Franklin Graham makes ass of himself about Carrie Fisher and George Michael

[Kimichaels147]

21 hours ago, Percy said:

Billie Lourd has lost a mother and a grandmother in the space of a day.  I don't know if her father is still alive.  I would think a true Christian would be offering support and prayers right now.

Billie's father hasn't spoken out that I've seen but his husband, Bruce Bozzi, has. He spoke very highly about Carrie multiple times and posted a very sweet Instagram post after she and her mother passed. 

[Percy]

4 minutes ago, Kimichaels147 said:

Billie's father hasn't spoken out that I've seen but his husband, Bruce Bozzi, has. He spoke very highly about Carrie multiple times and posted a very sweet Instagram post after she and her mother passed. 

Thanks for that, it is nice to know she has her father still around.

[PennySycamore]

@mirele, I am so sorry some asshole, idiot "christian" subjected you to that.

Fuck those stupid "Four Spiritual Laws"!  I got ambushed by a Campus Crusader from my Russian class. I had considered this girl my friend before the ambush.  (She'd seen my Star of David necklace.   No, I'm not Jewish, but had considered converting.)  That was the end of that friendship. 

[Black Aliss]

On 12/31/2016 at 6:24 PM, FloraKitty35 said:

Franklin Graham is an ass, he doesn't have to make one of himself, he was born that way.

I disagree. Being an ass is a lifestyle choice.

3 hours ago, Howl said:

When my mom was dying we were doing home hospice.  A neighbor was only too happy to provide an hour or two of respite care so I could go for a walk or run errands.  Turns out she was attempting to do a death-bed conversion on my mom, who asked that the woman never come over again. 

I am so sorry you and your mother had to go through that.

[JMarie]

So Debbie Reynolds is okay, according to Graham?  'Cause she's okay in my book.

[Lurky]

11 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Unless I'm missing something, he doesn't actually say they're definitely in Hell, just that everyone who dies will face God's judgement.

It's true though that this isn't anything extreme. It's a very mainstream Christian belief that all non-Christians go to Hell no matter what kind of lives they led.

Then why make a special deal out of George Michael, Richard Adams and Carrie Fisher?  I'd kind of agree with you that it was no big deal, if the likes of Graham and the PP and this one weren't falling all over themselves to bang on about it last week.  It's not like 2016 wasn't full of celebrity deaths to choose from.  Of course, the fact George Michael was openly gay makes him even more of a sinner, but I don't believe that it's a tenet of mainstream Christianity to, when people are sad about the death of someone they admired, react by going on about how they're going to be in hell, burning in eternal torture blah blah if they didn't believe.

[Rachel333]

18 minutes ago, Lurky said:

Then why make a special deal out of George Michael, Richard Adams and Carrie Fisher?  I'd kind of agree with you that it was no big deal, if the likes of Graham and the PP and this one weren't falling all over themselves to bang on about it last week.  It's not like 2016 wasn't full of celebrity deaths to choose from.  Of course, the fact George Michael was openly gay makes him even more of a sinner, but I don't believe that it's a tenet of mainstream Christianity to, when people are sad about the death of someone they admired, react by going on about how they're going to be in hell, burning in eternal torture blah blah if they didn't believe.

I don't think it's no big deal. I find it pretty horrifying that so many people just accept that non-Christians deserve to be tortured for eternity.

[nastyhobbitses]

10 hours ago, Howl said:

When my mom was dying we were doing home hospice.  A neighbor was only too happy to provide an hour or two of respite care so I could go for a walk or run errands.  Turns out she was attempting to do a death-bed conversion on my mom, who asked that the woman never come over again. 

I try to be empathetic sometimes with those sorts of people since for many, according to their beliefs they genuinely think that they're doing a good thing and making sure a person they care about will go to Heaven and not Hell, but it's just such an asshole thing to do. It's just incredibly shitty to go to someone when they're extremely vulnerable, tired, likely groggy from medicines, scared, and isolated, and then tell them that they'll be burned and tortured forever unless they drastically change their beliefs. It's shitty on two levels: one, mind your own damn business about people's religious beliefs. Two, conversion should be an extremely well-informed decision that a person comes to on their own accord after giving the faith and the decision a lot of thought. A dying person may not be in a mental or cognitive place to make an informed decision. It's predatory.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't think it's no big deal. I find it pretty horrifying that so many people just accept that non-Christians deserve to be tortured for eternity.

I agree. It is my personal belief that we don't know who will go to Heaven or Hell, only God does. The God I worship and pray to isn't a homophobe, a racist, or a misogynist.

[Fascinated]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't think it's no big deal. I find it pretty horrifying that so many people just accept that non-Christians deserve to be tortured for eternity.

It IS horrifying.  But as this is what is taught by their parents, by their clergy and by their bible, I don't completely blame individuals for accepting that I will spend my eternity in hell. I blame religion in general for teaching such horrific concepts.  I understand why, of course.  Without this threat of eternal damnation I assume some, or possibly many, would walk away from their faith.  It has to be a pretty compelling incentive if one actually believes that there is a place called hell.

 

59 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

I agree. It is my personal belief that we don't know who will go to Heaven or Hell, only God does. The God I worship and pray to isn't a homophobe, a racist, or a misogynist.

This is interesting, RosyDaisy, because your sentiment is not that I won't go to hell, but that you don't know if I will. But you do believe that god will make that decision when I die.  As an atheist, I assume he won't need much time to ponder my fate. You don't believe he is a homophobe, a racist or a misogynist, but that he is some kind of entity who will issue a sentence of eternal damnation, if and when he sees fit.  

I swear I am not being snarky or facetious, but I truly would like to understand where believers think heaven and hell, and god himself, are. 

[moodygirl86]

I'm sorry you and your family went through that, @mirele

Mr Graham Jr - how do you know whether any of these people did or did not accept Christ before their deaths, anyway? Were you anywhere near their deathbeds at the time? Nah, didn't think so. There's nothing Christian about tarnishing the memories of people who did nothing wrong to you, so if you have nothing nice to say then kindly shut the feck up!

[Rachel333]

4 hours ago, Fascinated said:

I swear I am not being snarky or facetious, but I truly would like to understand where believers think heaven and hell, and god himself, are. 

Judging by this story, a number of people apparently think Hell is literally deep underground. I remember hearing that story told as if it were true.

Usually though I think people believe that Heaven and Hell are in some spiritual dimension, though eventually there will be (according to Christian teachings) a New Earth that will be in the same physical location as the current earth.

[Tangy Bee]

Pastor Billy Graham was very popular when I was growing up. He was always on talk shows or having yearly crusade specials for the media. I thought of him as a "normal" preacher. We never knew crazies like Gothard, Botkin, and Baucom existed. Never realized generations of young women ditched work or higher education because some religious nut said their place is at home until marriage. Billy Graham should be close to 100 years old. I never thought he was crazy...but his son...now that's a different story.

[47of74]

38 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

Pastor Billy Graham was very popular when I was growing up. He was always on talk shows or having yearly crusade specials for the media. I thought of him as a "normal" preacher. We never knew crazies like Gothard, Botkin, and Baucom existed. Never realized generations of young women ditched work or higher education because some religious nut said their place is at home until marriage. Billy Graham should be close to 100 years old. I never thought he was crazy...but his son...now that's a different story.

Yeah he's still around.  He's 98 years old now.  I think he's just as crazy as Franklin, he just did a better job of hiding it and there wasn't the Internetz around back then to skewer the crazies.

For example Billy wanted Nixon to bomb dikes in Vietnam, estimates were if that had been done it would've killed one million North Vietnamese.

counterpunch.org/2013/11/01/when-billy-graham-urged-nixon-to-kill-a-million-people/

 

[hoipolloi]

Billy and Ruth Graham did indeed appear to be normal but, as I said above, you have to wonder what went on in that home given how their kids have turned out.  

The Wartburg Watch had a good post recently on the abusive treatment Francis Schaeffer inflicted on Edith and the generally dysfunctional home life of the Schaeffers, despite the perfection & warm fuzzies portrayed by Edith. It's not hard to imagine similar stuff going on in the Graham household though none of them ever admitted or revealed anything.

[PennySycamore]

4 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Billy and Ruth Graham did indeed appear to be normal but, as I said above, you have to wonder what went on in that home given how their kids have turned out.  

The Wartburg Watch had a good post recently on the abusive treatment Francis Schaeffer inflicted on Edith and the generally dysfunctional home life of the Schaeffers, despite the perfection & warm fuzzies portrayed by Edith. It's not hard to imagine similar stuff going on in the Graham household though none of them ever admitted or revealed anything.

I remember hearing a story once about what happened when Ruth caught Franklin smoking as a teenager.  I may have some of these details wrong since it's been a few years since I heard this, but she apparently locked Franklin in the car or trunk of the car and made him smoke, IIRC, a carton of cigarettes.  Maybe it was merely a pack, but whatever it was abusive to make her teenage son smoke that much.

[RosyDaisy]

This is interesting, RosyDaisy, because your sentiment is not that I won't go to hell, but that you don't know if I will. But you do believe that god will make that decision when I die.  As an atheist, I assume he won't need much time to ponder my fate. You don't believe he is a homophobe, a racist or a misogynist, but that he is some kind of entity who will issue a sentence of eternal damnation, if and when he sees fit.  
I swear I am not being snarky or facetious, but I truly would like to understand where believers think heaven and hell, and god himself, are. 

Yes, I do believe God will decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. It is not my place to assume who they are and where they will go. Heaven and Hell are spiritual realms, not in the sky or the bottom of the earth. That's the only way I know how to explain it.

[usedtobenice]

22 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

I remember hearing a story once about what happened when Ruth caught Franklin smoking as a teenager.  I may have some of these details wrong since it's been a few years since I heard this, but she apparently locked Franklin in the car or trunk of the car and made him smoke, IIRC, a carton of cigarettes.  Maybe it was merely a pack, but whatever it was abusive to make her teenage son smoke that much.

He wasn't a teenager, I want to say around 8 or 9. Their groundskeeper would smoke half a cigarette and then toss it, lit, on the ground. Franklin would then pick up the lit butt and smoke. 

When Ruth found out, she made the groundskeeper give Franklin a full pack of his Lucky Strikes, and then she made Franklin smoke the whole pack. He did in between puking.

The locked in the trunk incident was when Ruth, Franklin and his sisters were driving to Asheville, NC from their Little Piney Cove home in the mountains. Franklin would not stop annoying his sisters and despite be told to knock it off multiple times and being smacked by a shoehorn, he wouldn't so she put him in the trunk.

Source: his autobiography "Rebel With a Cause." (My Mom used to contribute to Samaritan's Purse and I think she was given the book as a free gift). 

But, yes Franklin has always come across as a sanctimonious prick. He definitely has "first son complex" a la Smuggar.

[PennySycamore]

@usedtobenice, thanks for the clarification!  I'd gotten those two stories conflated.  

[Black Aliss]

On 1/2/2017 at 2:50 AM, Rachel333 said:

I don't think it's no big deal. I find it pretty horrifying that so many people just accept that non-Christians deserve to be tortured for eternity.

There's actually a pretty long history of Christians not being willing to wait for non-Christians to die before starting the torture. (See: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Abu Ghraib, Matthew Shepherd, etc.)

[smittykins]

Hijack:  there's a YouTuber called "DeadCelebritiesNHell" who pontificates on why celebrities are in Hell, or(if still living)are on the way to said place unless they repent.  I was like, I didn't know God made you His judge.

[louisa05]

There was a couple who worked at the Christian school with me who were great saviors of teenagers. Their whole lives were devoted to every way they could possibly spend time "saving" teenagers. They taught, coached, sponsored activities, did youth groups and events at their church, worked on "community outreach" stuff at their church to drag in new teens, and on and on and on. They "mentored" random teens. They each ran a "spiritual accountability" group for teens at their church. 

And they had two teenage children of their own that they barely spent time with. The kids were rebels, got in trouble at school, and often wrote in my English class about how their parents cared more about the rest of the world than them. If you tried to bring this up to their parents, the answer was all about how their kids had good Christian parents and lived in a good Christian home and were taken to a good church and would be just fine and all the kids they were out saving didn't have all that. 

Their son got in legal trouble in college and last I heard (just a couple of years ago) has not spoken to or seen his parents in over a decade. 

Their daughter moved away the moment she had the means to do so and lives in Florida where she competes in bikini competitions and considers herself agnostic. She sees her parents every two or three years for a brief visit. (Nothing wrong with any of that, but it is far from what her parents wanted, expected or thought they were raising her to be). 

I suspect that Billy and Ruth Graham were very similar parents. There was a world to be saved and their Christian kids in their Christian home would be just fine while they were out doing that. 

[RosyDaisy]

There's actually a pretty long history of Christians not being willing to wait for non-Christians to die before starting the torture. (See: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Abu Ghraib, Matthew Shepherd, etc.)

And they were all done against everything Jesus taught. Jesus did not teach hate. He taught peace, love, mercy, and compassion.

[MamaJunebug]

6 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

There's actually a pretty long history of Christians not being willing to wait for non-Christians to die before starting the torture. (See: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Abu Ghraib, Matthew Shepherd, etc.)

Whoa! Abu Ghraib & Matthew Shepherd's death orchestrated by Christians for Christianity?  I don't think either of those are accurate! 

Subject #2--Billy Graham. Wartburg's mentionn of  the Schaeffers reminded me to read "Crazy For God," Frank Jr's [sic] memoirs of growing up Schaefer, being expected to take his father's place, & leaving the system. He says of Mr. Graham that he is a type of whacko (I can't consult the book for the exact word).  He calls Dobson a ruthlessly ambitious man and has choice words about Pat Robertson and J. Falwell, but Graham he just says is nutsy. 

OTOH Frank also accuses Graham of marrying his daughter Gigi off to a "much older" rich man, when In fact, her first husband (the rich man) was only about 7, 8 years older than Gigi. But her education was ceased so she could marry the guy. So, lamentably, there is that. 

[mirele]

On 1/3/2017 at 6:55 PM, MamaJunebug said:

OTOH Frank also accuses Graham of marrying his daughter Gigi off to a "much older" rich man, when In fact, her first husband (the rich man) was only about 7, 8 years older than Gigi. But her education was ceased so she could marry the guy. So, lamentably, there is that. 

Gigi was 17 when she was married off to Stephen Tchividjian, who was 23. This is not an excessive difference; my parents were 19 and 25 when they got married and they were married 54 years until dad died in 2014. That said, my parents came from the same social class and background. And they made the choice themselves--in fact, neither set of parents was invited to the wedding.