Fundies and Death

[liltwinstar]

I've been thinking...back when I was fundie, I didn't really "get" the concept of death. I knew that bodies die, of course, but I didn't understand that when someone dies, he/she is gone forever. You can't talk to them, see them, etc - they're just...gone.

I believed (or wanted to believe) in the Resurrection so much that I just kind of glossed over the death thing - my rationale was that yes, people can die, but it's no big deal because you're be reunited with them in heaven. I viewed death as more like a trip that someone was on. Yes, you miss them, but when you "go home" they'll be there.

I think that the cavalier attitude toward poverty, toward women's health, toward the death of women could be traced to that. If a woman dies in childbirth, she's not really dead - she's just with Jesus and the family will see her again, so it's no big deal. Having miscarriage after miscarriage is just jim-dandy becuase in heaven you'll be reunited with the babies anyway. And on and on.

Seems that when people don't worry too much about the afterlife, they have more energy to spend making life better now - making sure their kids are healthy, managing their own health/pregnancies, being more compassionate toward the less fortunate, etc. If all your hope is in heaven (where you may or may not end up), poverty, illness, death, etc is not a big deal because heaven will make up for it.

I think that's a dangerous and sad way to live...any thoughts?

[emmiedahl]

I believe in an afterlife of some sort, but death scares the hell out of me. Especially the idea of someone else dying, someone I care about. I would like to think that someday I get to meet the fetuses I lost, but I don't really believe that they have souls at 10 weeks gestation.

I think people sometimes believe things to alleviate their fears. That's fine. I wish it worked with me!

[formergothardite]

I kind of agree, but i think it is also that they view women and children as being easily replaced, so if a wife dies attempting a high-risk pregnancy, the husband can just marry someone else. Women and children aren't seen a full people like men are.

[AnnoDomini]

I've been thinking...back when I was fundie, I didn't really "get" the concept of death. I knew that bodies die, of course, but I didn't understand that when someone dies, he/she is gone forever. You can't talk to them, see them, etc - they're just...gone.

I believed (or wanted to believe) in the Resurrection so much that I just kind of glossed over the death thing - my rationale was that yes, people can die, but it's no big deal because you're be reunited with them in heaven. I viewed death as more like a trip that someone was on. Yes, you miss them, but when you "go home" they'll be there.

I think that the cavalier attitude toward poverty, toward women's health, toward the death of women could be traced to that. If a woman dies in childbirth, she's not really dead - she's just with Jesus and the family will see her again, so it's no big deal. Having miscarriage after miscarriage is just jim-dandy becuase in heaven you'll be reunited with the babies anyway. And on and on.

Seems that when people don't worry too much about the afterlife, they have more energy to spend making life better now - making sure their kids are healthy, managing their own health/pregnancies, being more compassionate toward the less fortunate, etc. If all your hope is in heaven (where you may or may not end up), poverty, illness, death, etc is not a big deal because heaven will make up for it.

I think that's a dangerous and sad way to live...any thoughts?

It's got its strengths and weaknesses. I disagree on the miscarriage thing though--my mother mourned each and every miscarriage she had. She views them as lost children, and named them and everything. She developed clinical depression after her last miscarriage and has not been the same since.

[maybeizfundie]

I think it depends on individuals. Are there people so obsessed with "what comes after" that they are completely useless on earth, and waste their lives? I'm sure there are.

But on the other hand, plenty of individuals who believe in the afterlife have given their (temporal) lives to the care of others. Not just conversion efforts, either. But rescuing children, digging wells, providing medical care, combatting slavery and human trafficking. Often *because* of that belief.

And believing that I will see those babies on the other side didn't make the experience of miscarriage jim-dandy by any stretch of the imagination. The hope is in the future. But the now hurts like heck, still.

So, like a lot of things, it may be applicable to some, and not to others, and probably applicable to some people that wouldn't even fit in the fundie category (I'm noticing an awful lot of non-Christian obsessives when it comes to the 2012 thing).

[koolmom]

As a cancer patient, I'm staring death in the face each and every day I wake up. Even before then, all my life, I believed in the afterlife and knew my dearly departeds would be waiting for me and those near and dear when I/they reached heaven. In light of this, I don't feel one iota that God didn't give us humans the brains and intellect to make our lives on earth as well as possible, anything from knowing how to tend children, a garden, to building a skyscraper or a space station and the technology it takes to keep them operating. It's all a gift, even to those who might not believe in the hereafter.

So as far as I'm concerned, these so-called "fundies" who feel they don't have to expend a brain cell to allow them to maintain a quality of life about themselves and their children are literally abusing the privileges and gifts God gave them to maximize their lives on Earth. None of their claptrap means piffle otherwise...

[apple1]

As a cancer patient, I'm staring death in the face each and every day I wake up. Even before then, all my life, I believed in the afterlife and knew my dearly departeds would be waiting for me and those near and dear when I/they reached heaven. In light of this, I don't feel one iota that God didn't give us humans the brains and intellect to make our lives on earth as well as possible, anything from knowing how to tend children, a garden, to building a skyscraper or a space station and the technology it takes to keep them operating. It's all a gift, even to those who might not believe in the hereafter...

Thank you for posting this. I am a cancer survivor, and a believer in the hereafter. I fought incredibly hard to live and to still be here 8+ years later.

I do not believe that here is all there is. That does not make this life any less valuable.

While there may be some who are like those mentioned in the opening post, I do NOT think that is representative of many, or even most, who belief in a hereafter, and to lump all who believe in a hereafter in that generalization is misrepresentative (and disrespectful of those who see it differently).

[FlorenceHamilton]

Going back to the original post, I think that there is some validity to her train of thought. But it seems that there is another piece to the belief system that applies. Many of these sects are quite focused on the fallen nature of man. They see themselves as lowly wretches undeserving of anything pleasurable at all. They easily cherry pick bible quotes ot reach this conclusion. In order to get to heaven, this movement seems to feel obligated to suffer. Only through this suffering, the grace of the suffering of Jesus in heaven will some to them.

As far as the miscarriages, wouldn't that depend on whether or not a Christian is Arminian or Calvinist? In Calvinist thought, a human does not go to heaven unless they are saved. Not only would a fetus not be saved, but neither would a very young child. I have read quite a bit of religious discussion about this and the Calvinists are very clear on this.

[AnnoDomini]

Going back to the original post, I think that there is some validity to her train of thought. But it seems that there is another piece to the belief system that applies. Many of these sects are quite focused on the fallen nature of man. They see themselves as lowly wretches undeserving of anything pleasurable at all. They easily cherry pick bible quotes ot reach this conclusion. In order to get to heaven, this movement seems to feel obligated to suffer. Only through this suffering, the grace of the suffering of Jesus in heaven will some to them.

As far as the miscarriages, wouldn't that depend on whether or not a Christian is Arminian or Calvinist? In Calvinist thought, a human does not go to heaven unless they are saved. Not only would a fetus not be saved, but neither would a very young child. I have read quite a bit of religious discussion about this and the Calvinists are very clear on this.

Excellent point. An unborn or very young child would not, according to Calvinist belief, automatically go to heaven, but neither is it impossible for the child to be saved already--with God, all things are possible.