Rant on Islam comments

[PregnantPornStar]

when sikhs are being beaten and even killed because people think they're muslims, i would personally classify that as "hatred", along with "ignorance" as sikhism has nothing to do with islam, the men just happen to wear turbans and have beards and the women cover their hair.

i wish there was a way that muslims could have a louder voice to help differentiate them from the extremists, but i think one of the biggest hindrances (at least in america) is people don't really know much about islam and how non-extremist muslims practice it, and therefore the difference between extremists and non-extremists. i think if more people could become more educated on things like that (which is why i really appreciate this thread, as i honestly don't know a whole lot about islam) they would be more open to listening to muslims and how they feel about the extremists in their religion. unfortunately, i personally know some people who would refuse any education and continue to hate just because of their prejudices.

Of course it is ignorant. That matters, but it shouldn't. Hurting people is wrong. People who lack basic morals suck.

[browncoatslytherin]

Of course it is ignorant. That matters, but it shouldn't. Hurting people is wrong. People who lack basic morals suck.

agreed. ignorance plus hatred is ripe breeding ground for horrible acts.

[nausicaa]

I've been tempted to comment on this for a couple of days but haven't because it is both obvious and an oversimplification. But I think many people feel this way about Islam because there hasn't really been a united stand by the Muslim community as a whole against the atrocities committed on 9/11, the videotaped beheadings by Isis, the attacks on Charlie Hebdo and the Australian cafe, etc. I think many people associate these barbaric acts with Islam, even though they were committed by extremists.

The lack of PUBLIC outrage by mainstream Muslims perpetuates the notion that they all condone these acts. And, for those who realize that this is simply is not the case, the absence of such an outcry proves that individual, peaceful Muslims are too afraid of retribution to speak out, which, again, reinforces the negative stereotypes. Add to this the idea that Muslims are intent on creating a global Islamic society and you've got a perfect storm. Fear. And ignorance. But mostly fear. Which breeds hatred.

A Facebook post got me thinking about this in a different way. My friend is Muslim and very liberal. After the Chapel Hill shooting he posted a meme that said something along these lines (I can't seem to find it on Google Image anywhere):

"I'm Muslim and I disagree with what happened today and that someone did this in Allah's name. This is not what I believe in, I never condone violence, and this is not how I practice my religion. There. Was that enough? Did I make it clear enough that I'm not an extremist? What else do you need? A thousand word essay?" (I think the meme is less aggressive than this...)

Anyway, if you're just a regular person working an everyday job and you happen to be Muslim, how exactly do you broadcast your disapproval with extremist Muslims to a wider audience?

I mean, if I were a member of a maligned minority, I honestly wouldn't know how to broadcast that I disagreed with the extremist fringe other than just being a nice, tolerant person in my day to day life and answering honestly if someone asked me about how I felt about extremists/violence. I don't have access to a media platform and Bill Maher isn't going to invite me on his show anytime soon.

[Curious]

I know I'm going to regret this, but...

You realize when you say 50% of Muslims believe in Sharia law that leaves and EQUAL 50% that do not right?

Why is it ok to lump the 50% that don't in with the 50% that do?

[Clementine]

A Facebook post got me thinking about this in a different way. My friend is Muslim and very liberal. After the Chapel Hill shooting he posted a meme that said something along these lines (I can't seem to find it on Google Image anywhere):

"I'm Muslim and I disagree with what happened today and that someone did this in Allah's name. This is not what I believe in, I never condone violence, and this is not how I practice my religion. There. Was that enough? Did I make it clear enough that I'm not an extremist? What else do you need? A thousand word essay?" (I think the meme is less aggressive than this...)

Anyway, if you're just a regular person working an everyday job and you happen to be Muslim, how exactly do you broadcast your disapproval with extremist Muslims to a wider audience?

I mean, if I were a member of a maligned minority, I honestly wouldn't know how to broadcast that I disagreed with the extremist fringe other than just being a nice, tolerant person in my day to day life and answering honestly if someone asked me about how I felt about extremists/violence. I don't have access to a media platform and Bill Maher isn't going to invite me on his show anytime soon.

After Charlie Hebdo + the killings in Copenhagen there were demonstrations to support the people that were killed. There were also love chains around the Synagogue. I went to both a demonstration and the love chain. There were very few people with Middle Eastern background there. (The vast majority of muslims here have their roots in the ME.)

The moderate muslims usually don't participate in the debate at all, this at a day and age when every social account is filled with support for or against different causes. Not online, not at demonstrations.

I wonder why.

[latraviata]

After Charlie Hebdo + the killings in Copenhagen there were demonstrations to support the people that were killed. There were also love chains around the Synagogue. I went to both a demonstration and the love chain. There were very few people with Middle Eastern background there. (The vast majority of muslims here have their roots in the ME.)

The moderate muslims usually don't participate in the debate at all, this at a day and age when every social account is filled with support for or against different causes. Not online, not at demonstrations.

I wonder why.

And the few that have the guts to do it, get death threats.

[ShepherdontheRock]

And the few that have the guts to do it, get death threats.

Friendly reminder that Muslims also get death threats for saying perfectly appropriate and not extreme things all the time from non-muslims. IE Zayn Malik getting death threats for "Free Palestine."

[Whoosh]

If death threats were all it took to extinguish a behavior in a group of people, pro-lifers (mostly Christians) would have stamped out abortion long ago. I got a death threat (from a Christian) a few months ago for saying CPS has the right and the duty to investigate allegations of child abuse. Realistically, death threats are not at all unique to this topic.

[Clementine]

If death threats were all it took to extinguish a behavior in a group of people, pro-lifers (mostly Christians) would have stamped out abortion long ago. I got a death threat (from a Christian) a few months ago for saying CPS has the right and the duty to investigate allegations of child abuse. Realistically, death threats are not at all unique to this topic.

I don't know that christians throw around death threats in Europe, it seems to be an American thing. You should take in more refugees with extremist views, they would feel at home in the US.

The only situation I remember was when an artist made an exhibition where Jesus was portrayed as gay. The christian Syrians in town felt offended and demonstrated quite violently. The Swedish church let the artist display her art in the church.

[Whoosh]

I don't know that Christians throw around death threats in Europe, it seems to be an American thing.

The only situation I remember was when an artist made an exhibition where Jesus was portrayed as gay. The Syrians in town felt offended and demonstrated quite violently. The Swedish church let the artist display her art in the church.

I think the sentence I bolded is a very important point. I frequently get the sense that Europeans don't quite understand exactly what "the culture wars" in America are like. If I am correct on that, it would make sense that a thread such as this one might be approached quite differently from opposite sides of the pond.

[Clementine]

I think the sentence I bolded is a very important point. I frequently get the sense that Europeans don't quite understand exactly what "the culture wars" in America are like. If I am correct on that, it would make sense that a thread such as this one might be approached quite differently from opposite sides of the pond.

Yes, very much so. Europe is very secular, religion is a non-issue in many countries. If people have a faith, nobody cares as long as they keep it to themselves. Religion is pretty much seen as sex: good for you, I don't want to know.

And if you call yourself intellectual, you are more or less supposed to look down on believers and see them as naive or foolish. Christian believers that is, other religions get a pass.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, very much so. Europe is very secular, religion is a non-issue in many countries. If people have a faith, nobody cares as long as they keep it to themselves. Religion is pretty much seen as sex: good for you, I don't want to know.

And if you call yourself intellectual, you are more or less supposed to look down on believers and see them as naive or foolish. Christian believers that is, other religions get a pass.

That is a sweeping generalisation. Europe is made up of countless countries with differing cultures. Small but extremely important example to counter your generalisation....There is NO separation of church and state in the UK :think:

[OkToBeTakei]

After Charlie Hebdo + the killings in Copenhagen there were demonstrations to support the people that were killed. There were also love chains around the Synagogue. I went to both a demonstration and the love chain. There were very few people with Middle Eastern background there. (The vast majority of muslims here have their roots in the ME.)

The moderate muslims usually don't participate in the debate at all, this at a day and age when every social account is filled with support for or against different causes. Not online, not at demonstrations.

I wonder why.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/10/7524731/fr ... rlie-hebdo

Fear. Many wanted to but felt they would not be welcome.

I wonder why.

[Clementine]

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/10/7524731/fr ... rlie-hebdo

Fear. Many wanted to but felt they would not be welcome.

I wonder why.

Is that the reason why they couldn't even tweet a jesuischarlie? Evil Europeans would make them feel unwelcome online?

Why are you quoting Tell Mama? I thought they were more or less seen as not a very reliable source after how they presented the facts of islamophobia after the Lee Rigby killing.

[OkToBeTakei]

I know I'm going to regret this, but...

You realize when you say 50% of Muslims believe in Sharia law that leaves and EQUAL 50% that do not right?

Why is it ok to lump the 50% that don't in with the 50% that do?

Also that in that 50% PPS clings to the beliefs were differing.

Something struck me as I was reading here last night and I think it is the basis of what this thread means and certainly what some posters believe. Prejudice. Probably no more welcome than the bigot label but clearly evident.

When I see a woman wearing a niqab walking down the street my first thought has never been is her husband beating her up. I have many thoughts, is she wearing Clarins under there, is she not baked, does she like wearing it etc etc. I can honestly say I have never automatically assumed the worst thing I can think of. Why would that be somebody's first thought. It really shows a prejudice.

Does it cross my mind when travelling and I see a group of young Muslim men (or what I presume to be Muslim) that they may be nefarious bombers on my plane? Yes. I think it would be a lie after Lockerbie and 9/11 to not have these thoughts. I used to have those thoughts in the 80's every time I heard a Northern Irish accent.

We all have prejudice and fears, what is important to do is recognise that, rather than run around with these dangerous generalisations which cause more bigotry and fear.

[Clementine]

Also that in that 50% PPS clings to the beliefs were differing.

Something struck me as I was reading here last night and I think it is the basis of what this thread means and certainly what some posters believe. Prejudice. Probably no more welcome than the bigot label but clearly evident.

When I see a woman wearing a niqab walking down the street my first thought has never been is her husband beating her up. I have many thoughts, is she wearing Clarins under there, is she not baked, does she like wearing it etc etc. I can honestly say I have never automatically assumed the worst thing I can think of. Why would that be somebody's first thought. It really shows a prejudice.

Does it cross my mind when travelling and I see a group of young Muslim men (or what I presume to be Muslim) that they may be nefarious bombers on my plane? Yes. I think it would be a lie after Lockerbie and 9/11 to not have these thoughts. I used to have those thoughts in the 80's every time I heard a Northern Irish accent.

We all have prejudice and fears, what is important to do is recognise that, rather than run around with these dangerous generalisations which cause more bigotry and fear.

That sounds just awful, you should get help to get over it. The number of hijackers in the attacks you mention was how many? 22?

I can't believe that you would think "possible hijacker" of every muslim male you see in a plane. It seems like an awful and irrational fear.

[OkToBeTakei]

Is that the reason why they couldn't even tweet a jesuischarlie? Evil Europeans would make them feel unwelcome online?

Why are you quoting Tell Mama? I thought they were more or less seen as not a very reliable source after how they presented the facts of islamophobia after the Lee Rigby killing.

ttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ja ... mic-france

On Thursday a delegation of about 20 imams from France’s Muslim federations visited the Charlie Hebdo offices in the 11th arrondissement of Paris and fiercely condemned the gunmen who killed 12 people, including 10 of the magazine’s staff and two police officers.

“People just lump all Muslims together,†said Ali, who worked for Paris city hall. “They associate all Muslims with what those fanatics did. But you’ve seen us here: we are normal people, going back to our jobs. Muslims are not all the same.â€

Aklit said he was sure the murders at the magazine’s premises would end up fuelling more hatred of Muslims. “Which is just … wrong. Because my Islam, the Islam of so many of us, is a modern, moderate Islam. It’s about communication, respect, tolerance, understanding.â€

The Vox article was just the first stating the same about reprisal attacks *shrug*

I recall quite a few tweets from noted Muslims at that time.

[OkToBeTakei]

That sounds just awful, you should get help to get over it. The number of hijackers in the attacks you mention was how many? 22?

I can't believe that you would think "possible hijacker" of every muslim male you see in a plane. It seems like an awful and irrational fear.

I will just assume this is a rather pathetic attempt at sarcasm or you are just a wee bit pissed off as I pick apart your posts for their sensationalised bigoted content. That's ok.

I don't think it's helpful though to derail the thread in that manner when posters are at last trying (in some sections) to have an honest discourse about the issues being discussed.

You have made your beliefs quite plain. Over two threads. Muslims bad. Out of Sweden please.

[Clementine]

I will just assume this is a rather pathetic attempt at sarcasm or you are just a wee bit pissed off as I pick apart your posts for their sensationalised bigoted content. That's ok.

I don't think it's helpful though to derail the thread in that manner when posters are at last trying (in some sections) to have an honest discourse about the issues being discussed.

You have made your beliefs quite plain. Over two threads. Muslims bad. Out of Sweden please.

No, I didn't intend to be sarcastic. It does sound irrational and scary and something to deal with. The risk of being killed in a car crash to and from the airport (with a European driver) is much higher than the risk of the plane being hijacked.

You have completely missed my point: Islamists bad. Swedish politicians should deal with it and make laws that prevent people with Swedish passports from joining terror groups and using Sweden as a country to get funds and plan attacks. And they should stop collaborating with muslim organizations that have extremist views when there are plenty of others that haven't.

I also think that politicians should start to listen to what muslim feminists have to say, instead of trying to silence them.

You say that I am making sweeping statements, but seem to have absolutely no problems making them yourself, calling people you don't agree with bigots or idiots. You do have a very dishonest way of debating, but that is sadly the state in Europe now. I don't know if it's because of general ignorance or just a limited ability to try to see more sides than the one people agree with.

It was possible to shut down a debate or shame people to silence with a "bigot, racist, islamophobe" two years ago but the spell isn't working anymore and people are starting to see debaters like you for what they are: without valid arguments. Try something else.

[sawasdee]

That sounds just awful, you should get help to get over it. The number of hijackers in the attacks you mention was how many? 22?

I can't believe that you would think "possible hijacker" of every muslim male you see in a plane. It seems like an awful and irrational fear.

I think it's a quick instinctive reaction, that is resolved almost immediately. Like OKTBT,, I had the same reaction in the 70s and 80s to Northern Irish accents, and I don't think I need help - it is a brief, irrational moment, recognised as such by me. A little passive- aggressive dig, maybe? What worries me are those for whom it is not a brief moment, and who filter all their feelings about Muslims through it.

ETA I wonder if they are wearing that really sexy underwear that I used to see the ladies buying in Knightsbridge.....It was all satin and lace and to die for!

[Terrie]

I'm of mixed feelings on saying moderate Muslims have the burden of taking a stance against extremist violence. On the one hand, I think all people should take a vocal stance against all violence. On the other hand, why do we require Muslims to specifically take such a stance? To go back to an example I used earlier, the Norway shooter, Anders Behring Breivik, was a right-wing Christian who was motivated by anti-Islamic views. But no one said that Christians or critics of Islam had to specifically denounce his violence. So why are Muslims specifically assumed to support extremism until they prove otherwise?

[Clementine]

I think it's a quick instinctive reaction, that is resolved almost immediately. Like OKTBT,, I had the same reaction in the 70s and 80s to Northern Irish accents, and I don't think I need help - it is a brief, irrational moment, recognised as such by me. A little passive- aggressive dig, maybe? What worries me are those for whom it is not a brief moment, and who filter all their feelings about Muslims through it.

ETA I wonder if they are wearing that really sexy underwear that I used to see the ladies buying in Knightsbridge.....It was all satin and lace and to die for!

I know. I lived in the UK in the 90's and as a ginger with a funny accent I was taken for an Irish woman more than once and experienced awkward situations, especially when carrying big bags. It wasn't until I revealed that I was Scandinavian that people laughed a bit and relaxed. It was strange to be seen as a potential security risk.

[OkToBeTakei]

No, I didn't intend to be sarcastic. It does sound irrational and scary and something to deal with. The risk of being killed in a car crash to and from the airport (with a European driver) is much higher than the risk of the plane being hijacked.

You have completely missed my point: Islamists bad. Swedish politicians should deal with it and make laws that prevent people with Swedish passports from joining terror groups and using Sweden as a country to get funds and plan attacks. And they should stop collaborating with muslim organizations that have extremist views when there are plenty of others that haven't.

I also think that politicians should start to listen to what muslim feminists have to say, instead of trying to silence them.

You say that I am making sweeping statements, but seem to have absolutely no problems making them yourself, calling people you don't agree with bigots or idiots. You do have a very dishonest way of debating, but that is sadly the state in Europe now. I don't know if it's because of general ignorance or just a limited ability to try to see more sides than the one people agree with.

Yes except the sources and quotes you have used on previous threads do not support what you are attempting to say now. Hint. The Daily Mail is not exactly to be taken seriously.

As for the bolded. Mmm Okay. You are talking about moderate Europe. That would be the part not agreeing with you. The ONE people agree with being the side you agree with. Strangely enough I read all types of sources and some I wish I never had due to posters here. You can call me dishonest all you want if it makes you feel better. It really has no concern on the bigger issues. *shrug*

[Whoosh]

I think it's a quick instinctive reaction, that is resolved almost immediately. Like OKTBT,, I had the same reaction in the 70s and 80s to Northern Irish accents, and I don't think I need help - it is a brief, irrational moment, recognised as such by me. A little passive- aggressive dig, maybe? What worries me are those for whom it is not a brief moment, and who filter all their feelings about Muslims through it.

This is the critical part to me. I could spend days on end out and about in the city of Boston and never have a passing thought about whether people are Muslim or not (and I see plenty of Muslims out and about). However, when I get off the train at Copley and head down Boylston past where the bombs went off, that all changes. My awareness of backpacks is heightened, let alone other things. I am sure people who are there daily no longer have this reaction, but for someone like me who only walks that route maybe 4 times a year, it will likely be a while before I stop thinking "terrorist attack" when I travel that path. For obvious reasons, some have a similar reaction to certain people in airports.

[Clementine]

I'm of mixed feelings on saying moderate Muslims have the burden of taking a stance against extremist violence. On the one hand, I think all people should take a vocal stance against all violence. On the other hand, why do we require Muslims to specifically take such a stance? To go back to an example I used earlier, the Norway shooter, Anders Behring Breivik, was a right-wing Christian who was motivated by anti-Islamic views. But no one said that Christians or critics of Islam had to specifically denounce his violence. So why are Muslims specifically assumed to support extremism until they prove otherwise?

I think that everybody who lives in a democracy should defend it.

White Christian Scandinavians had absolutely no problems coming out condemning Breivik or go to the demonstrations to show respect to his victims. Facebook was filled with photos with a Norwegian flag. We were all in it together, against extremism.

Again, I have yet to see any proof that Breivik was religious at all. He describes himself as "culturally Christian" and claims to have no personal faith. Like the majority of Scandinavians, I'd say.