Honest Question About Christianity

[Eternalbluepearl]

How could anyone ever join Christianity and feel that they are doing it right when every single detail seems to be up for debate? For example, according to Erika Shupe, listening to modern Christian music is wrong. According to others it's ok to worship Jesus through song however you feel moved to. How would a follower of Jesus ever get this stuff right? It's all so conflicting and everyone believes different things and believes the Bible is saying different things. It's not just music but how one should dress dating rules, education, food, on and on it never ends. It makes my head spin.  I don't see the point of attempting it. So if there are so many different opinions on what's right, how does anyone feel that they are an authority? And since none of us has met God, how do you know any of this real anyway? I just don't get the confidence I guess. Maybe this isn't a question and I apologize for rambling. 

[kpmom]

How could anyone ever join Christianity and feel that they are doing it right when every single detail seems to be up for debate? For example, according to Erika Shupe, listening to modern Christian music is wrong. According to others it's ok to worship Jesus through song however you feel moved to. How would a follower of Jesus ever get this stuff right? It's all so conflicting and everyone believes different things and believes the Bible is saying different things. It's not just music but how one should dress dating rules, education, food, on and on it never ends. It makes my head spin.  I don't see the point of attempting it. So if there are so many different opinions on what's right, how does anyone feel that they are an authority? And since none of us has met God, how do you know any of this real anyway? I just don't get the confidence I guess. Maybe this isn't a question and I apologize for rambling. 

But couldn't you say the same about any of the world's religions?

[louisa05]

In my experience, most people outside of evangelicalism (including all stripes of fundies), don't get caught up in issues like you cite. I grew up mainly in mainline Protestant churches and attended Catholic school from 7th-12th grade. When I got a job in a fundie-lite/evangelical Christian school, I was absolutely astounded that people got wound up over every little thing in life having to be "biblical" and church-approved down to what cursive teaching method would be used for third graders and what colors of nail polish were acceptable. I had never encountered that level of obsessiveness before. 

As for people within those circles who do believe that being a Christian requires that level of obsessiveness to details and rules, I find that they are people who crave rules to give them structure or they are people who enjoy the power trip of dictating these things to others. 

All of it comes from the theological departure of the Second Great Awakening when it began to be preached that biblical interpretation is a personal matter and theological training or understanding doesn't matter. A good book about that change in American Christianity is The Democratization of American Christianity by Nathan O. Hatch. 

(And I just realized that this response is also rambling...sorry. Hope some of it makes sense). 

[Sobeknofret]

I'm a Christian of the liberal stripe, and the truth is, I just don't get wound up in the little nitpicky minutia that Evangelicals do. As far as I can tell, we have a lot of liberty to decide issues for ourselves, and that liberty is a good thing. A lot of Evangelicals have decided that if the Bible doesn't explicitly permit something, then it's forbidden. Most sane Christians have decided that if the Bible doesn't expressly forbid something, then we have the freedom to decide for ourselves.

And most of us in the liberal camp also A.) don't believe the Bible is inerrant or literal. The OT is a history of a tiny tribe of desert nomads that needed a way to survive and separate themselves from their neighbors. We know about translation errors and the use of metaphors, allegories, etc., and B.) most of us are comfortable with uncertainty. We're well aware that some things we're not going to know until we get where we're going, and that's ok. Most of us don't have the need to obsessively pick at all the details and minutia.

[lizzybee]

How do you feel like you're doing it right?

Easy answer - You don't. I mean you can look at all the different types of Christianity, all of whom claim they're "doing it right" and see that it's confusing. I have always wondered if someone else was doing it better a different way than we were. I think that's partially due to my personality though - some people exist in absolutes and once they decide something that's that. It must be very relaxing to be assured you're always right. I wouldn't know. 

Coming from a controlling step mother type situation (I empathize with the Shupe children) I have an attraction for rules and doing things correctly. Christianity can be really vague on some of their rules. Try to figure out exactly what the bible says about head coverings for example - Literal? Long Hair? Your Husband? 

I also have a problem translating the concept of "the bible is 100% true" with "but you don't have to do that literally." Huh? I don't? But you said...nevermind.

If I'm going to subscribe to something, I feel like I ought to do it right, and exactly how it says. But when you can't decide exactly what it says that becomes problematic. 

It screws with my head as well. 

[Rachel333]

I have a hard time understanding how people can feel like they are the only ones who have it all right when there are so many different views out there. It seems so arrogant to me. With a lot of issues within Christianity, like predestination/freewill, women's roles, eschatology, etc., most Christians will acknowledge that someone can disagree and still be a Christian, but even just the certainty that Christians are right and other religions are wrong feels really presumptuous to me. Of course there are always liberal Christians who step in and say they don't believe all that, and that's fine (I think liberal Christianity isn't very logically consistent, but I like them as people and would like to see more Christians become more liberal), but Jesus himself is quoted as having said he is the only way to salvation.

In my experience, though, most people really don't consider the possibility that they might be wrong. They might change on small issues but never seriously consider whether, say, Islam might be right.

I've also always found it kind of ironic that the Bible says that "God is not the author of confusion" when it's hard to think of many books that have caused more confusion than the Bible.

[Sobeknofret]

How do you feel like you're doing it right?

Easy answer - You don't. I mean you can look at all the different types of Christianity, all of whom claim they're "doing it right" and see that it's confusing. I have always wondered if someone else was doing it better a different way than we were. I think that's partially due to my personality though - some people exist in absolutes and once they decide something that's that. It must be very relaxing to be assured you're always right. I wouldn't know. 

This is the Maxwells in a nutshell to me. "Do you know where you're going when you die," is just an example of the obsessive need for control and absolutes that so many fundamentalists have. It's not healthy and it's not even effective, unless you want to rule by fear, which is what so many of these families are doing. If you're afraid that any little thing will lead you into sin, you're walking a narrow and perilous path, and any misstep can cause you to lose your salvation, no matter how small the error is. In reality, there's a lot of freedom and liberty in the path that we lead, and while some really rejoice in that freedom, fundies see it as terrifying.

[elliha]

Honestly, I think that god prepares different paths for different people. If one has truly taken the time to listen to what god has planned for you I think you should trust that, for YOU. I am a liberal Christian and I wear a headcovering and while I do not pursue it as present I am drawn to plain dress. I expect this to be something I will do during the later years of my life perhaps after 50 or so. I have tried but failed and now feel I need to resolve other issues before I go there again. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

But couldn't you say the same about any of the world's religions?

Yes, definitely. I should have said religion in general. 

I guess more and more I believe that there is no score keeper in the sky tallying up every time I wore pants vs. skirts or ate pork or had sex or read fiction. I think humans do this stuff to themselves out of the desire for there to be a purpose. I don't think the Jesus as our hero thing is real at all and that someday, Harry Potter could be found as an ancient text and people will follow "The boy who lived." But I watch families like the Maxwells and the Shupes and I think, if you don't like contemporary christian music don't listen to it, but don't assign meaning that isn't there. They act like they know something others don't when that isn't true at all. Frustrates me. 

[Rachel333]

It's interesting to notice too that so many fundies expect other people to fear Hell, while I don't think it frightens them a bit that most Muslims believe non-Muslims go to Hell.

After I lost my faith I still dealt with that fear of Hell that had been drilled into me since I was little. I was reading some ex-Muslim forums and they were talking about having the same fear, and it struck me that even though I never felt like I needed to be afraid of going to Hell for being non-Muslim, that fear of "Muslim Hell" was as real to them as my fear of "Christian Hell" was to me, and then they probably worried as little about Christian Hell as I did about Muslim Hell. It just helped a lot when I realized that my fear of Hell wasn't a logical fear, it was just a product of my upbringing.

[lizzybee]

It's interesting to notice too that so many fundies expect other people to fear Hell, while I don't think it frightens them a bit that most Muslims believe non-Muslims go to Hell.

After I lost my faith I still dealt with that fear of Hell that had been drilled into me since I was little. I was reading some ex-Muslim forums and they were talking about having the same fear, and it struck me that even though I never felt like I needed to be afraid of going to Hell for being non-Muslim, that fear of "Muslim Hell" was as real to them as my fear of "Christian Hell" was to me, and then they probably worried as little about Christian Hell as I did about Muslim Hell. It just helped a lot when I realized that my fear of Hell wasn't a logical fear, it was just a product of my upbringing.

That is a fascinating and true point. I will take that and run with it. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

Honestly, I think that god prepares different paths for different people. 

I totally agree with this. I'm not sure there is a God, but if there is, wouldn't everyone's plan be different? For example, God might want a woman to be a doctor but then fundies say women shouldn't work. How do they know what God has planned? It's God. He who supposedly does not make mistakes. 

[princessmahina]

I think most of us just do what feels "right" to us. I don't really listen to mainstream Christian music, because as a whole, I think it's pretty terrible and boring. I don't really get the debate about it. I think hymns are pretty and, as a whole, better written. Fundies just like to make up strict, frequently arbitrary rules to live their lives by. It makes things easier. Erika doesn't have to stress about where to put another child because if there wasn't enough room, God would give her another house. It takes away your responsibility. 

I also think that part of it comes down to which denomination you choose to belong to. You pick the one that feels right to you and which you agree with the most. Fundamentally, I think all (or nearly all) Christians believe the same things- Christ's love, dying for our sins, etc. The nitty gritty is up for debate but is, IMO, a little less important than the basics. 

[Sobeknofret]

After I lost my faith I still dealt with that fear of Hell that had been drilled into me since I was little.

I'm sorry this happened to you. It was absolutely wrong (and I rarely deal in absolutes! ). I remember reading somewhere a quotation that was something like, because God is all-just, we know that Hell exists, but because God is all-merciful, we don't know if there's anyone in it.

[nolongerIFBx]

But couldn't you say the same about any of the world's religions?

Or even interpretations of the Constitution?

[RosyDaisy]

1) God is the the only authority.

2) We have our beliefs because of faith and trust.

3) Not everybody interprets the Bible the same way or believes it to be inerrant, even evangelicals.

4) Not all evangelicals are just out there preaching. We lead by example, by providing humanitarian aid, which is what Jesus. And we expect nothing in return.

[CyborgKin]

I think it's not about "doing it the right way" but about a process of change and growth.  It's about who God makes you, not what doctrinal positions you hold, practices you follow, or experiences you have.

[JesSky03]

I am Christian and our synod believes the Bible IS the word of God including the new testament. We don't adhere to the laws in the Old testament because we are under a new covenant. Jesus said in Luke 22:20, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Heb. 8:13 which says, "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." We believe Jesus is our savior. We believe in the holy trinity with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. When we take communion, we are drinking THE blood of Christ.  Those are the main differences I find between our synod versus others. I'm Lutheran by the way.

[veron1que]

I think most Christians do not believe their way is the only or "right" way. The problems you cite describe a small number of select organizations. The church I grew up in believed in trying to do good in the world by following in Christ's path. The Bible was considered to be a resource and a tool, but ultimately, it is a book written by man and subject to all the flaws of mankind. There are many Christian denominations that not only believe that other denominations are valid ways to follow the Lord, but also that other world religions are valid as well. In my personal experience I have only met a few Christians who felt if you don't do "x,y, or z" you are going to hell. 

[Toothfairy]

I grew up religious. I'm a Christian but against many of the churches teachings(purity, shaming, abortion, homosexuality, Harry potter, Halloween, antiwomen) I believe God is love.  I believe he created most things for us to use. The Bible is 6,000 years old, everyone interprets it a different way or most don't interpret it at all. Just force our personal feelings on each other. The main problem I have with some Christians is thinking they're the only ones right and looking down on others. The beauty of religion and being different is being able to learn from each other.  Not being a closed minded asshole (Steve, Jimchelle, Jill) who thinks their God's special snowflake. 

[punkiepie]

The issues you are describing pertain mostly to non-essential doctrine and are only considered to be any kind of an potential issue within the fundie, fundie-lite, and conservative groups and denominations.  Most normal, non-fundie, Christians believe in something called soul liberty or personal liberty- and that's when the Bible isn't clear on a issue, or doesn't say anything about it- it's up to the person to decide whether it's right or wrong.  This would be things like music, drinking alcohol, having a Christmas tree, and skirts only.  On these types of issues, the idea is that if you think it's a sin, then it is one, but if you don't, you have the liberty to make that choice for yourself.

When you get right down to it, believing in Jesus, his death and resurrection, and confession of sins- nothing else really matters. You can believe all of the extra crap and it doesn't matter or you can believe none of the extra crap and it doesn't matter- in every christian religion, none of those things gets you into Heaven except through Jesus.  There is a little difference with the Christian universalists- who believe in the end that Jesus will choose to save all  of humanity who want to be saved in the afterlife.  But even they think it's only through Jesus that they will be saved from hell (either literal or metaphorical).

[louisa05]

The issues you are describing pertain mostly to non-essential doctrine and are only considered to be any kind of an potential issue within the fundie, fundie-lite, and conservative groups and denominations.  Most normal, non-fundie, Christians believe in something called soul liberty or personal liberty- and that's when the Bible isn't clear on a issue, or doesn't say anything about it- it's up to the person to decide whether it's right or wrong.  This would be things like music, drinking alcohol, having a Christmas tree, and skirts only.  On these types of issues, the idea is that if you think it's a sin, then it is one, but if you don't, you have the liberty to make that choice for yourself.

 

In Catholic theology, that liberty is discussed as forming a conscience to determine right and wrong for oneself.  Catholics have the right to choose, in non-doctrinal or dogmatic matters, according to their own conscience. 

[FundieFarmer]

As a Reformed Christian, I follow a lot of conservative doctrine that I know wouldn't be a good fit for others- much of which is railed against here, and that is just fine!! For me it is right, but because it is a school of philosophy and theology, I don't expect others to agree.

I hold to the tenet that Jesus is the way, truth, and life as the one big thing all Christians can agree on, and figure we'll learn more once we get to heaven. Anything else is just minutiae, and I don't want to fight with anybody about it.

[FoxyMoxie]

I'm with punkiepie - and as for other Christians, as long as they're not hurting others I don't care what they do. I think diversity in the faith is a good thing.

[sawasdee]

I spent many years working with American tourists in Europe. Apart from closed groups travelling with their own pastor, the only ones who ever asked about worship on a Sunday were the RCs, who would get up at the crack of dawn, or miss dinner, to go to mass. No one else ever even asked about local services.