Jewish Dating and Engagement

[longskirts]

For anyone who wants to read about the more Jewish version of courtship, here's one woman's experience:

 

outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/2011/09/so-how-did-you-guys-meet.html

 

I can't imagine getting engaged after just seven dates, but many people seem happy with the system.

[slh12280]

Well that was interesting. Sounds like Christian courtship without all the patriarchal stuff.

[clibbyjo]

I just started reading that "Out...box" blog a few weeks ago and so far I like it.

[julie]

Just note that this is the Orthodox view... When you call it the Jewish version of courtship, that is incorrect- many of us find this whole thing silly :)

[longskirts]

Right, I didn't mean all Jews believe in this. I wanted to say that just like Christian fundamentalists have a courtship procedure, Jewish "fundamentalists" have their own idea of courtship. Of course, not all Jews follow this just like not all Christians court.

[longskirts]

And just to add, not all Orthodox Jews do things exactly this way either. Some Orthodox Jews date for much longer periods of time, for example.

[julie]

Thanks for clarifying. I always feel the need to make the distinction since most people aren't as familiar with Judaism!

[demgirl]

I read the post and then through parts of the blog. I think that form of courtship is as ill advised as all the Christian forms. There are other parts of the blogger's beliefs that I find disturbing as well, such as her post on why her son doesn't have a girlfriend. But she's certainly more thoughtful and articulate than the Christian fundies we read every day.

[fundyfunland]

Some of my orthodox friends met their SO by being set-up on shidduch (agreed upon) with a like minded Jew, whether the other Jew lived in the same city, province or even a different country. Most of my orthodox friends though ,just date like any other person their age does, although they're more likely to go on JDate.com or go to Jewish singles functions to meet potentials.

Chareidi jews on the other hand seem to be more strict about the shidduchim procress. It's more of an introduction/matching service these people offer. From what I know, there's not an ounce of patriachy involved in any of this. No, the boy doesn't have to get the blessing of the father b/f courting his daughter. The 2 adult children meet on their own (maybe with their parents help).

Anything outside the Orthodox world is pretty much the same as mainstream, with emphasis placed only ensuring Jew-Jew coupling.

[Joykins]

Well that was interesting. Sounds like Christian courtship without all the patriarchal stuff.

Sort of. Seems like a great deal of trouble is taken to ensure that either young person can bail with tact if things don't work out; not a lot of nonsense about "guarding your heart" or pressure that it should work out or you've given your love inappropriately. Also it seems that it ensures that the young people are making the choices themselves. Those are the 2 main problems I have with "Christian courtship"--the no-touching thing isn't for me, but I don't see anything wrong with it per se.

My Jewish friends aren't Orthodox so they don't do this, but I have older Hindu friends with arranged marriages; one who kind of eloped because she wanted to marry her husband (it took YEARS for her parents to come around after that); but the younger ones seem to find their own spouse and then ask their parents to make the traditional arrangements afterwards.

[longskirts]

Personally I am fine with the no-touching thing. I think it can be a good thing to concentrate on the emotional relationship before starting a physical relationship.

I think you will find patriarchal ideas in a few segments of right-wing Orthodox Judaism, though. For example, from a recent article in a popular Orthodox women's magazine:

"Earning a paycheck empowers a woman in ways that may undermine her ability to be an ishah kesheira, a nurturing and supportive wife. The ability to subordinate her needs and desires to that of her husband and family may suffer as a result"

Source is: dovbear.blogspot.com/2011/09/big-bad-bina-article.html#more

[snarkykitty]

I really enjoyed her story! As you know, I'm not fundie but I deeply respect my faith and heritage. I just don't feel the need to preach to others about it!

[FaustianSlip]

I have some friends who are Orthodox (Modern Orthodox), and they didn't date like this, so far as I know; it was pretty normal, meet a nice girl, go out on some dates and then get married kind of stuff. Based on what I've seen/heard/read, the further right you go, the more likely you are to get a scenario of going on two shidduch dates and getting married, or whatever. Not surprising, really.

I do think there are some pretty significant differences between what's described in the post above and the whole patriarchy thing. When she talks about first being offered this guy as a possibility, it's not presented as, "We've decided he'll court you," but with her parents asking her opinion. She wants to wait (to get further education! Scandal!), and that's okay. Either of them can back out at any point during the process, which isn't seen as "giving away pieces of your heart" or some other mournful tragedy. And it looks like The Talk was given well before the marriage, rather than the groom's husband throwing him a few CDs from some pastor on his way out the door to his honeymoon. It's not the way I'd do things, but I do think it's distinctive from the way Christian patriarchy plays out (though, as has been mentioned, the further to the right you go, the higher the likelihood you'll see the patriarchy ratchet right up- though even in Hasidic communities, women are allowed to say they're not interested after they go on a date with someone).

Personally, I do most of my Jewish dating either via sites like JDate or through people I meet in person, though with my schedule, sometimes I think there might be something to be said for a middleman to set me up so all I have to do is just show up. :roll:

[Joykins]

Personally I am fine with the no-touching thing. I think it can be a good thing to concentrate on the emotional relationship before starting a physical relationship.

I think you will find patriarchal ideas in a few segments of right-wing Orthodox Judaism, though. For example, from a recent article in a popular Orthodox women's magazine:

"Earning a paycheck empowers a woman in ways that may undermine her ability to be an ishah kesheira, a nurturing and supportive wife. The ability to subordinate her needs and desires to that of her husband and family may suffer as a result"

Source is: dovbear.blogspot.com/2011/09/big-bad-bina-article.html#more

But don't a lot of ultra orthodox women work so their husbands can study their religion?

[longskirts]

Some do, but definitely not all. In many cases, the wives work for only a short period of time.

[Beeks]

Does anyone think her most recent post is about us?

[bea]

I don't think she's talking about us. She's talking about negative blogs - we're not other bloggers, we're not attacking her, we're saying "huh" about her courtship and she's probably heard that a gadjillion times before.

As she explains it, the courtship process for her seemed much less parent-driven than the fundie model.

[Ralar]

Some of my orthodox friends met their SO by being set-up on shidduch (agreed upon) with a like minded Jew, whether the other Jew lived in the same city, province or even a different country. Most of my orthodox friends though ,just date like any other person their age does, although they're more likely to go on JDate.com or go to Jewish singles functions to meet potentials.

Chareidi jews on the other hand seem to be more strict about the shidduchim procress. It's more of an introduction/matching service these people offer. From what I know, there's not an ounce of patriachy involved in any of this. No, the boy doesn't have to get the blessing of the father b/f courting his daughter. The 2 adult children meet on their own (maybe with their parents help).

Anything outside the Orthodox world is pretty much the same as mainstream, with emphasis placed only ensuring Jew-Jew coupling.

That's my understanding also.

My family runs the gamut from: converted to Christianity, converted from Christianity, Jewish Renewal, Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox, Traditional Orthodox, Hasidic. My favorite cousin is married to a Methodist minister, and I have cousins who are Jewish Renewal rabbis (2), a Chabad rabbi, and s Chabad seminary student.

[Ralar]

Some do, but definitely not all. In many cases, the wives work for only a short period of time.

Oftentimes they study education and work until they start a family. That's what several of my Modern Orthodox cousins did. Others continued to work after they had children, and they received free or reduced tuition at the day schools where they taught. My Chabad rebbetzen has a master degree in special education (as does the former rebbetzen of a Conservative shul I attend), and works as the directer of the local Chabad pre-school.