Me-ternity leave?

[louisa05]

@meda  They refused it on the grounds that he did not have to "care for" dad in that situation and that the hospice center (we were at a dedicated hospice house) is not a hospital or care center by exact definition. They made him fill out paperwork every 90 days and he had to specify exactly how he had to provide care in order to keep getting FMLA leave on an intermittent basis. And this was not a small employer. This is a national railroad. They do everything in their power to intimidate employees and make it difficult to be granted the leave--even though it is unpaid. And his job made it more difficult. If he had gone to work that day, he would have been 8 hours away with no immediate transportation home when our dad died. (They would have been obligated to provide transportation at that point, but it still could have been a day or more). 

I highly doubt they are the only company/corporation that behaves this way. And given the choice, employers will not employ anyone who needs leave to care for a family member. Additionally, being very elderly and requiring care due to limitations/disabilities or frailty does not qualify as a serious illness and no FMLA leave is available for that situation which is a very common issue. 

[Childless]

I've learned to lie.  I give them a reason I know they'll approve without having to excessively plead my case (whenever I need to leave early or come in late).  It's just less of a headache and hassle on my part.

[EyeQueue]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

@meda  They refused it on the grounds that he did not have to "care for" dad in that situation and that the hospice center (we were at a dedicated hospice house) is not a hospital or care center by exact definition. They made him fill out paperwork every 90 days and he had to specify exactly how he had to provide care in order to keep getting FMLA leave on an intermittent basis. And this was not a small employer. This is a national railroad. They do everything in their power to intimidate employees and make it difficult to be granted the leave--even though it is unpaid. And his job made it more difficult. If he had gone to work that day, he would have been 8 hours away with no immediate transportation home when our dad died. (They would have been obligated to provide transportation at that point, but it still could have been a day or more). 

I highly doubt they are the only company/corporation that behaves this way. And given the choice, employers will not employ anyone who needs leave to care for a family member. Additionally, being very elderly and requiring care due to limitations/disabilities or frailty does not qualify as a serious illness and no FMLA leave is available for that situation which is a very common issue. 

This is some cold ass shit. I'm so sorry he had to go through this. Are these people heartless? When it's someone's time to go, you want to be there. My partner's dad just passed away and it meant everything to him that he was able to be there when he spoke his last words and was still lucid.

[Maggie Mae]

On 5/1/2016 at 3:05 PM, SilverBeach said:

That article doesn't hold true for me. I have never given a damn whether someone wants children or not. Why would this matter to me or anybody else? How can I know that? All I know is that they do or don't have children.

I hold to my point that childfree is like saying disease free, and who the hell wants a disease? 

Just because YOU don't care if someone wants kids or not doesn't mean that the assumption that women wants kids holds true to others. 

Childfree means that someone doesn't want children. It is that person's preferred state. Its their preferred term. Please use the preferred term. 

[treehugger]

On 5/1/2016 at 0:06 AM, roddma said:

I think it is fair to talk about the divide between childless and parents. Not many people ever said birthing babies was easy, but like I said you CHOOSE to have kids. I don't think it's so much a disregard for raising kids  or disrespect for family as it is child rearing is no longer seen as the ultimate selfless human sacrifice that everyone must do.

Some of us will marry/and or have kids and others not. Some are single/childless by choice. It takes all kinds to make society work, I see the issue as a lack of respect for the individual in society. It also hurts LGTB.

Child-free people are constantly berated for their choices. In any case childess/ childfree Maternity leave seems outdated as it ASSUMES every woman wants  a child. It should be called something else.

Japan is  afar different society than America. 

Everytime I hear about American maternity leave policies, I am just more and more horrified.  

Here in Canada we get parental leave.  37 weeks- to be divided up among both parents as they deem necessary (although I believe the first 15 weeks, on top of the 37, must go to the mother, as a sort of required sick leave, to recuperate from giving birth, which is no walk in the park).  And, parental leave applies to both biological parents and adoptive parents, which means that the LGTBQ community is not discriminated unfairly against here.  Single parents who adopt are also able to take advantage of this.  This leave is paid, and the company is expected to give the person their job back at the end of it, with the same pay and status as before, if the person wants it.  

It seems that when both men and women are offered and take advantage of parental leave - it has very positive effects on women in the workforce:  http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/07/economist-explains-15

I think is is truly sad that North America is so work-focused.  I absolutely think everyone should get more leave/vacation time.  I thought this was an interesting article.  http://mic.com/articles/91527/the-most-productive-country-in-the-world-isn-t-the-one-you-would-expect#.7xe37mys3

[August]

On 30 April 2016 at 11:08 AM, Walking Cat Bed said:

I'm a huge supporter of fair medical leave: if someone, say, breaks a leg and is more comfortable working from home during recovery (or taking a few weeks off to focus on recovery before easing back into work), they should have that time available. Because maternity leave, at least the initial month or two, is equally about recovery from childbirth as it is about mother-baby bonding, the medical aspect of maternity leave should have corresponding medical leave available to all.

Likewise, personal time off should be available to all who qualify. After the recovery time, the rest of maternity leave is bonding (and adjusting to the demands of a baby). 

I'm very, very childfree, and I have no problem with maternity leave -- even as a special category. But it's very frustrating to know that, in many workplaces, maternity leave is provided in addition to standard medical and personal leave -- and that the alleged guaranteed job protection isn't always available for non-maternity crises. 

 

I'm also not a huge fan of parents taking advantage of their kids' existence to arrive late, leave early, skip out on shifts, and otherwise let the non-parents in their workplace pick up the slack. (I know this isn't universal.) Or other double standards, both in the workplace and by society -- for example, when I've worked in the graduate student space for my program, I'm expected to keep my music confined to headphones or very quiet. A particular student has a toddler, and said toddler has sat in her cubicle while she (the student) is working on a project. I'd consider toddler shrieks more disruptive than my usual working music, but I can't do much about it; I'm expected to ignore a toddler in what should be a quiet work area. But that's another thing entirely.

 

 

in that case, pray tell why you have the dental and medical appointments of four people, not one, and why you are required to be present when a random third party is sick, and why you would be arrested for being at work on a professional development day for your local public school district. 

[Childless]

On 5/4/2016 at 9:52 PM, EyeQueue said:

This is some cold ass shit. I'm so sorry he had to go through this. Are these people heartless? When it's someone's time to go, you want to be there. My partner's dad just passed away and it meant everything to him that he was able to be there when he spoke his last words and was still lucid.

This happened to my husband.  He asked off (had the vacation day and no one else in his department was off) to go see his dying grandmother one last time and was told he would be fired if he did because they weren't approving the vacation day.  His grandmother passed that afternoon and he never got the chance to say goodbye.  To make matters worse, his grandmother raised him, so she was more like a mother than a grandmother.  Welcome to work life under right to work laws.  It sucks.  I can't wait to leave this hell hole of a state.

[bashfulpixie]

I hate how work-focused this country is as a whole.  I wish we could be more like other developed countries where vacations and mental health days were considered important and that work/life balance was a focus.

[EyeQueue]

On 5/5/2016 at 7:57 AM, Childless said:

This happened to my husband.  He asked off (had the vacation day and no one else in his department was off) to go see his dying grandmother one last time and was told he would be fired if he did because they weren't approving the vacation day.  His grandmother passed that afternoon and he never got the chance to say goodbye.  To make matters worse, his grandmother raised him, so she was more like a mother than a grandmother.  Welcome to work life under right to work laws.  It sucks.  I can't wait to leave this hell hole of a state.

I'm so sorry this happened to him. Yeah, I was going to ask if that was in a so-called "right to work" state.

[adidas]

I don't know if I will be able to express myself very well, but here goes.

Are there any cases of people going on sabbatical and having it negatively affect their career the way going on maternity leave often does? We all know horror stories of employers skirting the law and managing to skate just on the right side of it when it comes to maternity leave, but does this happen with sabbatical too? I honestly don't know, this is not a rhetorical question.

So sure. Let this woman go on "me-ternity" leave, but only if she accepts the career setbacks that sometimes go along with it. Let her be looked over for promotion, let her miss out on professional development opportunities, let her experience all of the roadblocks that come along with it.

I just googled and this was the first link. I only skimmed it, but it raised some good points from what I saw.

http://ideas.time.com/2013/09/30/longer-maternity-leave-not-so-great-for-women-after-all/

[roddma]

And we don't want to roll back when women were expected to marry and have kids. To think women without kids by choice or not don't deserve time off is misogynist. Hey maybe a parent would love to do something when little Johnny or Susie is in school. Even in 21st century there's  segments of society that would love a "Handmaid's Tale"

[sparkles]

On May 1, 2016 at 0:32 PM, SilverBeach said:

Mommy wars is just a phrase. Perhaps mommy skirmishes is a better term. There is definitely conflict.

I have been on both sides, a single working woman for a decade until my kid came along. Then, I was a single working mother. When I was not a parent, I wasn't bothered by stated or unstated expectations of me because I didn't have children, I would advocate for my needs, vacation wise, etc. No one could make me work to when I thought it was unfair. But I'm assertive like that.

And do you know every arrangement an employee has with the manager? I burned up every hour of leave because I took 15 minutes here, an hour there, to make it all work as best as possible. My childless friends accumulated use and lose and were out of the office more than me! So what? They should not have been minding my business and I should not have been minding theirs.

Americans are notoriously puritanical about work, leaving accrued leave on the table every year, and coming to work when sick infecting everyone else because heaven forbid they should use an hour of precious leave. I would argue that is everybody took what was coming to them, without feeling guilty or worrying about perceptions, we would not be having this discussion. Lack of availability of time off is a straw man in many cases.

Another thing: Call yourself whatever you want, but the term childfree is off-putting to me. It's like saying you are cancer free, disease free, or debt free, something like that. I have no pets, but I would not refer to myself as pet free, as though I am passing judgement on those who have pets as being undesirable.

I am going to make popcorn for the pileon, have at it!

I haven't finished reading this thread yet, but I had to comment on the bolded. You know why I go to work when I'm sick? Because I either have to use my "precious leave," which would be vacation time as we don't have any sick or personal time, or not get paid. Neither one is a very good option. After nearly 15 years at my job, I have three weeks of vacation time, one of which is non-discretionary at a time of year when I can't really do the things I'd enjoy doing on vacation. So I have two weeks to do whatever needs doing. So far this year, I've used 6 vacation days. On aging parents, follow-ups for medical issues, dental emergencies, pet emergencies, waiting for the plumber and other service people, but no vacation and none in sight because I need to hoard my time to take care of business. (Last year, I had three actual vacation days. Yippee!) So do I go to work when I'm sick? You bet. I'll only stay home if I'm running a high fever or I have an intestinal bug that would potentially make a 45 minute commute in the car very messy. Otherwise, I'm going in. And my co-workers to do the same. My boss once wanted to send me home so I asked if I'd be getting paid for the day, to which he replied no. I told him I was staying, very assertively. (See? I advocate for my needs too.)  Please don't make it sound like we're just too damned selfish to give up our precious leave. Some of us don't have the luxury of being selfish.

I'm actually a lot luckier than some people in that I'm allowed to leave early or come in late and use a portion of my vacation time for whatever purpose. A friend of mine works for a small retail chain and she has no paid time off whatsoever. To make matters worse, if she needs partial time off on a regularly scheduled day, she has to take the entire day WITHOUT PAY. There's no coming in late or leaving early. She's also not allowed to swap days with another employee. It has to be requested through management a month in advance. Her situation makes me feel bad if I bitch about mine.

[smittykins]

I worked for almost ten years at a fast-food restaurant, and at one point, they changed the rule about requiring a doctor's note after missing three days, to requiring one after missing one day.  One. Day.  And there was no such thing as sick leave.  So when I developed a sinus infection, I not only lost a day's pay, but had to pay $45 out-of-pocket since I had no health insurance at the time(fortunately, my doctor gave me samples of the antibiotic. And again, this was a restaurant, which involves food and the public.)

[EyeQueue]

This article just came up *again* via one of the local news media's FB feeds. Seems like clickbait and trying to stir up inflammatory comments by posting it on Mother's Day of all days.

[Ali]

I don't like the name Me-ternity. My experiences with taking care of newborns is that it is exhausting. I was also recovering from a c-section and was in a great amount of pain. I was faced with the choice on certain days of letting my baby cry while I change out of my two day old clothes and brush my teeth or remaining in my yucky clothes and leaving my teeth unbrushed to keep my needy baby happy. The first six weeks were not relaxing and me time. Those claiming that they were for them seem like they are trying to start mommy wars.

Six weeks is not long a long enough maternity time. Six weeks is too young for babies to go to day care in my opinion. Someone recently posted an article on here about how there is a significant amount of babies that die their first day at day care. Also, I am not trying to start a vaccination debate, but babies are not scheduled to get any vaccinations besides Hepatitis B at six weeks in the United States. Six weeks old is too young for a baby to get sick.

I think the real issue is the lack of vacation time and accommodation for all employees needs is the real issue. Employers should be accommodating of time off to take care of a close family member or themselves if there is a needed surgery or a serious illness. Employers should be accommodating of employees working from home occasionally or needing to go to appointments. Those who choose to be childfree may need to work from home sometimes to meet a for a repairman or be present for a delivery just like those with children may need to occasionally work from home to care for a sick child. 

I don't currently work outside the home, but I don't think it is reasonable to never expect parents to work late. However, many after school programs and daycares have a strict 6:00 p.m. pick up time. If my husband were out of town on a business trip and the other approved pick-up people were unavailable to help a particular night, I would not be able to stay late. If it were possible to work at home after the kids went to bed on nights when their was no one else to pick up the kids, it would be an easy way to accommodate a working parent without giving them too much special treatment. Working late on certain nights is also not going to work for the childfree. I think the important thing is that employers should have some flexibility for everyone.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:53 PM, Maggie Mae said:

Childfree means that someone doesn't want children. It is that person's preferred state. Its their preferred term. Please use the preferred term. 

If you say so. Childfree, to me is hostile and pejorative and implies that having children is bondage. Childless by choice is not perjorative and gets the point across. However, I will not be using a preferred term or any other because a person's parental status is usually not pertinent to anything so I don't need to be addressing it at all.

To each her own, YMMV, all of that.

 

[Maggie Mae]

On 7/30/2016 at 9:09 AM, SilverBeach said:

If you say so. Childfree, to me is hostile and pejorative and implies that having children is bondage. Childless by choice is not perjorative and gets the point across. However, I will not be using a preferred term or any other because a person's parental status is usually not pertinent to anything so I don't need to be addressing it at all.

To each her own, YMMV, all of that.

 

Childless, as said over and over in this thread is pejorative in that it implies that having children is the preferred state, and that those who don't have children - whether by choice or not - are deserving of pity. Why can't you listen to those of us who have told you our stories, repeatedly, and respect our choice for nomenclature? 

[Meridae]

On July 30, 2016 at 1:09 PM, SilverBeach said:

If you say so. Childfree, to me is hostile and pejorative and implies that having children is bondage. Childless by choice is not perjorative and gets the point across. However, I will not be using a preferred term or any other because a person's parental status is usually not pertinent to anything so I don't need to be addressing it at all.

To each her own, YMMV, all of that.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

Childless, as said over and over in this thread is pejorative in that it implies that having children is the preferred state, and that those who don't have children - whether by choice or not - are deserving of pity. Why can't you listen to those of us who have told you our stories, repeatedly, and respect our choice for nomenclature? 

I'm sorry, but quite frankly I think you're both looking into this way too deeply. Childfree and childless by choice both mean the same thing and most people wouldn't stop to think about what either term "implies". Because, really, childfree doesn't mean that kids are horrible nor does childless by choice mean that kids are the end-all be-all. They just mean that someone/a couple chose not to procreate, nothing more, and neither term is more valid or more problematic than the other because for most people they mean the same exact thing. If people in your life are pitching fits because clearly you must think children are little monsters if you use "childfree" or you must be a freak for not wanting children if you use "childless by choice", they're looking into it way too deeply too. Like I said, usually the general public understands the meaning and end result (no kids) behind the terms and don't put much thought into what they could potentially imply because it really doesn't matter nor is it important. There's bigger fish to fry, imo.  why get into a tizzy over something no one seems to think about?

This is coming from someone who doesn't want children, and yes I use both terms interchangeably. No one bats an eye. And I hope I don't upset either of you- I guess I just don't understand why this is such a big deal especially when no one assumes horrible things of you for preferring one term over another (which is your right, of course).