Fundie gives birth in car

[RecoveringFundie]

Wowzas.....did you see her son's comment on that post? You should definitely read the comments. But this one was especially eye-opening---HELLO PUNCTUATION:

"Mom I love you I think I left in a worse way when I rebelled against your authority when I was young n look at me now .I dont think anything could be worse than what I did just sayin lesia wilk come home one day the lord will work in my new brothers heart too they are young to young to understand the lifelong hurt they are causing mom let life run its course lesia know we all love her with all our hearts n tjat is something noone can keep her from we have to love them more than they are showing us n quit frankley all of us need to ask what would jesus do on both sides n I do not think jesus would keep us from a blessed childs birth awful j know but just be the light that God calls us to be n keeo on keepin on moma I love you with all my heart n I cry just thinkin bout what my parents are going thru and at the same time I love my lil sis with all my heart to n I know she needs suport too n wether we like it or not must respect her disisions wether good or bad love is the answer and always has been God changes the heart and soul n nothing we say can ever measure up to that I love you mother n dad n im prayin these days harder than I ever have you will always be blessed for the way you brought us up n the caee n love you have bestowed on us all your work is not in vain I am blessed by and because of you and dad to me you two are the best two people in the world and one day lesia and johnathan WILL know that like I do"

[DaffyDill]

I was just going to post the son's comment, too. It's dreadful isn't it? Most of that rambling is one sentence, there are multiple basic spelling errors and no punctuation. SOTDRT indeed. :pink-shock:

[Jana814]

It's getting even more press!! They were on Inside Edition last night.

[polecat]

So they're fundies and we've all decided he's a bad horrible abusive husband because according to her *mother* he kept his wife away from them for a year (and we all know the kind of loving, stable mothers Gothard usually attracts...:roll). So what? They'd been on the road for 45 minutes, she said keep driving. He asked her if she wanted him to pull over. There was very little he could have done. Furthermore - you want to know what kind of person would calmly sit next to his wife while driving her to a birth center (as she says "KEEP DRIVING")? someone who's seen his wife have a baby twice already and knows how the process works.

Calling his behavior *in this 4 minute video* abusive (I can't speak for the rest of his life because oh yeah, I'm not in it) is just dumb.

Nowhere in my post did I address that issue. In fact, from the mom's FB post, I got the feeling that both her daughter and her daughter's husband might've been involved in that decision.

That said, no, having multiple kids doesn't make one dissociate from a woman in labor. I have multiple kids. I've been through eight pregnancies and three live births. My husband was always close and comforting throughout each experience. If she said to keep driving -- I didn't hear it. But I also didn't hear him comforting, encouraging or otherwise offering her support. I saw him yank her pants down, I heard him tell her "just love him!" in a mocking voice and otherwise seem to dismiss her and her feelings (imo).

And YES. To me, behaving like that towards someone who potentially is extremely frightened (and she sure sounded frightened to me) and giving birth is abusive.

Definition of abusive: extremely offensive and insulting, treating badly (per Google).

[RecoveringFundie]

The most disappointing part of this whole thing for me?

That they didn't name the baby Carson. What a missed opportunity.

[Jana814]

That they didn't name the baby Carson. What a missed opportunity.

That would have been a great name!!

[thoughtful]

So they're fundies and we've all decided he's a bad horrible abusive husband because according to her *mother* he kept his wife away from them for a year (and we all know the kind of loving, stable mothers Gothard usually attracts...:roll).

Well, we haven't all decided that. I'm still trying to sort this all out.

I think that it's clear that they are some sort of fundies, whose picking and choosing included some Gothard stuff (SODRT, lots of babies), but not the strict dress code.

Do we know for sure that the husband forbade her speaking to her mother for a year, and not that it was her idea or a mutual decision? If so, where did anyone find that?

I have not watched the video, so I can't comment on that.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

Nowhere in my post did I address that issue. In fact, from the mom's FB post, I got the feeling that both her daughter and her daughter's husband might've been involved in that decision.

That said, no, having multiple kids doesn't make one dissociate from a woman in labor. I have multiple kids. I've been through eight pregnancies and three live births. My husband was always close and comforting throughout each experience. If she said to keep driving -- I didn't hear it. But I also didn't hear him comforting, encouraging or otherwise offering her support. I saw him yank her pants down, I heard him tell her "just love him!" in a mocking voice and otherwise seem to dismiss her and her feelings (imo).

And YES. To me, behaving like that towards someone who potentially is extremely frightened (and she sure sounded frightened to me) and giving birth is abusive.

Definition of abusive: extremely offensive and insulting, treating badly (per Google).

1. Not every woman wants the same thing from her partner during labor. A man not providing the stimulus or "comfort" that you think *you* would want during labor is not necessarily abusive. He did say "Do you want me to pull over?" and she did say keep driving.

2. Women during unmedicated labor who are pushing are very likely to sound frightened, especially if they are in an unexpected situation. I have been through six pregnancies (7 actually, I'm 36 weeks pregnant) and three live births. I sound exactly like that woman during the second stage of labor, except I'm in the hospital surrounded by health care professionals supporting me and a husband who is usually literally propping me up by that point. I'm still screaming "It hurts so bad" and "get it out of me" and a number of iterations of those kinds of sentiments. Sounding frightened is not the same thing as being in danger.

3. When I say "knows how the process works" I don't mean he's disassociated from it, just that he is aware of how it sounds and isn't alarmed or panicked by those sounds.

4. She did not seem offended or insulted by his attitude. I didn't know they were fundies when I watched the video and laughed through the whole thing because I have been where she is (my third birth was precipitous...though we did make it to the hospital, and my husband had to bark orders at the nurses who didn't seem to register how fast things were moving). My husband watched it and thought the husband was an idiot and an airhead for not pulling over.

Again...calling him abusive because his tone of voice or actions in a very crazy moment didn't match what you think he should have done is quite a stretch.

As for the other stuff - ATI frequently attracts a type of parent who will have zero problems lying to any and everyone to suit their ends. When I married a man my parents didn't approve of (after they *did* approve of him and we jumped through all their courtship hoops to be "honoring") - my mother told lies about us and what we "did" for years. Up to and including that we eloped (when my dad walked me down the aisle), that he prohibited me from talking to them (he absolutely DID NOT and we did talk to them, though rarely because she was so unpleasant and intolerant), etc. She also circled the wagons with my siblings and effectively turned them all against me for dishonoring her and "the family"...all that to say -there are two sides to every story. For all we know (FJSB here) she decided she didn't like the husband because he wasn't as Gothard-y as she wanted and she decided to make their life miserable for it...It's helpful when viewing parent-child relationships within ATI to keep in mind the extreme level of entitlement with which these parents view their adult children and the level of obedience and "honor" they expect from those adults. It's a different world of crazy than your garden variety dysfunctional parent-child interaction.

[DGayle]

I posted about this on Facebook with some links to Lesia's and her mom's Facebook page. A friend of mine messaged me that the birth center they were going to is the one she works at. She said the people who work there are uncomfortable with Lesia's husband and that he's tried controlling appointments, but that as far as she knows, nobody knew the connection to ATI. It threw my friend for a loop because her family was ATI for a few years, but left when they were shunned when it came out her own mom is divorced and the oldest 2 kids have a different dad.

[polecat]

Well, we haven't all decided that. I'm still trying to sort this all out.

I think that it's clear that they are some sort of fundies, whose picking and choosing included some Gothard stuff (SODRT, lots of babies), but not the strict dress code.

Do we know for sure that the husband forbade her speaking to her mother for a year, and not that it was her idea or a mutual decision? If so, where did anyone find that?

I have not watched the video, so I can't comment on that.

The link to the post is earlier in the thread somewhere. The mother did initially say (iirc) that the husband banned her from speaking to her daughter/his wife. But in the comments, she seemed to be implying that both of them had rejected her (banned her?).

That particular part of the story just strikes me as potentially "off" because for one, the several posts she made about it struck me as fairly passive-aggressive (particularly since posted publicly). But I don't know. It could have been all the husband. Or it could have been the husband making a choice on his wife's behalf. It could have been him being a controlling ass. Or it could have been him trying to protect her in some ways.

[polecat]

He did say "Do you want me to pull over?" and she did say keep driving.

[Snarkylark]

I posted about this on Facebook with some links to Lesia's and her mom's Facebook page. A friend of mine messaged me that the birth center they were going to is the one she works at. She said the people who work there are uncomfortable with Lesia's husband and that he's tried controlling appointments, but that as far as she knows, nobody knew the connection to ATI. It threw my friend for a loop because her family was ATI for a few years, but left when they were shunned when it came out her own mom is divorced and the oldest 2 kids have a different dad.

Your friend should be careful. That sounds like a HIPAA violation.

[thoughtful]

The link to the post is earlier in the thread somewhere. The mother did initially say (iirc) that the husband banned her from speaking to her daughter/his wife. But in the comments, she seemed to be implying that both of them had rejected her (banned her?).

I followed that link, and, in fact, went down the rabbit hole of reading a lot of her mother's FB (lots of Obama hate and anti-choice stuff, with a smattering of gun rights and conspiracy theories. Oh, and Mom sells jewelry). But I didn't find a post that made it clear that Jonathan, and Jonathan only, was behind Lesia's silence toward her mother, or that it lasted a full year.

The one posted with a screen shot earlier was from November 2012, and it does sound like the husband is the source of the ban (or the mother thinks he is), but I agree that several other comments make it sound like Lesia had changed and/or distanced herself.

Nothing I could find on Lesia's page said anything one way or the other -- her only post from the summer of 2012 is an ultrasound of the first baby.

I'm not defending the husband, I just am not sure if we know enough. Really, they could all be obnoxious and worthy of our snark. :lol:

Here's another son-in-law, who is trying to convert Thailand. Sorry - he's not as goofy as John Schrader:

[bBvideo 560,340:qf5n9v5t]

[/bBvideo]

[Jana814]

I posted about this on Facebook with some links to Lesia's and her mom's Facebook page. A friend of mine messaged me that the birth center they were going to is the one she works at. She said the people who work there are uncomfortable with Lesia's husband and that he's tried controlling appointments, but that as far as she knows, nobody knew the connection to ATI.

Wow!! Thanks for this information. He sounds like a nut for doing that.

[carolinagirl1001]

Do we know for sure that the husband forbade her speaking to her mother for a year, and not that it was her idea or a mutual decision? If so, where did anyone find that?

I know. I actually know her mother, and a few of her siblings. Yes, the husband forbid the daughter from speaking to her parents and if I am remembering correctly, her siblings, at least the siblings who were still living at home.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

Do we know for sure that the husband forbade her speaking to her mother for a year, and not that it was her idea or a mutual decision? If so, where did anyone find that?

I know. I actually know her mother, and a few of her siblings. Yes, the husband forbid the daughter from speaking to her parents and if I am remembering correctly, her siblings, at least the siblings who were still living at home.

Have you asked her about this? Or just the mother? Because again...these are not the most truthful people and it's rarely beneath them to viciously manipulate the narrative to make it sound the way they want.

[DGayle]

The link to the post is earlier in the thread somewhere. The mother did initially say (iirc) that the husband banned her from speaking to her daughter/his wife. But in the comments, she seemed to be implying that both of them had rejected her (banned her?).

That particular part of the story just strikes me as potentially "off" because for one, the several posts she made about it struck me as fairly passive-aggressive (particularly since posted publicly). But I don't know. It could have been all the husband. Or it could have been the husband making a choice on his wife's behalf. It could have been him being a controlling ass. Or it could have been him trying to protect her in some ways.

Could also be Lesia was so thoroughly indoctrinated that she not only didn't question her husband's decision, but she supported it and told her mom she didn't want to talk to her. Her husband didn't want her to, so she didn't want to to please him.

[DGayle]

Your friend should be careful. That sounds like a HIPAA violation.

I think HIPAA is medical information. She didn't give any specific medical information, and the facility they were going to has been publicly mentioned already.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Do we know for sure that the husband forbade her speaking to her mother for a year, and not that it was her idea or a mutual decision? If so, where did anyone find that?

I know. I actually know her mother, and a few of her siblings. Yes, the husband forbid the daughter from speaking to her parents and if I am remembering correctly, her siblings, at least the siblings who were still living at home.

So what prompted it?

[Snarkylark]

I think HIPAA is medical information. She didn't give any specific medical information, and the facility they were going to has been publicly mentioned already.

If it was my employer, they would fire you for less. Js

[FundieFarmer]

If it was my employer, they would fire you for less. Js

At my org, it would've been seen as a confirmation of patient status, which is a big no-no regardless of what the patient said. If a patient writes on on of our pages publicly discussing their experience, we can only say a very general apology and invite them to message us privately. It's both a legal and a privacy thing (esp if something went wrong). HIPAA is a tricky beast. Mr. FF is a certified HIPAA something-or-other, but I just know how it pertains to my fields [emoji5]ï¸

That is really interesting about your friend's situation. And honestly, this whole thing coming out ATI surprised me, because it just goes to show how pervasive ATI really is.

[carolinagirl1001]

Have you asked her about this? Or just the mother? Because again...these are not the most truthful people and it's rarely beneath them to viciously manipulate the narrative to make it sound the way they want.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

Have you asked her about this? Or just the mother? Because again...these are not the most truthful people and it's rarely beneath them to viciously manipulate the narrative to make it sound the way they want.

Well I don't know about "these people" and to be clear, I would not know the daughter or the husband if they walked up to me in the grocery store. I only know the mom and a couple of her daughters. While my opinions and viewpoints are the exact opposite of her mom, I do find her to be a genuine, loving person who truly walks in her faith. I've never caught her lying or being dishonest. I didn't even know she used ATI curriculum until I saw another one of her older children posting to another friend of mine 's Facebook page. From my understanding, the ban was prompted by the fact that when she basically fled to get married, her family was hurt and disappointed. There was a lot of sneaking around and texting behind her parents' back, pre marriage. If I remember correctly, they felt she was too young to make a commitment like that. He asked about dating her, they said no, not right now. She did anyway. Her family was disappointed and then out of the blue, they were banned. I can personally say I saw the hurt and confusion, it was real, she was terribly missed during the exile.

[carolinagirl1001]

/quote]

I do not know this family, but it's good to remember there are two sides to every story. I have been in similar shoes and those who only heard my moms side were treated to very genuine tears, shows of emotion etc. I am not saying that was the case here, but I am saying again - two sides to every story. We do not know the daughters side of this.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

/quote]

I do not know this family, but it's good to remember there are two sides to every story. I have been in similar shoes and those who only heard my moms side were treated to very genuine tears, shows of emotion etc. I am not saying that was the case here, but I am saying again - two sides to every story. We do not know the daughters side of this.

Oh I know there are two sides- my mother and I have NO relationship and her version of why we don't, is full of tears, blame, and manipulation. And while I'm sure there's back story I am NOT aware of- the husband has always left a bad taste in my mouth. The area we live in is small, I know several people who went to the church the daughter and her husband met in. I've heard, from other people, who aren't fundie, but very conservative, that (his) parents are nice but he's "slimy" I don't know- I made it well known 3 years ago when this all was ongoing (the exile) that I didn't understand any of it, from courtship, to not allowing her to date/court him, to him then banning her family and her going along with it, to his parents not discouraging the banishment.