Fundie/Fundie Lite/Conservative Christian

[Jasmar]

I've been reading and posting here for about a year and a half now, and I'm still confused about the difference between the categorizations. My own background is: raised super liberal, feminist, dabbled in a lot of New Age and pseudo-pagan stuff from childhood through 20s. Converted to Christianity in 30s, became very conservative (both spiritually and sociologically), started homeschooling when oldest was 8, Focus on the Family fangirl, hung on the fringes of patriarchy but never went there. Divorced last year, moved away from Evangelicalism to "Done" as of now.

So as I sift through my beliefs, reexamine them, and try to cut a new path for myself, I'm wondering how the FJ community  differentiates between the groups, families, and individuals discussed here. It's mostly curiosity, and I get the feeling that there aren't really any hard and fast guidelines, but it would still help me to hear others' thoughts.

[foreign fundie]

I think all three groups have very similar basic orthodox Christian theology. However, the fundies would have some add ons, such as patriarchy, mathematical end-time believes, no birth control or vaccinations and a very black and white idea of what the christian life should look like. Also, and this is particular to the US, is a strong desire to use politics to make others follow their morals (gay rights, abortion), as well as an extreme distrust of government involvement and regulation (insurance, guns, tax, environment, education). As there is often a degree of social isolation, which results in rules of behaviour and dress that are particular for that group.

Fundie lights may have similar believes, but are not willing to go to extremes. They let reality moderate the practise of their theology. So things like home schooling or courting or wearing skirts may be preferred but are no definite laws. That is unlike fundies who will stick to their theology even if dangerous, like limitless kids if a woman has high risk pregnancies. 

Evangelicals are still orthodox in theology, but would live generally normal modern lives. They would not agree with things like pre-marital sex or abortion, but their woman would work, their kids would be in school and they dress like everybody else.

This is my understanding. But by all means add to it or correct me!

[clueliss]

I personally differentiate between Fundie Lights and Evangelicals.  Because before I turned my back on organized religion I would have considered myself Evangelical.  The last church I belonged to I would have classified as Fundie Light in leaning.  They were very conservative and the history of that particular church is that they broke off from the SBC back in the early 50's because they thought the SBC was getting a bit too liberal.  My attraction to it was because, although it was fundie light leaning it was also what I considered to be an educated church.  The Senior Pastor taught Biblical Greek classes every year to people in the congregation who were interested (and also went from Mid-Missouri into St. Louis weekly to teach at a seminary).  (They also get a fundie light and not evangelical nod from me because they had a Bright Lights program - that I helped co-lead.  Bright Lights is written by Sarah Mally and I consider them to be Fundie).  

[polecat]

I've been reading and posting here for about a year and a half now, and I'm still confused about the difference between the categorizations. My own background is: raised super liberal, feminist, dabbled in a lot of New Age and pseudo-pagan stuff from childhood through 20s. Converted to Christianity in 30s, became very conservative (both spiritually and sociologically), started homeschooling when oldest was 8, Focus on the Family fangirl, hung on the fringes of patriarchy but never went there. Divorced last year, moved away from Evangelicalism to "Done" as of now.

So as I sift through my beliefs, reexamine them, and try to cut a new path for myself, I'm wondering how the FJ community  differentiates between the groups, families, and individuals discussed here. It's mostly curiosity, and I get the feeling that there aren't really any hard and fast guidelines, but it would still help me to hear others' thoughts.

The only differences, imo, are largely external. 

Fundies - long skirts, long hair, often no makeup, no birth control, no touching of the opposite sex unless married, hymns only, homeschooling

Fundy lite -- shorter skirts, sometimes pants, medium-to-long hair, makeup, sometimes birth control, handholding is okay (sometimes kissing if engaged), hymns, classical, sometimes folk music, homeschooling or Christian school

Conservative Christian -- normal clothes, normal hair, makeup, birth control, kissing, handholding, etc. okay but no premarital sex, contemporary Christian music, Christian or public school, sometimes homeschooling

 

There may be finer theological differences as well, but they're not nearly as obvious as the externals.

 

(And all of this is my experience only)

[Palimpsest]

@‌Clueliss, you were a Bright Lights co-leader?  Tell me more.

No there aren't any hard and fast guidelines.  We've always tried hard to avoid defining the categories too closely because people interpret them differently according to their own religious practices.  We also don't confine ourselves to discussing only American Christian Fundamentalists on FJ.  One person's Fundie may be someone else's Fundie-lite.  You also can't go by stated denomination, because there are so many doctrinal differences.  It's like a Venn diagram

For some of the American Protestant Christian groups and families, we discuss here there are a few buzz words.  This is not an exhaustive list by any means and people may disagree with my categorizations.

Extreme Fundie/Fundie

Patriarchial, Covenant Church, Covenant Marriage, Member Covenant, Quiverfull (the LORD in charge of my womb), wifely submission, courtship, Bible Literalist, KJV Only, the Great Commission, Dominionism.

Examples: Gothardism, many IFB, Christian Reconstructionism, Chalcedon (Rushdooneyism), FIC, some Calvinists

Fundie/Fundie-lite

Bible Literalist, KJV and Geneva OK, wifely submission or complementarianism, church membership vs. covenant, dating, evangelism vs the Great Commission, women wearing pants, alcohol and dancing OK for some.

Examples: Some of the (former) Vision Forum folks fit in here and a lot of Calvinists.

FundieLite/Conservative/Evangelical Churches overlap a bit too. 

Born again, complementarianism and egalitariamism, evangelical, not limited to KJV/Geneva Bibles, birth control OK.

Examples: I'd put Southern Baptist Convention and Church of the Nazarene here.

 

 

 

[clueliss]

@Palimpsest yes I was.  (and at the age of over 45 to be an official  leader I had to get my headship - I do not own a headship - specifically my father (let's not go there.  I don't speak to dear old dad) or my husband (nope, Don't have one) to sign something (I used a deacon at the church or someone like that).  (and Grace Mally via tape has the most annoying voice).

 

[Palimpsest]

@Palimpsest yes I was.  (and at the age of over 45 to be an official  leader I had to get my headship - I do not own a headship - specifically my father (let's not go there.  I don't speak to dear old dad) or my husband (nope, Don't have one) to sign something (I used a deacon at the church or someone like that).  (and Grace Mally via tape has the most annoying voice).

 

Oh, my.  Perhaps we should start a new thread because we haven't discussed the Mallys recently that I remember.  Would you like to do that?  I need to snark on Grace trying to convert the evil English in Portsmouth.  It's not just her voice that is annoying.

[foreign fundie]

The only differences, imo, are largely external.

There may be finer theological differences as well, but they're not nearly as obvious as the externals.

 

(And all of this is my experience only)

Of course externals are obvious. However there are things more defining. It is the freedom or lack thereof you experience. Actually for me it is not the externals I take issue with. I went to fundie school and had to adjust what I could wear. And many of my fundie friends were and are fun and free people who love God and don't think to much about what they dress like and why. It is just a habit. Christianity is their religion, fundie their culture. 

However there are those for whom fundie is the religion. They loose touch with reality, with what is right, proper, loving and wise and they lock their minds into a sad religious cage. And they think that cage is the only right place to be for every one. Their kids suffer and they live in fear and guilt. And tell themselves they are the happiest people in the world. That kind of fundie is not a bemusing culture but almost a disease.

[clueliss]

@Palimpsest - done.  http://www.freejinger.org/topic/24710-mallys-and-bright-lights/

[mango_fandango]

Just weighing in here: On the "Large Families on Purpose" website Erika describes herself as evangelical. Some might say that evangelical Christians are ones who spread the Word, like the Maxwells and their tract-giving. Erika is definitely fundie.

[formergothardite]

I think it is hard to pin down a real definition. My version of fundie might not be another person's. I don't really go by how a person dresses or even if they let women work, because there are people who let women wear pants and have jobs who still hold extreme fundamental religious beliefs that they are more than happy to force on the rest of us. 

[Drala]

Just weighing in here: On the "Large Families on Purpose" website Erika describes herself as evangelical. Some might say that evangelical Christians are ones who spread the Word, like the Maxwells and their tract-giving. Erika is definitely fundie.

I asked a Vineyard pastor what evangelical meant for him, and he said "Christians who aren't protestant, meaning they aren't historically tied to protesting Catholicism."  Also, spreading the Word is translated into "living the Jesus lifestyle."

The impression I have is that evangelicals are a very diverse group.

@palimpset, I found your post very helpful.

[Palimpsest]

Just weighing in here: On the "Large Families on Purpose" website Erika describes herself as evangelical. Some might say that evangelical Christians are ones who spread the Word, like the Maxwells and their tract-giving. Erika is definitely fundie.

As @‌formergothardite says, on FJ we tend to use Fundie to mean extremist, ultra-conservative, Patriarchal asshats who try to force their views on us.

For the rest of it, it gets very complicated.  Erika can be Fundie and evangelical and conservative.  Evangelism is central to Christianity but some evangelicals are more Evangelical than others.

Gross over simplification and only using a few examples:

Protestant = not Catholic

Mainline Protestant = church developed early post-Reformation roots in Europe.  Examples: Episcopal, Lutheran, Baptist.

Evangelical = older mainline churches are deemed not biblical/evangelical enough so denominational splits into:  Episcopalian vs. Methodists, Lutheran vs. Evangelical Lutheran vs. Reformed Lutheran, General vs. Conservative Baptists.

Fundamentalist movement  = a person who believes in the 5 Fundamental of Christianity.  The movement started in the 1920s and includes and overlaps some of the above.

I tend to think of "mainstream" these days as a Denomination with many churches, that has a centralized doctrine, governance, and oversight.  They can be fundamentalist and evangelical, but not some charismatic culty thing. 

IFB churches scare me because it is every tub on it's own bottom, so to speak, and they strike me as being very vulnerable to spiritually abusing pastors.

Thanks ‌@Drala.  I am way over simplifying and going very far out to the end of various limbs here. 

 

[lizzybee]

As someone who is still struggling to completely drag myself away from all the fundie/fundie light/evangelistic mess - the conclusion I have drawn is "same turd, different wrapping paper." (These are my impressions for better or worse)

Would you like your repressive beliefs/mind control with a side of skirts and KJV or would you like it with a side of catchy music and complementary coffee? You can have either for the low, low price of: 

-"dying to self"

-guilt over not tithing/giving 10% BEFORE you pay your bills whether you can afford it because Jesus will bless your water bill into paying itself. "Don't be a thief!" 

-eschewing worldly amusements (don't you dare enjoy television shows, secular music, or books that aren't about Jesus!)

-mind control  (you're just not thinking about things correctly, this is what God wants. Here's a new perspective that will keep you doing the three above) 

-being nice to people who don't deserve it even to the point of ridiculous (keeping sweet) 

-intolerance for people "living in sin" and people who want to be tolerant of those people being mocked/judged (I live in the South and I understand that there are churches and pastors working to get rid of this one, but all I have experienced on a personal level is mocking of these more tolerant people). 

-don't drink, don't you dare have a glass of wine and enjoy your life. 

-bible 100% true, no exceptions.

- *creepy voice* "Join us! Bring friends! More brains!" 

I have been to hard shell baptist, to fundamental baptist, to mainstream SBC baptist, to a non-denominational mega church. I have heard courtship, and the things listed above at almost if not all of them. Same message, different package. 

The problem with me is that I'm a literal person. If I can't do literally what you say and have to erect a bullshit filter then it's dangerous for me. That kool-aid is like a drug though. You take a hit, it feels good, put your brain on cruise control. That was the attractiveness for me. "Family, love, Jesus, relationship with God." But at the end of the day it's still a drug and a fairytale. I step off the carousel and get really depressed because then I think about the time I've lost and how much I have neglected myself and my own interests in pursuit of it all.  I'm not saying God is a fairytale (I have decided that it's just okay to just not form an opinion there - the Christian life is about having ALL the answers, having an answer for everything and that's both comforting at times and incredibly restricting in others), but that life - it's not actually fulfilling to someone who isn't wired to just stay shut off and in cruise forever. I tried to pursue it and I have a closet full of skirts to prove it. I've got fundie "friends" (I was stalking Steven Anderson's facebook yesterday and discovered we had a mutual friend. Cool.) I've got mainstream friends and I have fundie lite friends and I have evangelical friends because I've leapt in and out of this rabbit hole (so I have a reference point). It's been real, but I'm really struggling to break the cycle and get back to me. I've decided it's so dangerous. It really is. 

[punkiepie]

I think one good way to help you figure out where someone, or some church, falls on the liberal to conservative Christian spectrum is to look at how they handle differences in non-essential doctrine.  Essential doctrine would be anything directly pertaining to belief in the trinity, Jesus as God's son, salvation through Jesus dying on the cross, and confession of sin. Non-essential doctrine- anything else that does not directly pertain to salvation; this would be things like women as pastors or deacons, skirts only, birth control, quiverfull, dancing, drinking alcohol, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. 

If the church or person in question does not tolerate or allow different beliefs in the non-essentials, they are fundamentalists.  Full Stop.  This would be DPIAT's Boerne or a church that serves to promote the beliefs of para-church organization such as VF, Gothard's IBLP, and Scott Brown's NCFIC.  Some IFB churches fall within this category, but not all.  If they tolerate some differences, but only in areas of personal liberty and not doctrine, they are probably fundie-lite. Personal liberty in this sense would be things like dancing, having a Christmas tree, skirts only, and playing cards. Most IFB, Pentacostal, Brethren, and any church with the word "Reformed" in it fall in this category.  

Moving down the spectrum, you will see more acceptance of differences with a few doctrinal issues, like Calvinism or Arminianism- this would be your Christian Conservative and Evangelical. (The SBC, PCA and ELCA fall in this category)  If differences in most non-essential doctrine are allowed, things like women in leadership, allowing gay members to join, not believing in a literal fiery hell, and possibly universalism- this would be the Emergent churches and a few mainline churches (The UCC, the Episcopal church, UU, some breakaway Methodist ones)  

 

[Drala]

So...where does Pentecostalism for in?

[clueliss]

I'm going to add a definition. 

Dominionist.  (there are a few other tags that go with this, but they escape my poor. addled brain at the moment)  These are the (typically fundie/fundie light) folks who think that legislating heaven on earth will more or less bring on the second coming.  They are attempting to take over such things as government, entertainment, publishing etc.  But they won't tell you that.   They are very end times focused.  (even as an evangelical I didn't trust that group).  

oh and here's a term that will drive many conservative Christians a bit nuts:  Seeker Friendly - meaning the church caters to those seeking.  Seeker friendly can run the spectrum from liberal to high conservative but usually they are out there trying to draw unchurched and nonbelievers in.  (so at times the messages get watered down).  

 

 

[lizzybee]

oh and here's a term that will drive many conservative Christians a bit nuts:  Seeker Friendly - meaning the church caters to those seeking.  Seeker friendly can run the spectrum from liberal to high conservative but usually they are out there trying to draw unchurched and nonbelievers in.  (so at times the messages get watered down).  

Girl, yes. When we were going through the "growth track" at the mega church the pastor informed us that now that we were at this point (joining) that he wasn't really concerned with us anymore, he was all about getting the ones that weren't there yet. That's just "soul winning" with a shiny new spin on it, no? 

[punkiepie]

Most Pentacostals are fundie lite, but there are some that I would call full on fundie. These would be the ones that practice snake handling, demand skirts only,  and believe that a person can lose their salvation.  Possibly anecdotal, but I've noticed most of those churches have "Holiness" in their name.  

[lizzybee]

So...where does Pentecostalism for in?

They can really hit all over the spectrum too. There's fundamentalist Pentacostal, and then there's Hillsong Church who says they're Pentecostal. 

[punkiepie]

I'm going to add a definition. 

Dominionist.  (there are a few other tags that go with this, but they escape my poor. addled brain at the moment)  These are the (typically fundie/fundie light) folks who think that legislating heaven on earth will more or less bring on the second coming.  They are attempting to take over such things as government, entertainment, publishing etc.  But they won't tell you that.   They are very end times focused.  (even as an evangelical I didn't trust that group).  

oh and here's a term that will drive many conservative Christians a bit nuts:  Seeker Friendly - meaning the church caters to those seeking.  Seeker friendly can run the spectrum from liberal to high conservative but usually they are out there trying to draw unchurched and nonbelievers in.  (so at times the messages get watered down).  

 

 

The Dominionists are scary.  Anyone who wants to know more about them and their whackadoodle beliefs- Google Rushdooney.  Not only do they advocate for being gay as a crime, but for their punishment to be death by stoning.  Oh, and slavery; not only was it a good thing, abolishing it was going against God. 

[Drala]

They can really hit all over the spectrum too. There's fundamentalist Pentacostal, and then there's Hillsong Church who says they're Pentecostal. 

Would Hillsong be considered Emergent?

[lizzybee]

Would Hillsong be considered Emergent?

I think there's significant grounds to make an argument for that. I think per their website that their intentions go toward being all inclusive with denominations. 

Wikipedia says they're Pentecostal in the first sentence: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong_Church

 

[freesarah88]

In my experience, there are 3 main flavors of fundies: Catholic, Reformed, and IFB.
It's common for the Reformed and IFB fundies to think that the Catholic fundies aren't actually saved. This is why you see the Dillards (IFB) evangelizing to the Catholics overseas. The Reformed and IFB don't necessarily see each other as Not True Christians, but they definitely think the other's theology is messed up.

You can be quiverfull and belong to any of these groups.

[polecat]

As someone who is still struggling to completely drag myself away from all the fundie/fundie light/evangelistic mess - the conclusion I have drawn is "same turd, different wrapping paper." (These are my impressions for better or worse)

Would you like your repressive beliefs/mind control with a side of skirts and KJV or would you like it with a side of catchy music and complementary coffee? You can have either for the low, low price of: 

-"dying to self"

-guilt over not tithing/giving 10% BEFORE you pay your bills whether you can afford it because Jesus will bless your water bill into paying itself. "Don't be a thief!" 

-eschewing worldly amusements (don't you dare enjoy television shows, secular music, or books that aren't about Jesus!)

-mind control  (you're just not thinking about things correctly, this is what God wants. Here's a new perspective that will keep you doing the three above) 

-being nice to people who don't deserve it even to the point of ridiculous (keeping sweet) 

-intolerance for people "living in sin" and people who want to be tolerant of those people being mocked/judged (I live in the South and I understand that there are churches and pastors working to get rid of this one, but all I have experienced on a personal level is mocking of these more tolerant people). 

-don't drink, don't you dare have a glass of wine and enjoy your life. 

-bible 100% true, no exceptions.

- *creepy voice* "Join us! Bring friends! More brains!" 

I have been to hard shell baptist, to fundamental baptist, to mainstream SBC baptist, to a non-denominational mega church. I have heard courtship, and the things listed above at almost if not all of them. Same message, different package. 

snip

As a former IFB (raised in it, not living in it), I wholeheartedly agree with every bit of this. 

Of course externals are obvious. However there are things more defining. It is the freedom or lack thereof you experience. Actually for me it is not the externals I take issue with. I went to fundie school and had to adjust what I could wear. And many of my fundie friends were and are fun and free people who love God and don't think to much about what they dress like and why. It is just a habit. Christianity is their religion, fundie their culture. 

However there are those for whom fundie is the religion. They loose touch with reality, with what is right, proper, loving and wise and they lock their minds into a sad religious cage. And they think that cage is the only right place to be for every one. Their kids suffer and they live in fear and guilt. And tell themselves they are the happiest people in the world. That kind of fundie is not a bemusing culture but almost a disease.

Well, again, just my experience and with all due respect -- But there is no freedom in any fundamentalist sect. Perhaps some conservative evangelicals allow a little more wiggle room, but ime, fundamentalism denies freedom of thought and action at virtually every level.