To anyone who abhors college simply because it's "expensive"

[Wolfie]

For those who think that they can't get a job that they are "overqualified" for, you might be surprised. I know many people who work in foodservice or retail with bachelors and graduate degrees. Sometimes it is because they can't get anything else, and sometimes it is because they prefer it.

(of course there is also a cousin who thinks he will be part of the one percent someday, but will be stuck barely making it because he IS lazy. He goes to work when he feels like it, and stays home when he doesn't. He also refuses to do the work to get a college degree- our grandparents would have helped him when they were alive.)

[JesusFightClub]

The problem is, when you ARE working that hard and it's the only way you can see to make it ahead at all (we can't all drop out and work toward the revolution and bank on that coming through before we're too old to work), you HAVE TO believe it's going to work, or how would you keep going?

And then if it doesn't work, if something goes wrong and you get stuck in the low-paid job, there's this horrible emotional crisis. Lots of people get depressed, or angry at someone else (horizontal aggression) for "stealing" their job or "stealing" their place in school or whatever. Those are the folks who the We are the 99% are reaching out to - trying to aim their anger at some of the real culprits, and also eventually at something useful.

If it does work, that just reinforces the "Work hard and succeed!" worldview, and those people turn into smug bastards who are all "I got mine, fuck you" and feel fine advocating that (now that they're out of school) public university funding should be cut and (as long as it doesn't hit them) retirement age should go up and (since they have health insurance) public health insurance costs should be capped. BECAUSE NOBODY HELPED THEM, right?

I seriously have come more and more to think the libertarian/fiscally conservative-except-for-roads-and-wars attitude is a trauma response in a lot of people.[/

quote]

An excellent and interesting point. I wonder what makes some people exhibit this response? I could find a political explanation with ease, but psychologically? That must factor in.

I am permanently broke, carry so much debt even the collectors stopped bothering me, rent and will never be able to afford a house or a mortgage, live in a deprived area, work in a low paid job and spend all my spare time working towards the revolution :) It's what has to be done. But the OP made me sad, as I had a small dream.

Back in the mists of time I applied and was accepted onto a postgrad program to study a subject I am fascinated by. I know I could have done a good job. But although my degree and written evidence were good enough that I was accepted, I could not raise the funding, no matter how I tried. It's political science, not hard science, business or maths, and the funding is just not there.

Now, realistically, it won't ever happen. I don't spend too much time on it because regrets don't help, but I would have liked to become an academic and study that subject. Although the passion I had has been replaced by others, it's a bit like looking back and saying sadly "What if..." and I do that sometimes...

The emotional crisis is real. It's going to be even worse for generations of youngins priced out of even getting to do the undergrad or college course they dream of.

What will their response be? Rage? Acceptance? Self hatred? Servility?

[emmiedahl]

My husband spent more than a year applying for every job in town. A few actually told him he was overqualified, others simply did not hire him. I think it is not so much the degree as the two decades of business management experience; it makes the managers think they might have some competition if they hire him. Age is another issue; older workers don't fit well into the youthful employee culture at Taco Bell (etc) and thus managers will go with the 16 year old.

We need to decide as a country whether we want to force corporations to treat their employees well via legislation or if we simply want to tax the living fuck out of them and have the government ensure that people are cared for. I don't really see any other options...

There is an OWS rally in my area, but it is at the same time as a hand-me-down exchange and I really fucking need clothing that fits so I will probably miss it. :(

[slickcat79]

Yeah I found the tumblr for the "I am the 53%" and had to ragequit the page when one bootstrapper was bragging about working three jobs to get by. The comments were praising her for this and saying this is what everyone should do. Like maybe if we had a functioning economy then no one would have to do some crazy ass juggling act with three part time jobs. I know an acquaintance who went from having a full time job with benefits to having to get three part time jobs at a lower hourly rate of pay and pay for her own health insurance. She can still keep food on the table and a roof over her head but it just isn't a very stable or mentally healthy situation

Apparently someone else had the same reaction to the 53% tumblr, so they started "Actually, you're the 47%": http://actuallyyourethe47percent.tumblr.com/

They actually posted what I suspect is the OP's link, followed by the comment, "HMMM NOT SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT ‘THE 99%’ MEANS, AND YOUR BROKE @$$ IS #NOTTHE53PERCENT". You're not required to identify with the 99%, but it doesn't make you their enemy.

There's nothing wrong with feeling pride in self-sufficiency. I do, and I love that feeling. I do/have done a lot of the things that the girl in the poster has done, but I understand that luck plays a big part in that.

[jaelh]

i really like the model in AU - you make a "co-pay" towards your fees, on a sliding scale depending on the subject/expenses associated.

Eg: Law and Arts, the government has determined it cots 11K per year: law students chip in $9K, arts students $4.5K.

You can defer the contribution you have to make - repayment is through your taxes. You pay a higher % once you hit a certain income (I think it's 46K). The debt is indexed only to inflation. If you're not earning enough to hit the threshold, you don't have to pay.

All research degres (MPhil + PhD) are free to residents and citizens.

While the fees are inching up and up and up (and hell, I'd *much* prefer no fees - i'm paying $100 a week for 10 years, but that's for two graduate degrees and an undergrad), the payment structure makes so much sense. You can take time off to have kids, travel, do volunteer work etc... I believe the repayment rate is something like 98% (taxes are hard to avoid!).

Was into a great US law school, but total cost in AU was about 1/2 of the cost for one semester at said school. Did not chose the US school. Accruing that kind of debt dictates what one is able to do for a life time. That strikes me as the real barbarity of the fees in the states: a huge segment of a generation is trapped before they're 20.

[Wolfie]

Just curious- for those who practice law- doesn't it make more sense to go to law school in the country where you intend to practice?

[kayray]

For those who think that they can't get a job that they are "overqualified" for, you might be surprised. I know many people who work in foodservice or retail with bachelors and graduate degrees. Sometimes it is because they can't get anything else, and sometimes it is because they prefer it.

(of course there is also a cousin who thinks he will be part of the one percent someday, but will be stuck barely making it because he IS lazy. He goes to work when he feels like it, and stays home when he doesn't. He also refuses to do the work to get a college degree- our grandparents would have helped him when they were alive.)

Of course there are people in retail with bachelors and graduate degrees. Often a bachelors gets you little more these days. Bachelor's degrees are a dime a dozen now - the new "minimum" in some areas. Some graduate degrees don't get you far either. I know from personal experience. Further, my husband now works in retail management after a couple degrees and plenty of other specialized experience and enjoys it. However, he was told MANY times that he had way too much experience and education - many employers saw him as either a flight risk due to boredom or better offers OR a threat to their own position (I can see the latter, given how quickly he has been accelerated through responsibilities where he works now).

Further in my experience, my friends specifically with JD's have a VERY hard time getting these sorts of jobs and regularly get the "you are too qualified and are going to run off for a law job as soon as one comes by" response. Lots of potential employers have very set ideas about what sorts of jobs someone with a JD should be doing, and they generally do not involve anything other than being some sort of "fancy lawyer" (usually not said fondly!).

[emmiedahl]

i really like the model in AU - you make a "co-pay" towards your fees, on a sliding scale depending on the subject/expenses associated.

WHat is the exchange rate like? It sounds like you guys are paying the same or a little more than the US for undergrad.

[lilwriter85]

I just saw the pic from break.com. That girl is a brat and I agree with another poster, the father probably wrote it. Yes, some people do end up in debt due to bad decisions but some don't. But that girl can't know the many situations people are in. She should be glad that her dad still has a job in computer engineering. I know someone with a computer science degree who lost his job in the Denver area. It was a high paying software engineering job. He and his wife had to move back to their hometown were he a got IT job with a small company.

Also getting a degree in biology doesn't always guarantee that you will get a job. A high school friend of mine has a degree in biology and he has trouble finding work in his field. One of the comments on break.com was from a person with a biology degree who is still broke.

[emmiedahl]

My oldest brother's degree is in Biology, but he was given an internship at the Department of Defense and now writes security code for them (he is a total computer geek). He was lucky to get that break because despite graduating summa cum laude from one of the top university biology programs in the world, he was not offered a job in his field. They all require a masters or more. He also is debt free, but it took him ten years to finish a Bachelor's because he would not take out a loan.

[lilwriter85]

Yeah, except I can't find scholarships because my GPA in high school was only 3.61 AND I can't find any jobs, AND I have student loans. Oh, did I mention I'll have to drop out because I have no money left except for necessities? Yeah, my parents' income changed so I lost a ton of federal aid this year other than the loans, and the Republicans in the NC state legislature took away a huge grant.

"Bad decisions" my ass. Fucking self-righteous cow. "Oh look at me, I LIVE SO FRUGALLY and go to a MODERATELY PRICED state college!" Yeah, I live as frugally as possible as well on the money I've been saving up (ALSO since I was 17). But nooo, I'm in the situation I'm in because of "bad decisions."

Elitist CUNT.

I have no problems with those who graduate college debt-free. Good for y'all, and I mean that sincerely. But I hate it when they have to rub it in the faces of those who love college but can't stay in thanks to NOT HAVING ANY FUCKING MONEY and not having the right grades- or rather, the right INTERESTS- in high school. About 80% of the scholarships I came across were for math, science, or nursing. None of which I want as a career.

That happened to me too, when I was researching scholarships during my junior and senior years. I never did extremely well in math and science, so I had a hard time finding certain scholarships.

[Kitty]

That happened to me too, when I was researching scholarships during my junior and senior years. I never did extremely well in math and science, so I had a hard time finding certain scholarships.

I do okay in science, especially biology, but I'm horrid at math. And I hate the idea of nursing. I had a shit-ton of people tell me in high school I should do it just because it paid well and that nursing was a good, steady job. Fuck that shit, there are well-paying jobs out there that are just as steady. I don't have to stick needles in people or wipe their asses day in and day out. Education appealed to me far more, but when I looked at the Teaching Fellows scholarship you needed a 4.0 GPA to even be considered.

[lilwriter85]

I do okay in science, especially biology, but I'm horrid at math. And I hate the idea of nursing. I had a shit-ton of people tell me in high school I should do it just because it paid well and that nursing was a good, steady job. Fuck that shit, there are well-paying jobs out there that are just as steady. I don't have to stick needles in people or wipe their asses day in and day out. Education appealed to me far more, but when I looked at the Teaching Fellows scholarship you needed a 4.0 GPA to even be considered.

I used to have relatives tell me during my senior year of high school about nursing. I think I might have done ok with the pre-reqs, but I'm like you I hate the idea of nursing. I don't think I would be comfortable sticking needles or doing duties. One high school friend of mine who did well in biology and chemistry started college off with the intention of going into nursing, but over time the career didn't appeal to her so she focused on education and is now a high school chemistry teacher.

[jaelh]

Exchange rate goes all over the place - sometimes it's 50 US cents to a dollar, right now its parity.

Re we pay the same - Depends on the school in the US you're comparing to. the best schools in the country charge the same as the worst. Your best schools in the country are far more expensive than the community college down the road. No one is going to pass up going to a better school as many persons on this thread report, because it's not going to cost them any more. Further, if you can pay the costs upfront, the rate is 20% lower than the figures I provided.

But the bit I like is the repayment structure: you don't have to make a payment if you're not making enough money. These are not commercial loans; there is no minimum monthly repayment. If you want to take off 12 months, do it. If you can't find work - no hassles. It's a wonderful system.

[jaelh]

Exchange rate goes all over the place - sometimes it's 50 US cents to a dollar, right now its parity.

Re we pay the same - Depends on the school in the US you're comparing to. the best schools in the country charge the same as the worst. Your best schools in the country are far more expensive than the community college down the road. No one is going to pass up going to a better school as many persons on this thread report, because it's not going to cost them any more. Further, if you can pay the costs upfront, the rate is 20% lower than the figures I provided.

But the bit I like is the repayment structure: you don't have to make a payment if you're not making enough money. These are not commercial loans; there is no minimum monthly repayment. If you want to take off 12 months, do it. If you can't find work - no hassles. It's a wonderful system.

I should contextualise the cost though - our cost of living is much higher than yours. So $ for $ might be equal, but what $1 buys in AU is a fraction of what it buys in the US. Here, the minimum wage is $18 an hour; clothing is up to twice the price of the states, food usually 30% more, fuel about $2 more per gallon. Wages are also *much* higher.

The effective cost of education is thus a much lower % of income/expenses. $ for $ not an accurate picture.

[treemom]

HOW???? I stated that it's POSSIBLE to graduate without loans, and that I did it. What is so wrong with that?? I didn't judge anyone. I simply posted a link to a photo because I thought that the message showed that not everyone graduates in crazy debt. :(

I did it too snarky kitty and I didn't exactly grow up in the middle class. But debt was scary to me so I took a long time to get through school basically.

That doesn't mean I am better than anyone, just that state schools in Memphis in the early and mid nineties were inexpensive and I made different choices based on different priorities.

But I am a dirty socialist that thinks college or trade school should be free for everyone.

[treemom]

First, with so many of us here and all over the country in dire financial straits, posting a "neener-neener, I am so much better than you!" photo without a disclaimer will get a negative reaction.

Second, it is almost impossible to graduate from college now without some debt unless you have family help or are just really lucky in the scholarship lottery. I did college without help 15 years ago and I did it without debt, as a single parent. The game has changed.

Third, "I am not one of the 99 percent." Um, yeah, the person who wrote that sign probably is. It's like saying you aren't on a battlefield because you haven't been shot yet, while bullets are whistling past your ears and you are stepping over dead bodies.

And the first time s/he gets sick without insurance or has her job outsourced, she'll get it and then feel like an asshole for ever posting that shit.

You Cana in Memphis still. Tuition for full time is low and if you graduate with a c average you get an automatic 1500 dollar lottery scholarship. That is over half the tutition for 2 full time semesters at university of Memphis. Housing is cheap here and costs of living are low. You can work at FedEx hub and make about 12/hr as an unskilled worker.

It is possible in some areas, even know.

[onlyorganic]

I don't mean to pull you all in a different direction... but which fundie male was it who blamed the current job market on women who should be at home instead taking the jobs of good Christian men? Or was it Zsu who said it? Anyways, it's not just college debt, I genuinely despise when anyone rubs their "debt-free" status in the faces of others. Like the Duggars, gah. I think my husband and I would have a lot less debt if TLC made a 1-hour special about us and decided to build us a sweet home to help house all of the decisions we made.

[YPestis]

The original post was removed so I have missed all the excitement of the past few days.

Being a life long student, I know plenty about freakin', stupid student loans so I feel obligated to put in my two cents. I have plenty of loans and consider myself a judicial spender. I know people who get away with no loans as undergrad, even those who went to expensive, private schools. I don't think those that snipe about winning the "scholarship lotto" is being fair to those that receive scholarships. I know people who went on full scholarships or cobbled together multiple scholarships to pay for college. They weren't "lucky". Well, unless by lucky, you mean they were gifted with a brilliant mind. Most of those "lucky" scholarship winners worked their tail off to get them. They were "lucky" enough to be studying on Friday and Saturday nights. They were "lucky" enough to be working on extracurricular projects late into the evening. I don't begrudge those that had the grades and transcripts for scholarships. They worked hard and they got what they deserved.

I was not one of those smarties who could win scholarships everywhere. I also worked hard and got into schools which fell into my budget with some scholarships and financial aid cobbled together. I ended up with loans. It wasn't that I did anything bad, or I was a spender. I just wanted to attend a school with a solid pre-professional program and it happened to be kind of pricey. I don't think I am a bad person for it. I don't think I'm less of a hard worker than those that won full scholarships. I just happen to set my eyes on things that are a bit beyond my budget and required some borrowing to finance.

I received a solid education at a great institution and it helped to open a few doors that otherwise would have been closed. Every person's circumstance is different. I don't like to judge others' borrowing habits. I don't know their situation. I don't know their goals. I see smart kids with full scholarships attending programs/schools that I feel are "below" their talents. I see dumb, rich kids attending programs that they pay through the nose for because they "liked" the program. To each their own. As long as it fits people's life goals, does it matter if a little debt is involved?

College education means different things to different people. People seek it out for careers and personal growth. Rich and poor people alike receive it. As long as people are responsible about their spending habits and have a clearly defined path for their degree, I say more power to them. Take that degree and run with it!

[emmiedahl]

You Cana in Memphis still. Tuition for full time is low and if you graduate with a c average you get an automatic 1500 dollar lottery scholarship. That is over half the tutition for 2 full time semesters at university of Memphis. Housing is cheap here and costs of living are low. You can work at FedEx hub and make about 12/hr as an unskilled worker.

It is possible in some areas, even know.

Just out of curiosity, do more people seem to get degrees there? That seems so, well, cheap. Like I'd be sending my cat to college because why not? :dance: I know I have given these stats before, but my state college costs about 12K per year in tuition and a little less than half of that was covered by various non-loan sources in my case. With a great GPA and all the volunteer/leadership that one could ask for. I'm jealous a bit.

[treemom]

Just out of curiosity, do more people seem to get degrees there? That seems so, well, cheap. Like I'd be sending my cat to college because why not? :dance: I know I have given these stats before, but my state college costs about 12K per year in tuition and a little less than half of that was covered by various non-loan sources in my case. With a great GPA and all the volunteer/leadership that one could ask for. I'm jealous a bit.

I got my bachelors and masters for less than that, including books.

And no, because while Memphis has a low cost of living we have a big under class and major socioeconomic issues. Other state schools cost more here but u of m is a fine school and I am ok with it. I did have a scholarship at liberty u. But nothing transferred from several years there so I had to do it all over again.

[emmiedahl]

It's interesting that there are so many regional differences. It almost makes me wish that there was some sort of national control, but that might lead to higher tuition for many states so there would be too many people inconvenienced.

I wonder if people who do not identify with the 99% movement are from states where college is more affordable and thus don't quite understand what other people are talking about.

[Kelya]

I looked into graduate school in TN, just because it seemed so affordable and I want to work with the rural poor. Even without any funding, graduate school would be like a quarter of the price of one year the my private college (which I didn't pay full price for, but still paid tons!).

[pomology]

I missed the OP's link, but that second note just pisses me off.

Cuz everybody with a degree in biology is employed? Um, yeah. Not so much. I have a friend who graduated from college this past year who majored in biology and could not find a job. 13 year old who wrote that note should STFU until she is considerably older and has learned that she doesn't know everything. I know that I was like that at 13, too, but at least I wasn't posting obnoxious shit on the internet.

[treemom]

It's interesting that there are so many regional differences. It almost makes me wish that there was some sort of national control, but that might lead to higher tuition for many states so there would be too many people inconvenienced.

I wonder if people who do not identify with the 99% movement are from states where college is more affordable and thus don't quite understand what other people are talking about.

The ones in memphis who don't get it don't get it for political reasons, or don't think they are hurt by the 1%

I fall into the 3-5% based on household and much lower if just on what I make but still a lot in comparison to my community. I get the 99% but then it makes me confused why they make choices that seem counterintuitive.