What an IDF solider thinks of the name Israel

[eri]

So why are you here?[/quote]

Because I want to be.

Because the Duggars are... entertaining. :banana-dreads:

I think that's why a lot of us are here.

Glad we're good with that now.

Haha, if you find the Duggars entertaining and believe the same harmful Torah laws they do, maybe you're a leg humper? Haha![emoji12]

[artdecades]

Here's her reply..

In 1948 when all of the countries attacked Israel right after it had been established a program called Mahal (volunteers from oversee) was started. If it wasn't for the volunteers (or actually Gods protective power) the country surely, in a natural sense, would have lost. The program still continues today. You have to prove you have Jewish heritage (for security reasons) but the program allows you to serve like a regular Israeli soldier, with the exception of a shorter service. It is very rare for female volunteers to do this program, only around 7 a year. Here is more info on it. mahal-idf-volunteers.org

Technically because I did serve and marry an Israeli, I am automatically eligible for citizenship. But I'm waiting to make "Aliyah" (citizenship and the biblical word for ascending) when Moshe and I feel called to move back there. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any more questions. :)

Fucking Messianics.

Aliyah is the act of Diaspora Jews returning to their ancestral homeland. It is not getting citizenship. It is not going to Israel. It is a specific act associated with Diaspora Jews. This lady is not a Jew. She cannot make aliyah.

And, as a diaspora Jew, I am firmly in the camp of being disgusted by Christian Zionists. Christian Zionism does not see Jews as real people or Israel as a real place. Instead, they see us and Israel as tools in their plan for the future. I am not your prop. You can take your faux sincere philosemitism and shove it.

And I would like to say that I am not the only one who feels like this. Pew's religious landscape survey shows that while American evangelicals think highly of Jews (aka Christian Zionist Philosemites), American Jews (the largest group of Diaspora Jews) don't have warm feelings towards evangelicals. While part of that can be due to the fact that American Jews are largely liberal, part of it is definitely that we see right through that Christian Zionist crap.

/rant

[Ella]

I see through their Christian Zionist "crap", as I have stated in other words. I just said I appreciate their current support - it's better than the opposite.

Noooo, I don't believe the same "harmful" Torah laws that they do. They're hardly living a Torah life and have little familiarity with it.

A leg humper? I don't think so. I find the Duggars entertaining. Most of us wouldn't be here if we didn't feel entertained. Some folks play Candy Crush, some play Free Jinger. Not everyone here has to be a Christian burned by the fundie life.

So let's give the stereotyping a rest, okay?

[formergothardite]

Ella, there is always someone who benefits from the fundie mindset that people should do something/support something/follow someone without question. You like the current support but that support is coming at the cost of a very dangerous way of thinking. It would be much better to encourage people educate themselves about the issue and that way you end up with educate support and not people who are supporting Israel because they have been told they have to and have dehumanized the people of Israel and view them as a means to and end. There is nothing wrong with standing with Israel, but there is everything wrong with people only choosing to do so because they have been told they have to and who view the people of Israel as a prop for their End of the World fantasy.

Amy Joy, I would be interested in your friend's thoughts on this issue. Does she see the dangers in wanting people to support something without first educating themselves and making a decision on their own? And I'm not talking about educating themselves by reading Bible verses, I'm talking about learning about what is going on in the region and trying to look at it objectively.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

So I'm just catching up on the latest Duggar crazy. :? :o :snooty: :roll: When I saw the picture of Jill (with her stupid headband, are you worried people will forget who you are???) and baby Israel and Derrick grinning like a dumbass in a GODDAMN IDF T-shirt, the range of emotions would take an essay to describe and I'm still ragey/stabby thinking about. :angry-banghead: I don't want the Duggars and half-baked ideas about the End Times getting mixed up in the political/culture/international relations quagmire that is Israel, but unfortunately they are influential and that photograph is going to have a large cultural impact. :pull-hair:

(Background: I'm a non-Observant anti-Zionist Jew)

[eri]

I see through their Christian Zionist "crap", as I have stated in other words. I just said I appreciate their current support - it's better than the opposite.

Noooo, I don't believe the same "harmful" Torah laws that they do. They're hardly living a Torah life and have little familiarity with it.

A leg humper? I don't think so. I find the Duggars entertaining. Most of us wouldn't be here if we didn't feel entertained. Some folks play Candy Crush, some play Free Jinger. Not everyone here has to be a Christian burned by the fundie life.

So let's give the stereotyping a rest, okay?

What stereotyping? Religion is a wonderful tool for giving people strength and direction, but there is a lot of hate speech in certain religious texts that are worrisome.

If "Torah-observant" doesn't mean "interpret the Torah literally" then you are right, I am incorrect and stereotyping.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, I don't believe that will happen, and in the meantime, Israel receives support.

As I've said before, that's the attitude of most Israelis that I've spoken to.

For someone who was raised fundie, I'm sure that talk of End Times and Rapture and so on would seem terrifying. Perhaps someone would see it as psychologically harmful even once they no longer believe.

If you've NEVER been raised with it, though, it means nothing. Most Israeli Jews don't read the New Testament. There are far more Jews and Muslims in Israel than Christians, and many of the Christians who do live there are Orthodox or Catholic. If they learn anything about Christianity, it's usually connected to history and geography. [Girl 1 recently had a day where they learned about Christianity at her school, so she has some pictures of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and can tell you about the Crusades, but she can't tell you anything about the theology beyond "they think that Jesus was the son of God and the messiah".] If a random person out there believes in something that sounds a bit crazy and thinks I'm going to hell - who cares? All I care about is how it affects my life. Are they trying to kill me? Are they trying to convert me? Are they trying to take away my kids or control how I raise them? Are they supporting people who want to kill me?

That said - the person mentioned in the blog is NOT an Israeli Jew. She's a Christian, who happens to have a father that was born Jewish and converted to Christianity. "Messianic Judaism" is a code word for Christian with Jewish trappings. Her father's online bio blurb says

Harvey Katz is a businessman and Bible teacher who lives in London, Ontario with his wife Diane of 27 years. They have three children, Jessica 25, Michelle 22, and Joshua 20. Harvey is the son of a Holocaust survivor, was raised in the Jewish tradition but at 16 years of age found himself drawn to the person of Jesus Christ. Harvey’s passion is to share his faith with others and travels extensively communicating the wonderful good news of Jesus.

Actual Jews do not automatically have Israeli citizenship at birth. They just have the right to apply for citizenship - it still takes an application and there are a bunch of things that go along with citizenship that not everyone wants. Not everyone who serves in the IDF is Jewish. In addition, many people who qualify to apply for citizenship under the Law of Return are not actually Jewish by religion - you just need one Jewish grandparent, or to be married to a Jew. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, for example, you had an awful lot of people discovering a Jewish grandparent and many of those that immigrated to Israel weren't technically Jewish.

[2xx1xy1JD]

What stereotyping? Religion is a wonderful tool for giving people strength and direction, but there is a lot of hate speech in certain religious texts that are worrisome.

If "Torah-observant" doesn't mean "interpret the Torah literally" then you are right, I am incorrect and stereotyping.

Torah-observant Jews do not, in fact, interpret the Torah literally in the same way that a fundamentalist Christian would. For example, there is no Jewish teaching that the meaning of the text should be readily apparent from a simple reading of the text itself (or a translation of it). Quite the opposite. There is an entire world of additional texts and rabbinic interpretations that even so-called "Torah observant" faux Jewish Christians do not have. The style of scholarship, the rules that are followed, and the interpretations are very different.

[artdecades]

As I've said before, that's the attitude of most Israelis that I've spoken to.

For someone who was raised fundie, I'm sure that talk of End Times and Rapture and so on would seem terrifying. Perhaps someone would see it as psychologically harmful even once they no longer believe.

If you've NEVER been raised with it, though, it means nothing. Most Israeli Jews don't read the New Testament. There are far more Jews and Muslims in Israel than Christians, and many of the Christians who do live there are Orthodox or Catholic. If they learn anything about Christianity, it's usually connected to history and geography. [Girl 1 recently had a day where they learned about Christianity at her school, so she has some pictures of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and can tell you about the Crusades, but she can't tell you anything about the theology beyond "they think that Jesus was the son of God and the messiah".] If a random person out there believes in something that sounds a bit crazy and thinks I'm going to hell - who cares? All I care about is how it affects my life. Are they trying to kill me? Are they trying to convert me? Are they trying to take away my kids or control how I raise them? Are they supporting people who want to kill me?

That said - the person mentioned in the blog is NOT an Israeli Jew. She's a Christian, who happens to have a father that was born Jewish and converted to Christianity. "Messianic Judaism" is a code word for Christian with Jewish trappings. Her father's online bio blurb says

Actual Jews do not automatically have Israeli citizenship at birth. They just have the right to apply for citizenship - it still takes an application and there are a bunch of things that go along with citizenship that not everyone wants. Not everyone who serves in the IDF is Jewish. In addition, many people who qualify to apply for citizenship under the Law of Return are not actually Jewish by religion - you just need one Jewish grandparent, or to be married to a Jew. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, for example, you had an awful lot of people discovering a Jewish grandparent and many of those that immigrated to Israel weren't technically Jewish.

I misread this woman's backstory. I thought she was a Christian married to a Jew. Not the daughter of a convert. Since she is ethnically Jewish, she can be considered part of the Diaspora though I do hesitate to say so because she's messy-anic.

I think the bolded highlights and interesting difference between American and Israeli Jews. American Jews do not go through the constant assaults that Israeli Jews experience, but we do interact directly with Christian Zionists in everyday life. We have to endure their condescension and their dehumanization of the Jewish people as props for their narrative. We also deal with their imposing politics which are often in direct conflict with ours. A lot of American Jews I know hated Bibi coming to Congress, hobnobbing with these assholes, and insulting our President. Israeli Jews, on the other hand, don't have to deal with these people directly, but do deal with constant assaults. It makes sense that they are more willing to take any support where they can find it, since these people are more separated from them. This doesn't have much to do with the post, I just think its an interesting aside.

[eri]

Torah-observant Jews do not, in fact, interpret the Torah literally in the same way that a fundamentalist Christian would. For example, there is no Jewish teaching that the meaning of the text should be readily apparent from a simple reading of the text itself (or a translation of it). Quite the opposite. There is an entire world of additional texts and rabbinic interpretations that even so-called "Torah observant" faux Jewish Christians do not have. The style of scholarship, the rules that are followed, and the interpretations are very different.

Then I was definitely wrong.

Too bad the Torah needs external canons and cherry picking to not be considered hate material.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Artdecades - exactly, different interests and POV. I'm terms of the Bibi visit the debate is Israel was simply whether he fucked up the relationship with the Americans and whether he had any impact on the Iran deal. The Christian Zionist concern didn't cross anyone's radar.

FWIW most of those that I was talking to were secular and they were a mix politically. They don't like religious extremists in politics but Christian Zionists aren't telling THEM what to do.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yeee -uck!

There is nothing worse than plain old ignorance.

'I stand with Israel' Has to be the most stupid phrase.

I would be absolutely disgusted if this was my religion and my culture and realised that the only reason people were saying/believing it, was for their own end. Patronising and totally ignorant. Did the OP ACTUALLY say that any support is better than none? I could be kind and leave it at naive.......

Israeli politics and issues are complicated enough without these idiots adding their stupidity.

I wonder if you ask why do you stand with Israel, if they actually have an intelligent thought :think:

The Duggars are entertaining :lol:

[Palimpsest]

Yeee -uck!

There is nothing worse than plain old ignorance.

'I stand with Israel' Has to be the most stupid phrase.

I would be absolutely disgusted if this was my religion and my culture and realised that the only reason people were saying/believing it, was for their own end. Patronising and totally ignorant. Did the OP ACTUALLY say that any support is better than none? I could be kind and leave it at naive.......

Israeli politics and issues are complicated enough without these idiots adding their stupidity.

I wonder if you ask why do you stand with Israel, if they actually have an intelligent thought :think:

The Duggars are entertaining :lol:

You may be confusing Ella with the OP and the OP's friend who wrote that drivel. Ella has now changed her "I stand with Israel" avatar to a quote from Exodus that is straining my eyes to read.

I think 22xxixy1JD is probably correct in thinking that some Israelis, including Ella apparently, don't have a problem with Christian Zionism. However, I know a few that do have a big problem with it. My guess is that the ones who do have a problem with it are much better informed about US politics and the known links that many Americans who spout Christian Zionism have with US hate groups.

Anyone knowingly accepting support from hate groups, whether the "support" is political or financial, gets on my shit list.

Re. antisemitism and philosemitism though, here is an interesting article from the Guardian to discuss.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... losemitism

It is from 2011 but still relevant, I think. For those who don't know, the Guardian is a daily national UK newspaper, but definitely leans a trifle to the left of centre.

[formergothardite]

Yeee -uck!

There is nothing worse than plain old ignorance.

'I stand with Israel' Has to be the most stupid phrase.

I would be absolutely disgusted if this was my religion and my culture and realised that the only reason people were saying/believing it, was for their own end. Patronising and totally ignorant. Did the OP ACTUALLY say that any support is better than none? I could be kind and leave it at naive.......

Israeli politics and issues are complicated enough without these idiots adding their stupidity.

I wonder if you ask why do you stand with Israel, if they actually have an intelligent thought :think:

The Duggars are entertaining :lol:

I really doubt it.

Has anyone seen the video where a Jewish guy goes to John Hagee's support Israel conference and interviews people about what they really believe about the end times prophecies? Once the people in charge realize what he is doing they rush up and ask him to stop asking those sorts of questions. He also asks Hagee about the part of one of his books where he basically blames Jewish people for all the bad things that have happened to them. Hagee flips out and promptly kicks him out of the conference.

[Palimpsest]

Has anyone seen the video where a Jewish guy goes to John Hagee's support Israel conference and interviews people about what they really believe about the end times prophecies? Once the people in charge realize what he is doing they rush up and ask him to stop asking those sorts of questions. He also asks Hagee about the part of one of his books where he basically blames Jewish people for all the bad things that have happened to them. Hagee flips out and promptly kicks him out of the conference.

Yes! :) I can't find a link to the video though.

[formergothardite]

Here it is:

[bBvideo 560,340:hlfq3upy]

[/bBvideo]

The people who think it is no big deal to join with these sorts of groups to get support need to realize that these groups only want "good" Jews who do and say exactly what the Christian Zionist want them to do and say. The second a Jewish person dares to have an opinion that doesn't agree with them they want them gone.

I'm guessing Amy Joy is done with this thread. :? I would love to hear more from her friend and her thoughts on this conversation.

[Palimpsest]

^^^^

Thanks! That video is a classic!

[OkToBeTakei]

You may be confusing Ella with the OP and the OP's friend who wrote that drivel. Ella has now changed her "I stand with Israel" avatar to a quote from Exodus that is straining my eyes to read.

I think 22xxixy1JD is probably correct in thinking that some Israelis, including Ella apparently, don't have a problem with Christian Zionism. However, I know a few that do have a big problem with it. My guess is that the ones who do have a problem with it are much better informed about US politics and the known links that many Americans who spout Christian Zionism have with US hate groups.

Anyone knowingly accepting support from hate groups, whether the "support" is political or financial, gets on my shit list.

Re. antisemitism and philosemitism though, here is an interesting article from the Guardian to discuss.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... losemitism

It is from 2011 but still relevant, I think. For those who don't know, the Guardian is a daily national UK newspaper, but definitely leans a trifle to the left of centre.

That is an interesting piece P. Thought provoking. Left of centre :lol: Must be why I like the Guardian. Well as much as one can like a newspaper. Maybe I should say I don't discount all it's opinions as I do some.

I wasn't sure who said the 'any support is good' thing. Just blends into all the stupidity.

Reminds me when younger of all the support some American catholics used to offer for the 'cause' in Northern Ireland. It's easy to identify with a 'cause' when the bombs and guns are on the other side of the world. Sigh :(

The type of ignorance that just blindly follows without intelligence or because of religious reasons invariably is dangerous.

[DGayle]

Support for Israel or not, I think it's pretty poor taste to use a baby to make a political statement.

[Palimpsest]

That is an interesting piece P. Thought provoking. Left of centre :lol: Must be why I like the Guardian. Well as much as one can like a newspaper. Maybe I should say I don't discount all it's opinions as I do some.

I wasn't sure who said the 'any support is good' thing. Just blends into all the stupidity.

Reminds me when younger of all the support some American catholics used to offer for the 'cause' in Northern Ireland. It's easy to identify with a 'cause' when the bombs and guns are on the other side of the world. Sigh :(

The type of ignorance that just blindly follows without intelligence or because of religious reasons invariably is dangerous.

:lol: The Guardian is definitely skewed to the left. Not quite far left enough for me though. I'm no JFC, but I find it too moderate much of the time.

Re. the uninformed Irish American support for the Provisional IRA in the '70s and '80s, yep. I remember walking into - and then out of really fast - the Black Rose Pub near Faneuil Hall (big Boston tourist spot) in 1982. A Provo collection box was openly displayed on the bar. WTF? Did they have any idea what they were funding? :pink-shock:

I agree, that article is thought provoking. An excerpt for those who don't have time to read the whole thing.

So, provided you do not seek the murder of every single Jew everywhere (and most people don't) there are multiple fig leaves for antisemitism today: for Muslims, pointing at cowed Jewish minorities in Muslim states; for leftists, pointing at their support for Jewish anti-Zionists; for the right, pointing at their support for Israel. We are seeing, in short, the emergence of philosemitic antisemitisms.

These are the source of some of the greatest dangers that Jews face today. The division of the world into good (or tolerated) Jews and bad Jews, tends to exacerbate pre-existing tensions within Jewish communities. Jewish accusations at anti-Zionist Jews that they provide an excuse for anti-Zionist antisemitism and at rightwing Jews that they provide an excuse for Christian antisemitic apocalypticism, deepen the conflicts within an already fraught and divided Jewish world. These controversies risk tearing the Jewish people apart. Of course, philosemitic antisemites care nothing for the Jewish people as a whole and one of their most malign effects is that they push Jews towards not caring either.

Non-Jews need to understand that avoiding antisemitism requires an acceptance of the diversity of the Jewish people – all of it, including the bits that disturb them. It is of course reasonable to criticise particular expressions of Judaism and forms of Jewish existence (such as militant settlers), but real care needs to be taken not to use antisemitic tropes against them and therefore hurting the Jewish people – all of it, including those sections they claim to support.

Jews need to refuse to play along with philosemitic antisemitism. Hatred directed at other Jews, even other Jews whose views we despise, hurts us all. Jews should serve as no one's fig leaf for antisemitism.

And key to all of this is refusing to define antisemitism with reference to the Holocaust. It is a kind of ironic victory for Hitler when comparisons to the Holocaust are used by those accused of antisemitism to absolve themselves.

[Ella]

"Ella has now changed her "I stand with Israel" avatar to a quote from Exodus that is straining my eyes to read."

I changed my avatar yet again, but the Exodus 4:22 quote is, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."

In case Jilly wants to put it on a t-shirt for her son to match with Mama's headband.

[formergothardite]

Ella, there is always someone who benefits from the fundie mindset that people should do something/support something/follow someone without question. You like the current support but that support is coming at the cost of a very dangerous way of thinking. It would be much better to encourage people educate themselves about the issue and that way you end up with educate support and not people who are supporting Israel because they have been told they have to and have dehumanized the people of Israel and view them as a means to and end. There is nothing wrong with standing with Israel, but there is everything wrong with people only choosing to do so because they have been told they have to and who view the people of Israel as a prop for their End of the World fantasy.

Amy Joy, I would be interested in your friend's thoughts on this issue. Does she see the dangers in wanting people to support something without first educating themselves and making a decision on their own? And I'm not talking about educating themselves by reading Bible verses, I'm talking about learning about what is going on in the region and trying to look at it objectively.

Ella, I'm quoting myself and wondering what you think about this?

[Ella]

I think you make good points. How dangerous is their thinking? I don't know. Of course, educated support would be better, but what we're seeing politically is a lot of anti-Zionism (2015 buzz word for anti-Semitism) at this time in history. So even uneducated support is kind of a breath of fresh air. I don't think their vision of the End of Days is correct so I'm not worried about it.

But this is why I stayed anonymous on Free Jinger till now. I'm here to enjoy my time on the net and not to argue politics, defend Judaism, and so on. But I guess anonymity isn't always an option when you gotta say what you gotta say.

I'd be willing to try to answer questions via email and see how that goes.

[formergothardite]

I don't expect you to give out personal info at all, but you have to realize that this mindset that goes into the support they are giving actually dehumanizing Jewish people in general, especially the ones in Israel, which should be a massive red flag. For all the gushing over how they "love the Jews!" what they really mean is that they see the people of Israel as objects that they can use and have no use for any Jewish person who refuses to be a pawn.

Support that comes at the cost of causing people to not view Jewish people as humans is not a breath of fresh air even if it might look like it is. The long term impact of this mindset is not going to be good. I wouldn't worry about End Times either, but I would worry about what is going to happen in 15-20 years when Jesus hasn't come back and the people who are giving support and don't view you as a human get pissed off that Israel hasn't done their part to bring the Second Coming. I think that it is very important that people in Israel think about the dark side of siding with Christian Zionist.

[Ella]

Yes, that's a consideration. I'm not siding with Christian Zionists. I really have nothing to do with them.