever wrote it) says “While this case must go through the legal system...” The main words here are “must go through”. They are taught that there is a legal heirarchy, which means that God’s law trumps man’s law. If the law of the land doesn’t mesh with what scripture teaches, then they are to follow scripture. For example, the whole “spare the rod, spoil the child” thing. Yes, there is a scripture that says that. It is also taken completely out of context. But they are taught that it is to be taken literally, and that if you don’t use corporal punishment with your child then you are failing as a parent. When Josh was a teenager, it was easy for them to quietly try to “fix” him by using “God’s law”, and not getting the actual law involved. The Ashley Madison thing wasn’t illegal (If i’m remembering correctly), so they could again use “God’s law” to try to “fix” him again. This, though, “must go through” the legal system, so they have no choice but to let “man’s law” win out here. And we all can agree that they do NOT like that at all, because the control is gone.

It also implies, at least to me, that they would have tried to handle it on their own if they’d had the opportunity, which, yikes.

And holy cow, 20 new replies since i started typing this out. Y’all are hard to keep up with!

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, FiveAcres said:

I don't have a clear idea of how this works. But I think that Josh would have been informed at some point that he was the target of an investigation. (Back during the November 2019 raid?) I can't believe he didn't inform his parents since he is used to being bailed out by them. (But did he tell them that there might be images of CSA involved or just use the catch-all "pornography.") Perhaps all of three of them though the Trump admin would make the charges go away, or, at least, there would be insufficient evidence found to make the charges. Since a happy state of denial seems to be the Duggar stock in trade, perhaps they just figured it would all work out. Praise God!

However, at some point, Josh was told to turn himself in by the Federal agents. How many days warning was he given?  

I only know one person who's been raided by the FBI and convicted and sentenced, so some thoughts just based on this.

They wouldn't have told him anything before, during or after the raid.  When BIL's house was unexpectedly raided by the FBI at 3 am, they were polite, professional, slightly apologetic for waking them up, but said nothing else.   Wife wasn't arrested until about 10 months later (financial crimes). She knew what she'd done, so it wasn't a huge mystery to her, but she literally heard nothing further until then and was beginning to semi-hope everything would blow over.  It didn't.   When she was finally notified, she had the option of showing up on her own to be arrested and processed, which she did.  Unlike Josh, she was not held, but she wouldn't have been considered a public security risk as sex offenders are.  So I'm not convinced he had the option of turning himself in. 

Being a D minus celeb, Josh couldn't hide the fact that his "business" was raided as the news hit the internet.  So his family knew something was up, but Josh could technically claim he didn't know what it was all as about, because he didn't know with 100% certainty until he was arrested.  But who knows what he told Anna and his parents or when he told them.   Something I'd like to know...

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, SnarkyLawyer said:

I'm not big Reddit user, but I can see that might be a problem. If I remember correctly, this forum was hoodwinked a couple of times, as well. Did any of his answers raise red flags, as if he were either fishing for information or trolling?

Yeah -  major thoughts and prayers for the mods on the Duggar sub over there.  An influx like this is a modding nightmare - especially there where new accounts can be made in seconds and you have to ban like swatting flies that regenerate if it gets ugly.   I haven't been over there, but will check out the AMA in a bit.

You can IP ban, but that's at a level above mods if I'm not mistaken and getting the attention to actual reddit mods (as opposed to sub mods) requires an act of God.

And for sure we have been hoodwinked.  It's the nature of forums...skepticism serves readers well.

[Snarkasarus Rex]

2 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

I've had two thoughts that keeping creeping up since this all broke out. The first- what if he is found not guilty or just has community service or some other "slap on the hand" type of sentence? The second- if that happens, will his family, both immediate and extended, just welcome him back into the fold all over again? With statements like "satan had a stronghold" and "he has been praying extensively" and "we are told to forgive" on and on. It makes me feel sick to even think about it. I am completely uninformed on how crimes and trials and stuff unfold- is this a strong possibility? I had typed this up yesterday but wasn't sure if speculating on this was ok. I just can't get it out of my head. 

If he’s convicted, he will get jail time, but it may not be the many years we all want.

Although there is a significant chance he’ll be convicted, I still do worry a lot about an acquittal. They will ramp up the persecution narrative to 11 and they’ll be back on TLC like nothing ever happened. 

[seraaa]

6 minutes ago, FrozenSmile said:

Ben’s statement just seems like a mashup of JB & Jeremy’s statements.

Something that stuck out to me was the wording in Jeremy’s statement. He (or whoever wrote it) says “While this case must go through the legal system...” The main words here are “must go through”. They are taught that there is a legal heirarchy, which means that God’s law trumps man’s law. If the law of the land doesn’t mesh with what scripture teaches, then they are to follow scripture. For example, the whole “spare the rod, spoil the child” thing. Yes, there is a scripture that says that. It is also taken completely out of context. But they are taught that it is to be taken literally, and that if you don’t use corporal punishment with your child then you are failing as a parent. When Josh was a teenager, it was easy for them to quietly try to “fix” him by using “God’s law”, and not getting the actual law involved. The Ashley Madison thing wasn’t illegal (If i’m remembering correctly), so they could again use “God’s law” to try to “fix” him again. This, though, “must go through” the legal system, so they have no choice but to let “man’s law” win out here. And we all can agree that they do NOT like that at all, because the control is gone.

It also implies, at least to me, that they would have tried to handle it on their own if they’d had the opportunity, which, yikes.

And holy cow, 20 new replies since i started typing this out. Y’all are hard to keep up with!

I think they do accept the law, but vey other avenue must be exhausted first before you resort to it. I'm not an expert, though, and happy to be corrected.

This article discusses authority

Edited May 1, 2021 by seraaa

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, subsaharanafrica said:

Tara Reade did not accuse Biden of putting his hand on her shoulder. She accused him of sexual assault

It was not a credible claim. And her story has completely fallen apart under investigation.

Reporting in May by several major outlets uncovered huge inconsistencies and she even lost her lawyer over it. Her friend admitted Reade asked her to lie about her recollections, all 74 of Biden former staffers said they never witnessed inappropriate behavior, and her story completely changed. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/tara-reade-loses-attorney-joe-biden-allegation.amp

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/05/tara-reade-joe-biden-allegation-reporting-vox-pbs-doubts.html

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-74-former-biden-staffers-think-about-tara-reades-allegations

Edited May 1, 2021 by nausicaa

[JillyO]

9 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I never really thought about it, but your German friend is right. I am Italian and in my language expressions like "grammar nazi" don't exist. When we define someone or something "nazista" or "fascista" we really mean it. We don't throw around those terms casually as it happens in many English sayings. Different perspectives I suppose.

Yup. Another example of this: the interns on Grey’s Anatomy (early seasons) give Dr. Bailey the nickname “Nazi” because she’s strict. (Mostly) white people calling a black woman nazi because she was a strict boss. My head just about exploded the first few times it happened. And I still cringe any time someone casually throws around the word nazi. Growing up in Germany, we absolutely did not use that term unless we were talking about actual nazis. 

[Kjaerringa]

I have a question regarding the bond requirements. I know it it is common in cases involving abuse of minors in any form, whether sexual, physical, or through a CP charge, to require the defendent either not have contact with ANY minor children or to not live with them. I am not as familiar with the requirement that there be another adult living with the accused to serve as his....what? Supervisor? Accountability partner?

Is thisa common occurrence? Could this have been a request by Jim Bob?? There was nothing in the bond requirements indicating he had to stay away from internet use, nor did it specify WHO would be Josh's guardian, or what sort of authority they would have over him. It sounded very loosey goosey, which, of course, made me immediately think of the Boob.

[fluffernutter]

@Snarkasarus Rex I think we need a worry reaction. That's what I'm afraid will happen.

[kmachete14]

“we stand against any form of pornography” and the rest of the statement isn’t progressive for me. It lumps everything together. Similar to how they view pedophilia & homosexuality as the exact same level of sin/deviance. This is in part how they got into this mess!! 

[FiveAcres]

1 minute ago, kmachete14 said:

“we stand against any form of pornography” and the rest of the statement isn’t progressive for me. It lumps everything together. Similar to how they view pedophilia & homosexuality as the exact same level of sin/deviance. This is in part how they got into this mess!! 

Yes. It really grates that they equate a teenager spending some quality time with a Victoria's Secret Catalog and some lotion in a private place with sexually assaulting your siblings. 

[LilMissMetaphor]

I had not heard of child porn being called CSA until just today/yesterday.  It is good to know things and learn new things.  In that spirit, I'll point out that there's a difference between perverse and perverted--I think people often use the former to mean the latter.