Is a marriage being arranged for Bria Crawford?

[Austin]

Austin: snarking is by definition unkind. That's why it's called "snarking" and not "discussing."

Fine. But if you have problems with snarking, it being "unkind" and all, why would you spend time on a snark board?

But thanks for the pedantic, condescending contribution of your definition of "snark". I know that since you are so busy doing work for which you are paid I should really be grateful for the time it took you to type that.

:roll:

[aerynoctober]

Fine. But if you have problems with snarking, it being "unkind" and all, why would you spend time on a snark board?

But thanks for the pedantic, condescending contribution of your definition of "snark". I know that since you are so busy doing work for which you are paid I should really be grateful for the time it took you to type that.

:roll:

ROFLMAO wow. Now I know what it feels like to be one of our targeted bloggers. I can say nothing without it being taken badly.

MANY people here have high-flying careers. I don't. Getting paid to do something is rare and unique for me. That was a small moment of "wow, I'm almost operating in the same world as all the other people in their mid-30s on this board, for once."

Lesson learned. Though I'm the loudest and most flamingly liberal person in my zip code and have a ton of relevant experience from growing up fundie, I'm still not politically correct enough to post here without the patience to painstakingly issue paragraph-long disclaimers for everything that could potentially offend anyone anywhere on planet earth. LOL.

Yes, the above paragraph is my "flounce." I will notify Alecto that my family's standing offer to pay legal fees for the board, should it be needed, is revoked, and I'm done. Buh-bye!

*whooshing sound of Dead Kennedys t-shirt flapping as I flounce*

[Austin]

ROFLMAO wow. Now I know what it feels like to be one of our targeted bloggers. I can say nothing without it being taken badly.

MANY people here have high-flying careers. I don't. Getting paid to do something is rare and unique for me. That was a small moment of "wow, I'm almost operating in the same world as all the other people in their mid-30s on this board, for once."

Lesson learned. Though I'm the loudest and most flamingly liberal person in my zip code and have a ton of relevant experience from growing up fundie, I'm still not politically correct enough to post here without the patience to painstakingly issue paragraph-long disclaimers for everything that could potentially offend anyone anywhere on planet earth. LOL.

Yes, the above paragraph is my "flounce." I will notify Alecto that my family's standing offer to pay legal fees for the board, should it be needed, is revoked, and I'm done. Buh-bye!

*whooshing sound of Dead Kennedys t-shirt flapping as I flounce*

Why doesn't this response surprise me in the least?

[Witsec1]

Wow, didn't see that flounce coming.

I think the turning point was when she posted the question from her friend the nice-guy-who-can't-get-a-date, about how there was no hope because all the nice intelligent women like Alan Rickman. Or something. And then before that, there was something about how some spat on FJ was proof !!!111!! of why women don't deserve equality. Because, you know, teh menz never have stupid arguments on the Internet - SIWOTI is solely a female disease.

[Witsec1]

*whooshing sound of Dead Kennedys t-shirt flapping as I flounce*

Jello Biafra is unimpressed by your flounce

[Austin]

IIRC, the last flounce I remember was when she was upset with the younger, uppity college-aged posters on the board.

For the record, I never suggested she should leave, but I thought with all her complaining about the snarkiness (unkindness), asking her why she would choose to spend time at a board dedicated to snarking was a fair question. I note that she did not answer it. Guess it hit a nerve. :shock:

[bananacat]

I think it's perfectly legitimate to snark on a teen's bad writing when it's a symptom the terrible upbringing and education her ridiculous parents gave her. 17 year-olds aren't delicate little flowers. If she finds us snarking on her, then she has bigger issues than hurt fee-fees because she will have to be at a point where she's discovering there's more out there than her sheltered life.

[nuri]

Fine. But if you have problems with snarking, it being "unkind" and all, why would you spend time on a snark board?

I am obviously not aeryn, and well, I wouldn't want to be right now. But I kinda understand this. It's hard for me to actually snark the way other people seem to. I like reading some of the comments, and certainly the discussion, but I get more uncomfortable when it gets in the insult range. Which is funny, cause I'm no stranger to snark. I cut my teeth early on fandom wank, on LJ snark boards.

This is one of the best places to learn about the inner workings of this lifestyle, while the more mainstream media focus is on politics, FJ focuses on lives.

And I think that's why I get uncomfortable sometimes. In a lot of the other snark boards I'm on, the focus is on people's output. A fanwork, a bad pagan ritual. Not on the person's actual life, no matter if it is a public journal or not. Here, since the output is a persons life, you can't avoid it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad right now, just that it sometimes makes me uncomfortable, and that the snark I'm used to has been different (there are reasons I usually avoid oh no they didn't, after all) and that I can understand why someone would want to be here, despite that.

[Austin]

[i'm not saying it's good or bad right now, just that it sometimes makes me uncomfortable, and that the snark I'm used to has been different (there are reasons I usually avoid oh no they didn't, after all) and that I can understand why someone would want to be here, despite that.

I would be surprised if most FJers aren't uncomfortable at times. I know I am. But there's a difference between being uncomfortable and stating that definition of snark is is being unkind. Presumably, a decent person does not set out to be unkind, so if you equate snark with unkindness, why would anyone spend time with a community dedicated, among other things, to what you consider to be unkind?

And to be clear, in asking that question, I was not trying to push aerynoctober off the board, at all. I have actually asked that question of many people at FJ. I have reminded many posters of the title of this forum. As have many others. Pointing that out does not mean that a person is being "targeted", except perhaps in their own minds.

I actually liked aerynoctober and often enjoyed her posts. But FJ is a place where people will get called out on their BS/hypocrisy/whatever. I've been called on mine. And on those occasions when I've gone back and looked at the exchanges later, I often realize I was just not having one of my better days. *clears throat* ;)

My final remark to her was probably not particularly productive, but I was a bit tired of her posting and then saying stuff to the effect of "I'm gonna post this but because I'm so busy with my real life doing real work making real money I won't be defending my position". This was not the first thread, by a long shot, that she has made that sort of statement. It just kind of hits me wrong because of what she seems to be implying. Most FJers have worthwhile pursuits and real lives.

[Rosa]

FWIW, i got distracted and forgot to post - I am actually really glad to see Bria out there with some chance of meeting people and catching a young man's attention. I would have guessed her mom would squash her more. Somewhere out there is a young fundie man who thinks Bria's writing is fascinating and deep and true and is going to scoop her out of Kelly's house.

[Austin]

Rosa, I thought that, too. She shouldn't have any trouble attracting a young man which I can only assume is her goal at some point. She's a very pretty girl, I think.

[nuri]

I would be surprised if most FJers aren't uncomfortable at times. I know I am. But there's a difference between being uncomfortable and stating that definition of snark is is being unkind. Presumably, a decent person does not set out to be unkind, so if you equate snark with unkindness, why would anyone spend time with a community dedicated, among other things, to what you consider to be unkind?

Just to play a little, one reason I stick around even when I feel FJ crosses a line, is because this really is the only game in town to talk about the daily lifestyle as opposed to the political stuff. I'm not all that interested in politics (I get enough of that at home, thank you!). I kinda think that FJ has two purposes that are intertwined: Discussion and snark. And when people who think it is exclusively one or the other go up against each other, we're going to have some internal strife.

(I wrestle with thinking that snark is unkind myself, sometime. It goes against What Would Mister Rogers Do? Which is one of my mantras. But where else to go to discuss? So I just try to keep my own snark to a minimum)

[acheronbeach]

I actually would have difficulty snarking on most 17 year olds - but I have no trouble snarking on a 17 year old who's putting herself out there as an expert in literature (to adults, no less). I honestly have no idea what Bria or Kelly are thinking. It exposes Kelly's failure as a homeschool teacher.

I don't think Bria will have trouble finding a husband, either. I do, however, worry about what sort of education her children will receive. I worry that we're witnessing each generation of quiverfullers getting perpetually less educated.

[acheronbeach]

(I wrestle with thinking that snark is unkind myself, sometime. It goes against What Would Mister Rogers Do? Which is one of my mantras. But where else to go to discuss? So I just try to keep my own snark to a minimum)

I respect those who are here to discuss, who don't participate in any snarking, and who gently remind us when we may be going over the line.

I don't respect a hypocrite.

(and I don't mean you, nuri)

[Witsec1]

Nuri, I think it's worthwhile to have these conversations about line-drawing. I don't think AerynOctober's approach was the best though.

What, in particular, crosses the line for you? Do you think the whole thread was inappropriate?

[Cat]

Yes, she is a Crawford. She calls her stepdad for dad. She doesn't know her bio-dad. Kelly has said so herself, that they don't have any contact.

Her name is Bria Savana Crawford. She is 17 years old (someone here asked). I think she will be married quite soon. After all, Kelly has said they both hope to get pregnant at the same time. She even suggested that Bria would get her first child in her earliest 20s. So yeah, Bria better get married soon and become a baby-making machine. Btw. has anyone else reacted on who held the new-born baby down in the basement during the tornado? Bria wrote that she held her baby-brother. I think that is quite telling actually.

Btw. Kelly has 3 siblings, if anyone would want to know. They seem quite religious as well. Her brother has been a missionary. Chris Liverett (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=711122754). Her sisters: Cheryl Voss /http://www.facebook.com/cheryl.voss?ref=ffl) and Shelia McBrayer (http://www.facebook.com/shelia.jeffers?ref=ffl). Her mother Phyllis Liverett: (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 30&ref=ffa)

The Liverett-family: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater

Wow, many small children.

Kelly's profile with photos (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 48&ref=ffl).

I didn't realise Kelly had other siblings, she's only ever mentioned Chris on her blog. I think he has only two or three children, and have often wondered if this is because he disagrees with her quiverful beliefs.

The person Bria nannied for in England is Jennie Chancey. Kelly is very proud that the likes of Jennie Chancey and Stacie McDonald are her friends.

[Austin]

Just to play a little, one reason I stick around even when I feel FJ crosses a line, is because this really is the only game in town to talk about the daily lifestyle as opposed to the political stuff. I'm not all that interested in politics (I get enough of that at home, thank you!). I kinda think that FJ has two purposes that are intertwined: Discussion and snark. And when people who think it is exclusively one or the other go up against each other, we're going to have some internal strife.

(I wrestle with thinking that snark is unkind myself, sometime. It goes against What Would Mister Rogers Do? Which is one of my mantras. But where else to go to discuss? So I just try to keep my own snark to a minimum)

Just to be clear, when I was saying "you" in my post, I wasn't referring to you, Nuri. I just meant generally.

I do agree with you that we do both: discussion and snark. And I do not think the purpose of FJ is exclusively one or the other. At all. I think we do/are many, many things here.

Everyone has to be authentic to themselves and know what their comfort level is with certain things. I don't fault anyone for doing that and do it myself (fairly often). But I try not to make moral judgments about people who have differing sensibilities than I do. There are a lot of things discussed here that I don't care about at all. For instance, as weird as it seems, I am almost completely disinterested in anything to do with the Duggars. I find them boring as hell and don't care what they think or say about anything. That's just me :D , and I know that, so I just stay out of threads that have to do with them for the most part.

There are things that make me feel uncomfortable or for which I know I'm going to disagree. And every time I get involved in one of those discussions, it's a judgment call and I have to decide whether I have the energy or interest level to defind my POV.

We are all just making our way here, just as with anything else. We're going to disagree and argue and even be disagreeable at times. I try to keep in mind that whatever occurs, it's not fatal.

[nuri]

Not this thread in particular -- if it were even a couple of years younger, I'd have more of an issue. But at 17, you need to be able to understand criticism. I'd take compassion, since of course, she probably doesn't have the years of rudimentary criticism that public schools provide. I don't think the topic, if a marriage is being arrange, is out of line.

A main line crosser for me is snarking on physical appearances, and actual snark on mental states (discussion is usually okay. That line can get fuzzy). I want to say there's a line between snarking on the person and snarking on the persons lifestyle, but even I'm not sure where that is. I know I try to stick to ideas and actions, myself. I might fail at that sometimes, but it is what I try.

And trust me, I know none of this is directed towards me. I'm just hoping to present a similar point of view without nearly as much drama.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't agree that Bria was being pilloried in this thread and I don't agree that aerynoctober was being "treated like one of our targeted bloggers." Lots of us have disagreed with one another far more harshly and over way more extended threads without the GOODBYE CRUEL WORLD drama.

Also, as other posters have noted, this isn't aerynoctober's first flounce. She left once at the old board (in a post titled "My Last Word") over Free Jinger not being "free of religious bullshit" on an epic gay marriage thread. Which iirc led to several flouncings, but I doubt any of them stuck. I will be wildly unsurprised if she turns up again after while. (That thread was also notable for handcuff talking about how real marriage is between a man and a woman because that's what makes him feel warm and fuzzy, and how gay marriage will lead to people marrying their toasters. Fun times!)

That said, aerynoctober, I have agreed with and enjoyed reading loads of your posts and I don't think you're any bitchier than most of the rest of us. I do find the serial flouncing and the moral superiority overdone, but hey! You're done with us again anyway.

Previous flounce:

My last word

Not that I expect anyone to read the whole thread at this point, but as I said quite clearly, I avoid politics and religion in the workplace like the plague. I am a minority in both regards and in a right-to-work state, one can be fired at any time for no reason at all.

Now that I work for myself, from home, this is much less of an issue. But in case you're curious, both times it was when people happened to walk out to my car with me after 5 p.m., see my bumper stickers, and that was that. I give one of them credit in that they at least asked if I was borrowing someone else's car. One said that they hadn't realized I was "a radical" under they saw my car. The other said that "the covering of the Lord has kept this business afloat in a couple of bad economies now, and your support for the sodomite agenda will remove His hand of anointing." These are not out of the mainstream sentiments in Alabama, where I was living at the time. These were quite normal, ordinary ideas. Two labor law attorneys declined to take my wrongful termination case because in Alabama they can fire you for not liking your hair color, whoopty-doo.

Gizmola and others: I deconverted at 18 and became a full atheist over a four year period after that. I'm well over a decade into my atheism. My anger here is MUCH more about this being a place I felt safe from religious bullshit than anything else. It's not the typical zeal of someone whose worldview has recently radically changed. The change is not recent.

Handcuff: your Separate-but-Equal bullshit didn't work for racial integration and it's not going to work for the civil right of marriage. Just as happened in my home state fifty years ago, judges will force you to get over your prejudice by following the Constitution and applying equality to all. And you didn't couch your Rush Limbaugh rhetoric carefully enough. I can see where you tried, but you slipped in three of his catch-phrase sentiments in paraphrase.

Try harder next time to pretend like you're not taking your sentiments from the puppet master.

Rush Limbaugh: the childless, four-times-married voice of the Family Values right. Amen and amen.

As I said, I work for myself. I just got an email this morning that a job I'd been hoping to get for awhile has come through. I'm going to be extremely busy for a long time, which is great news for the household budget. It's also a good time for me to stop posting here. Several people IM'd me asking if I knew of any boards that were safe from religious bullshit, and the only one I know of for sure is the Atheist Nexus.

When a board whose specific purpose is to snark on fundamentalists is still a place that basic human rights have to be DEBATED, this glorious homeland of mine needs more help than I thought. I need to spend more energy helping gay friends and loved ones and the organizations that represent them DEMAND their rights and less time trying to placate people about what their God/Sky Fairy/Imaginary Friend/Lord and Savior may or may believe about the rights of their fellow citizens.

Liberal Christians: please get louder. Your voices are sorely needed.

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/2579/A ... ion?page=1

Note, I did not post in the epic thread, so let me assert that I am pro-marriage for any and all consenting adults who want to get married, and mostly agreed with aerynoctober on that one. Except for the flouncing.

[JesusFightClub]

Augh, the thread goes all to pieces while I'M AT MY JOB EARNING MONEY Y'ALL. And aeryn, I win because not only did I wear a DKs shirt today, I wore it to work. Oh yeah, and more left wing than you ;)

See how daft these pissing contests are? ;)

More seriously, there are two problematic arguments here. One, that we were supposed to do some kind of research to see if a young woman who maintains a blog where she advises grown adults is of Legal Snarking Age or not. Srsly WTF. And it's "immoral" to criticise her writing when she sets herself up as an authority on good writing?

Secondly, she's at the age where she thinks "I KNOW IT ALL" and interaction will show her that no, she doesn't. That is a normal stage every person goes through. No one said Bria was a terrible person or that she should be shot or that she was hopelessly thick or ugly or any other personal attack. Just that she writes poorly, which she does, and that SOTDRT has failed her, which it has.

When I was 17 to when I was 19 I became involved in politics and I was the most obnoxious little Che wannabe you can imagine. I needed people saying to me "You're wrong about that, here's why..." "You need to read more on this, let me lend you this book" "That's just a rant, who are you going to convince?" and other things to get rid of my rougher edges, teach me important shit I didn't know and make me grow up. Luckily there were people who gave me that advice.

Is denying Bria the same in case she suddenly decides to hate all atheists (how do you think she feels about us anyway, BTW?) kind or nice?

[Effie]

Aeryn, I appreciate that you shared your opinion here. We all did. No need to flounce. You are right. I know we can be a bit cruel. I know I can be. I guess in one way I don't see these bloggers as real people, partly because I have never met them irl (if that makes any sense...). :think: For me they are not that real, I mean. It's not just because they live as far away from me as possible, or the fact that I only know about them through the blogosphere. A lot of my criticism here on FJ has probably to do with the fact that I can't relate to these people.

With that said, when it comes to Bria's writing, I think she writes well (linguistically speaking). Compared to her written English, my written English lacks a lot of the smooth running. Also my English vocabulary is limited. I use the dictionary almost everyday to look up an English word.

[Deleted03]

I actually would have difficulty snarking on most 17 year olds - but I have no trouble snarking on a 17 year old who's putting herself out there as an expert in literature (to adults, no less). I honestly have no idea what Bria or Kelly are thinking. It exposes Kelly's failure as a homeschool teacher.

I don't think Bria will have trouble finding a husband, either. I do, however, worry about what sort of education her children will receive. I worry that we're witnessing each generation of quiverfullers getting perpetually less educated.

but from what I understand Kelly was a school teacher before? Am I totally wrong?

[Witsec1]

but from what I understand Kelly was a school teacher before? Am I totally wrong?

Yes, she was. But the thing is, it takes a lot of work to teach higher level writing. It takes someone who is willing to read your work closely and make suggestions. I don't think Bria is getting that.

[masagoroll]

WTF even happened to this thread??

RE: Nuri's concerns--I feel like we mostly do not snark on people unless they set themselves up as authorities, and/or condemn and judge others, and/or harm their children in some way, and/or are hypocrites. People who post on their blogs in arrogant ways about how great they are and how they are the only right and holy people in the Universe deserve to be snarked upon, IMO!

I don't snark on weight or looks, though. Just terrible personalities and beliefs.