Joy and Austin (and Gideon) 22: When Nothing Much Happens

[Denim Jumper]

1 hour ago, Taylurker said:

The thing is that a woman without a prior cesarean section can have a rupture, too.

Statistically, VBACs are safer than repeat cesareans. For a woman who wants a VBAC, it's important to have a VBAC-friendly doctor rather than a VBAC-tolerant one. There is no reason to handle VBACs with extreme conditions or limitations. There is also no reason to be scared or forced into a RCS.

That said, a qualified and professional CNM with OB back-up or an OB should, in my opinion, attend a VBAC, and no less than that. And it should preferably be in a birth center or in the hospital. If that's what you mean by "kid gloves", then I agree.

Joy said she wanted to try a homebirth. Great, she tried. Please, Joy, don't be like Jill and attempt a VBAC at home with a lay midwife. You have a lot of doctors at your fingertips who would probably support you. You can make any birth plan you want and decline whatever you want at the hospital.

I hope Jill and Joy make use of their local ICAN chapter for their next births if they want a VBAC.

Sure, rupture can happen without a uterine scar, but the risk is about 0.006%. Versus about 1.03% in women with a uterine scar. 

To argue whether a VBAC is safer than a repeat c-section, first we need to define the parameters of what “safer” means. Personally, I’ve had 2 VBACs; after the first one I was a huge advocate because everything went smoothly. My second by contrast... virtually every complication for myself and my baby would have been prevented by a planned repeat c-section. Unfortunately, nothing could have predicted that, in spite of a textbook low risk pregnancy, excellent prenatal care, and giving birth in a top hospital with a CNM and OB for backup. 

Listen, VBAC can be a great option, but I will not present it as an inherently better choice than a c-section, because we only know in hindsight what the best choice is. It can be a wonderful, healing experience, but it can also be a shitstorm of unpredictable complications. 

Its been 7 years, but I still feel a bit angry and betrayed at how the risks were downplayed. It’s dishonest to minimize the small but real risks of VBAC, when a planned repeat c-section is also a safe relatively low risk option.

[singsingsing]

20 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

The way people have been trying to make it sound like Joy and Jill are likely to pop and die has been bothering me.

But I don't think anyone is saying anything remotely like that. The criticism/concern I'm seeing is entirely based on the Duggars' history of inadequate prenatal care, use of unqualified midwives during labour, and willingness to take seemingly stupid and pointless risks. I haven't seen a single person imply that Joy or Jill are 'likely to pop and die' if they dare attempt a VBAC. It's their history of difficult births + reckless decision making that has people worried. 

[Denim Jumper]

Double post

[VBOY9977]

The talk about Gideon’s look towards Austin a few posts back reminded me of the pic of him and Joy they also released recently   he knows exactly which family he was born into... that side eye though lol

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, VBOY9977 said:

The talk about Gideon’s look towards Austin a few posts back reminded me of the pic of him and Joy they also released recently  lol he knows exactly which family he was born into 

kid looks pissed. wondering what he did to end up in this family. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

He’s a grumpy old man baby.  I love it.  My money is on him to ditch the fundie life and write a tell all one day.

[Taylurker]

10 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

This article references an interesting study posted in the Human Reproduction Journal: 
"One study, published in the journal Human Reproduction, followed women who were trying to get pregnant by having sex at the time in their monthly cycle when they were believed to be most fertile. Of the 346 women in the study, 310 conceived in the first year. The breakdown was like this:

38 percent were pregnant after 1 month.
68 percent were pregnant after 3 months.
81 percent were pregnant after 6 months.
92 percent were pregnant after 12 months.

In their conclusion, the researchers wrote, “Most couples conceive within six cycles with timed intercourse.” After a year of trying without conceiving, experts say you should see a fertility specialist."

https://www.thebump.com/a/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-pregnant

This is why I don't consider Michelle (or Kelly) to have "super" fertility.  Sure, she may have naturally ovulated sooner after birth (she was often pregnant again within 6-9 months after a baby), but that varies from woman to woman. Breastfeeding clearly did not suppress her body's cycle, and she conceived within a normal timeframe. She also always had her fertility window marked on the calendar and to me, she obviously used NFP to *at least* keep track of things.

That said, my great-grandma had 16 children without using NFP based on temperature, all roughly 18 months apart. I really think women like this just have a case of quick ovulation after a birth and inevitable conception. 20% of women will get pregnant while breastfeeding without birth control in the first year. Not terribly common, not terribly unusual. But those women with such a pattern who opt out of contraceptives in this day and age is unusual. But they can easily end up with 15+ kids.

I can't tag Denim Jumper for some reason, but you mentioned that VBACs have risks that shouldn't be downplayed - I agree, but I also think that the risks of a c-section shouldn't be downplayed, either. Ultimately, though, I think a woman has a right to informed consent for both procedures and should be able to make an unbiased choice as to whether she wants a VBAC or RCS.

[Audrey2]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

kid looks pissed. wondering what he did to end up in this family. 

Just based on facial expressions, Gideon and Davia Waller would be fun together, as they both look totally over their families as fundamentalism. Who am I kidding, with their parents, by the time they're of an age to consider a relationship they will be so full of the kool-ade that it will be freely flowing from every pore!

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

He’s a grumpy old man baby.  I love it.  My money is on him to ditch the fundie life and write a tell all one day.

Nah, he's a boy and both of his parents have completely bought into the ideology. He can do whatever the hell he wants and never suffer real consequences for any of it. Actually, I stand corrected. He can't bite down too hard on his mom while breastfeeding, wander off of a blanket, or express normal toddler emotions, but sexual assault, infidelity, spousal abuse, child abuse, scamming parishioners/followers out of their money, bullying preteens on Twitter, and not getting a real job will all be A-OK. 

[Gobsmacked]

1 hour ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

He’s a grumpy old man baby.  I love it.  My money is on him to ditch the fundie life and write a tell all one day.

Wee Gideon has passed through life at least once already. That look says "oh shit, here we go again".

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

I'm imagining baby Gideon being a genius and speaking with a voice reminiscent of Stewie from the Family Guy.

[Gobsmacked]

1 hour ago, Audrey2 said:

Just based on facial expressions, Gideon and Davia Waller would be fun together, as they both look totally over their families as fundamentalism. Who am I kidding, with their parents, by the time they're of an age to consider a relationship they will be so full of the kool-ade that it will be freely flowing from every pore!

I'm so hoping that they are both totally immune to kool-ade. They gain an education ( somehow), have 2.5 kids and travel the world writing books about their experiences. 

[ophelia]

5 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

kid looks pissed. wondering what he did to end up in this family. 

I can't blame him. That poor little fella. He'll be a big brother no later than September 2019. His parents are drenched in the koolaid and won't give her body a break no matter what any heathen doctor tells them.

[SorenaJ]

Gideon looks completely over it. Fair enough. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I thought of Davia Waller after seeing that photo too. Poor kids. 

[L1o2u3]

Talking about VBAC... Cheryl Long (Treasures from a Shoebox, The Long Way to Go) had 4 cesareans, I think, and then 6 VBACs, two of them at home  One baby was a very big baby too. Apparently Above Rubies also has lots of articles on VBAC. 

In case you haven't read these articles yet or were wondering how many c-sections one woman can have... 

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/c-sections/1032-c-sections-ten-children-nine-c-sections ten children, nine c-sections

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/c-sections/1031-c-sections-how-many-is-too-many another lady with nine c-sections 

a quote from the second article 

Quote

Our sixth baby was also born by c-section. He was a big baby too. My doctor again suggested we quit, but my heart kept saying, "Trust the Lord" and we did. We went to an Above Rubies Family Camp and I asked Nancy to pray over my uterus and ask the Lord to bless and strengthen it. Our faith never wavered, even though most people thought we were crazy and that we were not considering the children I already had at home by putting my health at risk again.

I went on to have three more children by c-section and I am still hoping for more children.

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/vaginal-birth-after-cesarean/999-vbac-stories-five-vbacs-without-complications 5 VBACs 

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/pregnancy/13-pregnancy-persevering-faith 3 c-sections, then VBAC at the hospital, then at home, then an emergency c-section, two more c-sections and then another VBAC in the hospital. She also had a rupture somewhere along the way.

So this could very well be the road a Duggar daughter is going down... Let's hope they won't though. 

 

 

 

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

These women have been brain washed to think that "as many as the lord gives" means getting pregnant until you physically can't anymore, because either you are dead, your uterus has been removed or you go into menopause and move on to a "new season of life". I really hope Austin will put his foot down after 5 or 6 kids and say ENOUGH because he is overwhelmed, because we all know they won't stop when Joy is.  

[libgirl2]

12 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

kid looks pissed. wondering what he did to end up in this family. 

He is how many weeks old and already he has the side eye down. He actually made me LOL --- twice. 

[BadMurphy]

Sorry if this was already discussed but after I watched Monday's primary episode I couldn't help but think about how Jill couldn't be involved in her buddy-daughter's big reveal day. Jessa took her place as the experienced older sister, Jill got a quick text message (and no talking head) on the way to the big house. Way to go Derrick. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, BadMurphy said:

Sorry if this was already discussed but after I watched Monday's primary episode I couldn't help but think about how Jill couldn't be involved in her buddy-daughter's big reveal day. Jessa took her place as the experienced older sister, Jill got a quick text message (and no talking head) on the way to the big house. Way to go Derrick. 

you know I never thought of it that. you bring up a good point also don't you love how when Jim Bob and Michelle are naming grandkids Samuel is just slipped in there. (We already discussed how Mason was.) if people just watch the show without following the news they would have no clue who Sam or Mason were. TLC is really shooting themselves in the foot buy keeping the show on but pulling siblings off. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Yeah, the pulling off of the asshole siblings (Or their spouses) they aren't solving the problem, they all have the same beliefs, some are just better at sugar coating that pile of shit than others. J&B, J&j, JA&A, J&K and soon J&L all think the same way as Derelict and they all "forgave" Joshly of his "transgressions" and properly chastised, Anna and the sisters for making Joshy be all pervy.  They just keep the assy hate to like minded folks and are smart enough not to put it on Twitter, Unlike Derelict & Joshly.

[Ivycoveredtower]

the Duggar's are over on their FB talking about how this time last year Joy and Austin got engaged and they started to wedding plan and now they have a baby. 

 

that's just crazy nuts. of course we all know that but to see it put down it's just shocking all over again. 

[Alice in Fundieland]

I’m not sure if this belongs here or on the Dillard thread, but since it deals with Joy’s birth, I’m sharing it here: http://people.com/tv/jill-duggar-midwife-training/

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

8 hours ago, L1o2u3 said:

Talking about VBAC... Cheryl Long (Treasures from a Shoebox, The Long Way to Go) had 4 cesareans, I think, and then 6 VBACs, two of them at home  One baby was a very big baby too. Apparently Above Rubies also has lots of articles on VBAC. 

In case you haven't read these articles yet or were wondering how many c-sections one woman can have... 

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/c-sections/1032-c-sections-ten-children-nine-c-sections ten children, nine c-sections

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/c-sections/1031-c-sections-how-many-is-too-many another lady with nine c-sections 

a quote from the second article 

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/vaginal-birth-after-cesarean/999-vbac-stories-five-vbacs-without-complications 5 VBACs 

http://www.aboverubies.org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/pregnancy/13-pregnancy-persevering-faith 3 c-sections, then VBAC at the hospital, then at home, then an emergency c-section, two more c-sections and then another VBAC in the hospital. She also had a rupture somewhere along the way.

So this could very well be the road a Duggar daughter is going down... Let's hope they won't though. 

 

 

 

 

I’m not gonna read the articles, I’ve read them before; I somehow got on their mailing list years ago. But I will say that as a c-sections only fundie/fundie-lite,  those articles make me so upset. I actively speak against them. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, Alice in Fundieland said:

I’m not sure if this belongs here or on the Dillard thread, but since it deals with Joy’s birth, I’m sharing it here: http://people.com/tv/jill-duggar-midwife-training/

notice they don't mention the fact that the midwife she learned under had her license stripped and it was stripped before Jill took her test so I don't see how even that test could be legit. since Jill's hours would be wiped out.