Is this for real? Ultra Orthodox vs Girls School

[Mompom]

I'm not sure if this is being played up by the media or not, but the story was disturbing. I can't imagine being those girls.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It's absolutely real. There have been quite a few links to English-language Israeli media on the issue over at Failed Messiah. There's video on YouTube also, some has subtitles, some doesn't, but it's just crazy.

[longskirts]

Sadly it is for real.

[docmom]

Fundamentalism is scary no matter what the flavour. If seeing young girls on the way to school outrages your sense of modesty, then I respectfully suggest that you not look at them.

[VeraAnne]

Nothing can ever be worse than the Saudi "Morality Police" pushing girls back into a burning school because they weren't covered.

[Kelya]

Yeah, its pretty sickening. Those protesters really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

They look like a similar group that protested bicycle lanes in their neighborhoods in New York City (I think Crown Heights?) because it brought immodestly dressed women to their neighborhood. There's a few other examples of extremist Orthodox Jews making themselves just as ridiculous and annoying as extremist Christians. It really hammers home to me that the religion isn't the problem, extremism is. Since I have a bad relationship with Christianity, I tend to focus more on how awful extremist Christianity is, but more and more I'm realizing its less the religion and more the extremist idea that is the problem.

[clibbyjo]

That is disgusting! What of the Orthodox fathers went over to the ultra girls school and yelled named at their girls? How would they like their wives and daughters being treated that way?

[Mompom]

Yeah, its pretty sickening. Those protesters really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

They look like a similar group that protested bicycle lanes in their neighborhoods in New York City (I think Crown Heights?) because it brought immodestly dressed women to their neighborhood. There's a few other examples of extremist Orthodox Jews making themselves just as ridiculous and annoying as extremist Christians. It really hammers home to me that the religion isn't the problem, extremism is. Since I have a bad relationship with Christianity, I tend to focus more on how awful extremist Christianity is, but more and more I'm realizing its less the religion and more the extremist idea that is the problem.

You summed up my current thoughts on the matter. Extremism in any form can be oppressive. I have more experience in Christianity, but these things are eye openers for me too.

[Jewess]

As an Orthodox Jew, I know this to be true and find it to be highly disturbing. Much as they may think so, theyre not following god's laws. No extreme religious orthodox jewish rabbis who are community leaders -aka gadol hador- leaders of the generation- support their antics.

[Beeks]

The ultra orthodox in Israel get completely nuts. My husband and I once took a shuttle from Jerusalem to the airport and we ended up being the only secular people on board. We couldn't sit next to each other and I felt completely harassed and uncomfortable the entire ride (husband faired a little better, but still. Ugh). And it wasn't even an orthodox shuttle service or anything - but sadly when these types are in a big group they are very intimidating.

[Jewess]

even among israeli ultra orthodox, some are more extreme than others. bet shemsh, where this story is, happens to be a hotbed of extremism.

[Deleted03]

Nothing can ever be worse than the Saudi "Morality Police" pushing girls back into a burning school because they weren't covered.

uh - sorry what?

Ok they are not forcing them to die but they are bullying minors, for not dressing modest enough when they should not be concerned by that. I don't care other religions stone women, their behavior is horrible - free speech or not, schools are not a place to do any sort of protest while children are in school.

[Letgo]

In what part of the Talmud is this type of behavior encouraged? If these men feel penned in by the school, go to the appropriate government department and work on a change, don't terrorize children.

[Jewess]

In what part of the Talmud is this type of behavior encouraged? If these men feel penned in by the school, go to the appropriate government department and work on a change, don't terrorize children.

It isn't. And I'm saying, even the strictest orthodox Jewish leaders don't support what is going on one iota. Unfortunately, in every group there are some trouble makers. This is the Bet Shemesh trouble makers. (And if you want to know more about the Bet Shemesh extremism, how about the Jewish Burka ladies... http://www.amotherinisrael.com/burka-la ... dox-women/ )

It gives me comfort at least to know that even among these extremists, their own religious leaders don't condone what they;re doing, which seems to be at least slightly different than other religious fundamentalist extremist harassment or abuse.

[Letgo]

It isn't.

Exactly. Has anyone every studied those who voluntarily become involved with extremist groups? Is there a chemical, hormone, brain structure that makes it happen? Why does this behavior sound inappropriate to us but not to them? I can understand kidnap victims becoming attached to/following the perpetrator, but why do some people take religion or other cause (environment, trees, whales, abortion,etc.) too far?

[treemom]

Exactly. Has anyone every studied those who voluntarily become involved with extremist groups? Is there a chemical, hormone, brain structure that makes it happen? Why does this behavior sound inappropriate to us but not to them? I can understand kidnap victims becoming attached to/following the perpetrator, but why do some people take religion or other cause (environment, trees, whales, abortion,etc.) too far?

It is my opinion (which is not professional or otherwise, just my own thoughts) that it is attractive because you are super speshul when you are in these groups. Other people are the have nots (of the truth) and you are the haves. It is like materialism, only a effed up spiritualism.

[Jewess]

I think religion on the whole is a healthy, good thing. But some people have mental illnesses or some abusive part of their personality, and they use religion as a trapping for them. And thats how you get guys attracted to patriarchal christianity- because it gives them permission to be abusive. And thats how you get people who are religious extremists such as this- they are looking for an outlet, and here they become "zealots" in the name of religion, while at the same time corrupting the very tenets of the religion they're trying to represent.

You also get people with OCD who become OCD in terms of religion, and take religiosity to the extreme...

[GeoBQn]

I have family friends who live in Bet Shemesh. They are modern orthodox--the wife covers her head but leaves some hair exposed, the husband listens to Led Zeppelin while working out, their daughters took gymnastics, etc. Even a couple years ago, they were considering moving somewhere else because of how polarizing the area was becoming. Once, the wife was driving her eldest daughter back from a Shabbat sleepover on a Saturday night. Suddenly, the tires on her car blew out. They had been slashed by broken bottles left out in the street by ultra-orthodox Jews to punish anybody who drove on Shabbat.

[treemom]

I think religion on the whole is a healthy, good thing. But some people have mental illnesses or some abusive part of their personality, and they use religion as a trapping for them. And thats how you get guys attracted to patriarchal christianity- because it gives them permission to be abusive. And thats how you get people who are religious extremists such as this- they are looking for an outlet, and here they become "zealots" in the name of religion, while at the same time corrupting the very tenets of the religion they're trying to represent.

You also get people with OCD who become OCD in terms of religion, and take religiosity to the extreme...

People don't become OCD, OCD is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, not a personality trait. One does not become their disease.

Also, I don't think it is fair to blame mental illness for the failures of religion. Religion itself tends to set up the situations where extremism can exist.

[Jewess]

People don't become OCD, OCD is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, not a personality trait. One does not become their disease.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I know OCD is a diagnosed mental illness, I wasn't using it as a catch phrase. Some people diagnosed with OCD, their OCD comes out in terms of religiosity. If they're Orthodox Jews, for example, they may wash their hands ritually repeatedly, afraid that they made their hands ritually impure. Or such a woman may take 2 hours to get ready for the mikva- ritual bath when you only need half an hour. And sometimes it comes out in general obsessiveness with religious laws and going to the extreme in everything religiously.

Also, I don't think it is fair to blame mental illness for the failures of religion. Religion itself tends to set up the situations where extremism can exist.

I don't blame mental illness for the failures of religion. I think that people with personality problems use religion to excuse their wrongdoings...

[treemom]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I know OCD is a diagnosed mental illness, I wasn't using it as a catch phrase. Some people diagnosed with OCD, their OCD comes out in terms of religiosity. If they're Orthodox Jews, for example, they may wash their hands ritually repeatedly, afraid that they made their hands ritually impure. Or such a woman may take 2 hours to get ready for the mikva- ritual bath when you only need half an hour. And sometimes it comes out in general obsessiveness with religious laws and going to the extreme in everything religiously.

I don't blame mental illness for the failures of religion. I think that people with personality problems use religion to excuse their wrongdoings...

I know, I have OCD so I get the idea behind it. But the phrase become OCD isn't correct. They develop obsessions or compulsions, or both but they don't be come 'Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder'

Your earlier post implied that the extremism seems to be a result of mental illness, not of the religion. That implication is what I disagree with.

[Jewess]

I think it can go either way. Some schitzophrenics hear God telling them to do things. Some people with OCD have religious obsessions. I think mental illnesses combined with religion can cause extremism in some cases.

Additionally, I think there are people with personality problems, people that are abusive, etc, and they use religion as an excuse to be abusive "with justification".

The two are very different from each other, but both can be a cause of religious extremism turned bad.

[Terrie]

OCD doesn't work that way. A defining feature of OCD is that you are aware that it is not logical. Scrupulosity (religiously-themed obsessions and compulsions) certainly implies a religious background, but has nothing to do with extremism or imposing your views on others.

[Jewess]

OCD doesn't work that way. A defining feature of OCD is that you are aware that it is not logical. Scrupulosity (religiously-themed obsessions and compulsions) certainly implies a religious background, but has nothing to do with extremism or imposing your views on others.

I bow to your knowledge of mental illness. Fortunately its not something I have had too much contact with, other than women who claim their husbands are super controlling and borderline abusive to them because of their husband's religious obsessions, and then they later find out that he has been diagnosed with OCD. So I assumed similar things could happen in situations like what was described in the OP.

[Hane]

These "protests" are revolting enough, but their core reason (in the news footage) is even worse: The ultra-orthodox claim that the school was purposely built in "their" neighborhood, in an attempt to "fence them in"--so apparently they consider any behavior, no matter how objectionable, justifiable in pushing their political agenda.