180: If you support abortion access, you're like Hitler

[Burris]

Being familiar with some of Ray Comfort's other fuckery, I had the strong sense his new “documentary,' 180, was going to be an illogical and offensive ball of bad arguments.

Turns out I was right.

Here's the question that caught the unwary by surprise and supposedly turned people from being pro-choice to anti-choice in the space of a few seconds: “Isn't that like saying 'I think what Hitler did was wrong. I think it's his choice. I don't think it's okay, but he did it and it was his choice to do so and he had that sanction of the German people...but it's okay even though I don't agree with it'?â€

It was when I heard this loaded and nonsensical question that I stopped watching the movie. I was already offended, but that pushed things over the egde.

The theologians who endorsed this movie, calling the central question brilliant and powerful, should be stripped of their degrees by the embarrassed universities that granted them.

No it wasn't Hitler's “choice†to kill random people who had absolutely no tie to him. Those people weren't infringing on any of Hitler's rights. They weren't using his body for life support, or treating him like a container for their DNA. They were separate, sentient individuals.

Fetuses - particularly the youngest - are neither independent nor sentient.

Fetal brain development begins around [EDIT] 5 weeks...Until then, a fetus simply feeds and grows within, incapable of thought or feeling, not giving anything back – a potential person that could grow into a baby or into a tumor (e.g., with a molar pregnancy). If a brainless fetus has any rights at all, those rights must necessarily compete with (and lose to) the rights of the woman providing all that life support.

It would be funny to poll Comfort's supporters to ask how many of them think it's okay to shoot home-invaders for trespassing while at the same time arguing that women who evict unwanted fetuses are worse than Hitler.

Comfort tries to weasel his way around such counter-arguments by erasing the woman and referring almost exclusively to “the womb.†He does this while barely acknowledging the fact a woman's womb exists within a fully-formed, sentient person.

In short, his question is a nasty joke. His movie is offensive bullshit. And I can't imagine anyone expected anything more from the man.

Click here to watch Ray make a complete ass of himself.

[takers401]

It really annoys me when people bring Hitler into an arguement. If that's all you (general) have, then you're not very good at making your point.

[Burris]

It really annoys me when people bring Hitler into an arguement. If that's all you (general) have, then you're not very good at making your point.

Yeah, it's weak and easy to defeat: "Were any of those people living inside Hitler's body when he ordered their deaths? NO? Well then shut the fuck up!"

[mirele]

Comfort tries to weasel his way around such counter-arguments by erasing the woman and referring almost exclusively to “the womb.†He does this while barely acknowledging the fact a woman's womb exists within a fully-formed, sentient person.

That's been part of pro-life rhetoric for as long as I can remember. Women are not described as women, but as containers for "the life growing within" and totally subservient to that life.

Ray is also comparing governmental action (i.e., the action of the German state in hunting down all Jews for extermination) to that of an individual woman deciding on an abortion (and not every woman is getting an abortion). But, interestingly enough, Ray wants governmental action to control every woman's body, rather than leaving it up to personal decision.

I'm waiting for the appropriate moment to post something about how Ray would have the government up in my ladybits on his blog if he had his way (and also trying to figure out a way to post it where it won't get deleted), and no man would stand for that kind of interference in their reproductive lives.

I'd also note that Jesus didn't say a thing about abortion, and methods of abortion were known during his time. Kind of like how Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality either.

[notmystyle]

Hi everybody! Long-time lurker, first-time poster! I had to finally register so I could release some of the steam that's coming out of my ears.

One of my relatives has been WAY into the Jesus stuff on Facebook lately. (Like, she recently watched Fireproof and now she's doing the Love Dare, ugh.) She posted a link to "180" this morning. My reaction, of course, was to roll my eyes so hard they almost came out of my head.

Then I made the mistake of attempting to watch it.

The VERY FIRST STATEMENT in the video is this:

"I'm Ray Comfort, and I'm Jewish."

You're Ray Comfort, and you're JEWISH? You mean you're NOT Evangelical Christian Minister Ray "Bananas Prove That God Loves Us" Comfort?

Now, I realize that the average person is not as familiar with Ray Comfort (or as impervious to religious propaganda) as the folks around here are, so would it be inappropriate for me to just gently mention that one probably shouldn't put much stock in a video in which the VERY. FIRST. STATEMENT. is essentially a bald-faced lie?

Or should I just respond to her post with a link to the Wikipedia page about Godwin's Law? ;)

I'm less than one minute into this video. My brain is on fire.

[Witsec1]

Natalie Klejwa of Visionary Womanhood posted this yesterday, then removed it w/o explanation. Apparently all her kids watched it, including the 3 and 6 year old. She is very fond of the argumentum ad hitlerem.

takers401 wrote:

It really annoys me when people bring Hitler into an arguement. If that's all you (general) have, then you're not very good at making your point.

It shuts down conversation but what is most annoying is that they are usually distorting the history. Most christians really did not oppose Hitler until much, much too late. They were OK with Hitler cracking down on gays, commies, loose women, and immigrants. Did evangelical Christians in the US support raising restrictive immigration policies that would have saved thousands of European Jews? No, they did not.

[Witsec1]

Hi everybody! Long-time lurker, first-time poster! I had to finally register so I could release some of the steam that's coming out of my ears.

One of my relatives has been WAY into the Jesus stuff on Facebook lately. (Like, she recently watched Fireproof and now she's doing the Love Dare, ugh.) She posted a link to "180" this morning. My reaction, of course, was to roll my eyes so hard they almost came out of my head.

Then I made the mistake of attempting to watch it.

The VERY FIRST STATEMENT in the video is this:

"I'm Ray Comfort, and I'm Jewish."

You're Ray Comfort, and you're JEWISH? You mean you're NOT Evangelical Christian Minister Ray "Bananas Prove That God Loves Us" Comfort?

Now, I realize that the average person is not as familiar with Ray Comfort (or as impervious to religious propaganda) as the folks around here are, so would it be inappropriate for me to just gently mention that one probably shouldn't put much stock in a video in which the VERY. FIRST. STATEMENT. is essentially a bald-faced lie?

Or should I just respond to her post with a link to the Wikipedia page about Godwin's Law? ;)

I'm less than one minute into this video. My brain is on fire.

Welcome, notmystyle! I haven't been able to watch it yet. About the Jewish thing, to be fair, he would have been considered Jewish under Hitler. The humane Christian anti-semitic rulers gave Jews a chance to convert before they roasted them.

[notmystyle]

Welcome, notmystyle! I haven't been able to watch it yet. About the Jewish thing, to be fair, he would have been considered Jewish under Hitler. The humane Christian anti-semitic rulers gave Jews a chance to convert before they roasted them.

I figured that that was the case, but it still seems weirdly manipulative, and, I don't know... appropriative? I haven't really gotten any further in the video, so I don't KNOW if he ever goes on to admit that he is currently a super-duper-hardcore Evangelical Christian - but from that intro, I'm assuming he doesn't. Would he ever call himself "Jewish" outside of a situation where he's using Hitler to prove his point? It feels like he's saying one thing as an appeal to emotion, when he really means another... Which, I suppose, is how you know you've got some high-quality propaganda. :)

[Joykins]

So this ENTIRE MOVIE is just Godwin's Law in action? Oh lordy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Maggie Mae]

Is this the film that was "advertised" a while back and was "guaranteed to change our minds?"

[mirele]

Is this the film that was "advertised" a while back and was "guaranteed to change our minds?"

Yes. Interestingly enough, it doesn't guarantee that pro-lifers will become pro-choice as a result of seeing this film.

Ray and Co. are hoping for it to go viral. I have to rent them a clue: it's too ponderous, clunky and LONG to be a viral video. It's a freaking TRACT. And we know what happens to tracts. As our English FJites would say, they get binned without being read. The same will happen to this piece of obnoxious dreck.

[Soulhuntress]

So this ENTIRE MOVIE is just Godwin's Law in action? Oh lordy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes it is. I watched a little bit and did not get to his main point before I decided to play sims. Much more fun.

[Bookworm]

Fetal brain development begins around 25 weeks – well past the cut-off point for 'elective abortion' pretty much anywhere. Until then, a fetus simply feeds and grows within, incapable of thought or feeling, not giving anything back – a potential person that could grow into a baby or into a tumor (e.g., with a molar pregnancy). If a brainless fetus has any rights at all, those rights must necessarily compete with (and lose to) the rights of the woman providing all that life support.

I agree that Comfort's latest project is ridiculous and from the sounds of it chock full of lies, but I must STRONGLY question the statement that fetal brain development BEGINS at 25 weeks - that just can't be true. I have been around preemies younger than that, particularly one who I believe was born at 22 weeks and lived for several days, who had suckle reflexes, who cried, who moved in response to other perople's movement, who seemed to know when their mother walked in the room just as full term babies do. Admittedly, my experience is mostly back when my youngest sibling was born and stayed in an NICU for weeks, so I was still a young teen, but I have talked to nurses since then as well.

I just wanted to register my disagreement with that point.

[Angri-la]

Thank you for reviewing this shite, as I don't want to watch it, but I am agog at the "arguments".

I value life more than those who want to legislate my womb. I give a shit about the kids when they are born, not just until--don't worry, nothing will ever grow up there, so, though I desperately wish I could get pregnant JUST to have an abortion, I cannot-- that's how we feminists are, right?

"I'm having an abortion and I can't wait!!!!"---Lulu from John Waters's Polyester.

Seriously, they really think we are all just a achin' to abort? Does any woman thrill to it? Even being Pro-Choice, I would say only a few sick individuals might, but for most, it is not a fun time. I do get that the fundies do not understand irony, sarcasm or hyperbole, so I am sure this post will end up on a lurkers blog as a "See...they eat babies and want abortions!"

[emmiedahl]

I think that was a typo. The brain does most of its developing before 20 weeks. Important stuff happens beyond that point, but at 20 weeks the fetus has a for-the-most-part functioning brain.

eta: reflexes are a product of your parasympathetic nervous system which, if I recall correctly, is not directly controlled by your brain. Or am I remembering that wrong?

[Trynn]

While I'm not a huge fan of abortion myself (though I support the right of a woman to choose) I think this argument is incredibly stupid. I've studied the Holocaust a lot, and my first thought was DON'T YOU *DARE* compare the horrors of what Hitler did to abortions. They are not even in the same ballpark.

Aside from all the other valid arguments mentioned so far, Hitler didn't just kill Jews, he TORTURED them in science experiments, starved them and overworked them to the point where they were literally skin and bones. He took away their homes, their families, their possessions, and made them live in concentration camps with lice and disease and God knows what else.

Aborted fetuses are just killed instantly.* Well, ok, even if it's not INSTANT instantly, it's not this year long drawn out process it was with a lot of the Jews. And no one in their right mind would take some kind of instrument and insert it into the womb and just torture the fetus to death. Maybe there are some sickos out there who'd do that but it is certainly NOT the norm.

*I understand some might not believe life can begin that early. That's fine, this is just how it is from my perspective, and even coming from fundy's perspective too, because they believe life starts at conception, so either way you could still explain it like this.

[Burris]

I agree that Comfort's latest project is ridiculous and from the sounds of it chock full of lies, but I must STRONGLY question the statement that fetal brain development BEGINS at 25 weeks - that just can't be true. I have been around preemies younger than that, particularly one who I believe was born at 22 weeks and lived for several days, who had suckle reflexes, who cried, who moved in response to other perople's movement, who seemed to know when their mother walked in the room just as full term babies do. Admittedly, my experience is mostly back when my youngest sibling was born and stayed in an NICU for weeks, so I was still a young teen, but I have talked to nurses since then as well.

I just wanted to register my disagreement with that point.

You are correct. Hmmm... that's what I get for being sloppy and looking at only one source - a source that said 25 weeks instead of five weeks, when brain development actually begins. (I looked at it and thought, 'That can't be right,' but I was too busy being disgusted to look any deeper. I think I aped someone else's typo.)

My original point still stands: Not sentient? No competing rights.

[Burris]

I think that was a typo.

No - I'm just an idiot. :oops:

Comfort is such an intellectually lazy asshole. Instead of asking a series of questions designed to help people probe their own views on abortion, he simply comes up with a gimmick designed to capitalize on ambivalence.

He could have asked what differentiates the life of a fetus from that of a baby, and whether that difference is sufficient to grant the latter basic rights while withholding those rights from the former.

He could have pointed out that birth is a fairly arbitrary line between nonpersonhood and personhood, asking whether and where the line should be moved.

Hell, he could have simply stated, "A person is a person, no matter how small," and got traction.

But no! Instead he goes with a Godwin and spins a weak argument out of it - an argument that, despite its total lack of merit, somehow hoodwinked "intelligent" theologians. (I can scarcely believe how many educated people fell for that crap and endorsed it. I lost most of my respect for John Piper when I came across his views on spousal abuse. His endorsement of this schlock has killed whatever residue remained.)

[koolmom]

Oh, and didn't Hitler outlaw abortion in Germany, anyway?

[Confused_by_religion]

This "You are like Hitler if..." is an extremely annoying tactic in a discussion that doesn't work at all.

Because you are like Hitler if ...

...you like sheepdogs

...dislike lipstick

....are a vegetarian

....have a live-in girlfriend that you hide from the public eye

:doh:

Starting a war, killing whole populations, installing dictatorships...I hope these things are considered evils in themselves, not "because Hitler did it". *argh

[Joykins]

Oh, and didn't Hitler outlaw abortion in Germany, anyway?

For "Aryan" women only.

Google "Lebensborn homes" sometimes if you want to get an idea of what they were trying to do.

[pomology]

For "Aryan" women only.

Google "Lebensborn homes" sometimes if you want to get an idea of what they were trying to do.

Well, that makes sense, considering that Nazis threw newborn Jewish babies out of the windows of ghetto hospitals. I mean, why would he care about outlawing abortion of various groups that he murdering living, sentient members of, anyway?

[longskirtlotsakids]

I noted that Ray used intrusive background noise, annoying as fuck horror movie music, and rapid speech in the beginning of the movie. He also used disturbing visuals and personalization- YOU have to bury the Jews. YOU have a machine gun in your hands.. and you have to shoot the Jews.

All a tactic used to get the adrenalin up and cause a visceral reaction. THen note when people make the "discovery" that fetuses are people. THe music stops. Words like people and love pop up. ALl to have you associate being pro-life with peace and pleasant imagery. The camera angles are also annoying... can't they afford a cameraman less than three feet tall?

It's obvious how hard he has to reach, and it falls short.

[mirele]

The question I have is, how does this movie have fuckall to do with Living Waters' generally stated purpose, which is to save people for Jeebus (not to be confused with Jesus, the guy who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago)? I know that these evangelicals are really political these days, but it looks like to me that Ray's gone over a line now.

And again, let me state that Ray's confusing a governmental action (the genocide of the Jews) with a personal action (deciding whether or not to get an abortion). But he'd sure like some governmental action so he can have the government all up in my ladybits.

[Joykins]

And again, let me state that Ray's confusing a governmental action (the genocide of the Jews) with a personal action (deciding whether or not to get an abortion). But he'd sure like some governmental action so he can have the government all up in my ladybits.

He'd probably have a better position if he was talking about forced abortions in China.