What an IDF solider thinks of the name Israel

[gustava]

Yeah, they might.

Many of those who believe in Armageddon also believe that the Jews killed Jesus. Ergo: Jews are evil.

[Ella]

What are the Duggar beliefs on all this, do we know? What does Quiverfull say? Would Derick have another take?

[anjulibai]

They all have the same take. Support Israel in so far as it leads to the Second Coming of Christ.

Ultimately, they want Israel destroyed, just not yet. The Third Temple has to be built first. They want instability in the region because it will ultimately lead to Armageddon. They see everything that is happening in the Middle East as fulfillment of Revelation.

For them, Jews were chosen to bring about Christ, both the first time and the second. If Jews don't accept Christ, they will be destroyed during Armageddon and go to hell. Christians are the new chosen people, the new Jews and the rightful inheritors of Eretz Yisrael - that's where so much of that Faux Jew stuff comes from.

Seriously, Jews are only worth it to them to bring about their own twisted view of the future. They don't actually care about Jews as a people with rights in and of themselves.

[Arrowoftruth]

They all have the same take. Support Israel in so far as it leads to the Second Coming of Christ.

Ultimately, they want Israel destroyed, just not yet. The Third Temple has to be built first. They want instability in the region because it will ultimately lead to Armageddon. They see everything that is happening in the Middle East as fulfillment of Revelation.

For them, Jews were chosen to bring about Christ, both the first time and the second. If Jews don't accept Christ, they will be destroyed during Armageddon and go to hell. Christians are the new chosen people, the new Jews and the rightful inheritors of Eretz Yisrael - that's where so much of that Faux Jew stuff comes from.

Seriously, Jews are only worth it to them to bring about their own twisted view of the future. They don't actually care about Jews as a people with rights in and of themselves.

What? wow! Is there like a website I can read up about this in laymans terms? I'm trying to wrap my mind around this and how a religion, where to me, being a good person and believing in Holy Trinity makes you eligible for heaven, uses people for their own agenda think they'll be accepted into heaven.

[eri]

Yes. You know, it took baby Israel Dillard to out myself in this group. I am a Torah observant Jew and I live in Israel. I don't know what Jill and Derick's vision is for the world's future. The important thing is their support now, that they get it, as the blog linked above explains.

So why are you here?

[grandmadugger]

They all have the same take. Support Israel in so far as it leads to the Second Coming of Christ.

Ultimately, they want Israel destroyed, just not yet. The Third Temple has to be built first. They want instability in the region because it will ultimately lead to Armageddon. They see everything that is happening in the Middle East as fulfillment of Revelation.

For them, Jews were chosen to bring about Christ, both the first time and the second. If Jews don't accept Christ, they will be destroyed during Armageddon and go to hell. Christians are the new chosen people, the new Jews and the rightful inheritors of Eretz Yisrael - that's where so much of that Faux Jew stuff comes from.

Seriously, Jews are only worth it to them to bring about their own twisted view of the future. They don't actually care about Jews as a people with rights in and of themselves.

Can you provide references to this? I've never seen anything like this in all my studying. I've seen the new temple references but have never seen anyone or anything about Jews going to hell. Most still believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and that Christians have been adopted into that not replaced them. Many also believe that the original 12 tribes will be saved from Armageddon, that they will be the first to be "raptured"

[shedemei]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

2xx1xy1jd and I discussed this in another thread. I'll see if I can find it.

[grandmadugger]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

2xx1xy1jd and I discussed this in another thread. I'll see if I can find it.

Anything other than a wiki page with the following warning:

This article or section possibly contains previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources. (August 2009)

This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the Wikipedia editor's particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (October 2013)

There is a whole section without any citations. I want something real and published to support the person above who said Christians want the Jews to go to hell.

[fabkiwi06]

It's a nice warm fuzzy thought to have Jill & Derek be open-minded enough to name their child Israel as a notion to support the Israeli state. The two problems I have with it are

1. Jill & Derek would have to be open-minded.

2. Jill & Derek would have to have thoughts.

I suspect the name has less to do with their support of Israel and more to do with the fact it's "Jesus-y" and "provocative" and "cultured" and actually naming their child Jesus would cause to many problems.

[anjulibai]

Anything other than a wiki page with the following warning:

This article or section possibly contains previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources. (August 2009)

This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the Wikipedia editor's particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (October 2013)

There is a whole section without any citations. I want something real and published to support the person above who said Christians want the Jews to go to hell.

I didn't say Christians. I was referring specifically to this particular brand of Christianity.

You can do your own research as I have done over the years; I've been reading about these types of groups for the last decade. Salon, Time magazine, New York Times, Washington Post, and all sorts of various news magazines have published articles on this stuff over the years. They (the articles) were more common at the height of the popularity of the Left Behind series.

You can do the research if you don't believe me, but I'm obviously not the only with experience in this.

[formergothardite]

Can you provide references to this? I've never seen anything like this in all my studying. I've seen the new temple references but have never seen anyone or anything about Jews going to hell. Most still believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and that Christians have been adopted into that not replaced them. Many also believe that the original 12 tribes will be saved from Armageddon, that they will be the first to be "raptured"

I can't provide links but this is what I was raised to believe. We were taught that we should always side with Israel no matter what(and that attitude causes all sorts of problems on its own) because they are God's chosen people AND because the prophecy that Israel will rebuild the temple must be fulfilled before Jesus will return. It was never specifically said that we wanted Jewish people to go to hell(most have the common sense to not say it outright), but it was implied. Because if we converted most of the Jews to being Christian they wouldn't go rebuild the temple, so we wanted most of them to stay Jewish even though that meant they would burn in hell forever.

In all my IFB/Gothard/SB days I've never heard anyone say that the Jews will be saved because they are Jewish. The attitude is they must convert or go to hell.

There was an article I read years ago about the dark side of some Christians rabid support of Israel and it really explained it well, but I can't find it now.

ETA: I think it was also taught that like 144,000 Jews will be saved and suffer through the tribulation but the rest are going to be tortured for eternity for rejecting Jesus.

[Rachel333]

I think I was taught that a lot of Jewish people alive after the rapture will go to Heaven, but that's because they will have accepted Jesus. If Jewish people die before they accept Jesus then they will be going to Hell.

No one would say they want Jews to go to Hell, though. Christians still believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and I've only heard people hope that Jews will be going to Heaven.

I wouldn't say they want there to be conflict in Israel since we were constantly told to pray for the peace of Israel, but it's one of those things that has to happen for prophecies to be fulfilled. It's kind of like Judas, I guess; no one would say that betraying Jesus was a good thing, but it had to happen for God's plan to be carried out. (Which is why I always felt that it wasn't fair Judas had such a terrible reputation, but that's another issue. :lol: )

They absolutely support Israel because they believe it is necessary for the Armageddon. It's popular for Christians to go to Megiddo in Israel because they literally believe that is where the Armageddon will physically take place.

[formergothardite]

Here is a really informative article from a former IDF solider. She believes they've done an amazing thing by chosing the name Israel David.

blog.amyjoyharrison.com/2015/04/why-duggar-named-her-baby-israel.html

My problem with just going with "I'm siding with Israel because God" is that it means that you can never have a real, honest conversation about what is going on in that region because anything short of "Israel is right, end of story" is shut down. Israel is made up of humans. That means that they aren't perfect and are going to have moments when they fuck up and need to be criticized just like every other country in the world. Growing up there were lots of people I knew who would flip out if anyone criticized anything America did. It didn't matter if America was actually wrong, the attitude was that it was practically sinful to say that America wasn't perfect. This led to people wanting to give America a pass on doing bad things instead of standing up against it. I don't believe that any country should be immune from criticism. The attitude I got from your article, that you think it is wrong for Christians to ever not agree with Israel and criticize the country and you are dismayed that younger Christians are not adopting the attitude that they have to always stand with Israel.

ETA: This isn't an actual criticism of Israel, I admit that I don't know enough about Israeli politics to criticize. It is a criticism of Amy's attitude that one country should be immune from all criticism and that Christians should always side with a country no matter what.

[nelliebelle1197]

I can't provide links but this is what I was raised to believe. We were taught that we should always side with Israel no matter what(and that attitude causes all sorts of problems on its own) because they are God's chosen people AND because the prophecy that Israel will rebuild the temple must be fulfilled before Jesus will return. It was never specifically said that we wanted Jewish people to go to hell(most have the common sense to not say it outright), but it was implied. Because if we converted most of the Jews to being Christian they wouldn't go rebuild the temple, so we wanted most of them to stay Jewish even though that meant they would burn in hell forever.

In all my IFB/Gothard/SB days I've never heard anyone say that the Jews will be saved because they are Jewish. The attitude is they must convert or go to hell.

There was an article I read years ago about the dark side of some Christians rabid support of Israel and it really explained it well, but I can't find it now.

ETA: I think it was also taught that like 144,000 Jews will be saved and suffer through the tribulation but the rest are going to be tortured for eternity for rejecting Jesus.

Yep, I was taught about the 144,000 Jews who survive as well.

[PennySycamore]

I can't provide links but this is what I was raised to believe. We were taught that we should always side with Israel no matter what(and that attitude causes all sorts of problems on its own) because they are God's chosen people AND because the prophecy that Israel will rebuild the temple must be fulfilled before Jesus will return. It was never specifically said that we wanted Jewish people to go to hell(most have the common sense to not say it outright), but it was implied. Because if we converted most of the Jews to being Christian they wouldn't go rebuild the temple, so we wanted most of them to stay Jewish even though that meant they would burn in hell forever.

In all my IFB/Gothard/SB days I've never heard anyone say that the Jews will be saved because they are Jewish. The attitude is they must convert or go to hell.

There was an article I read years ago about the dark side of some Christians rabid support of Israel and it really explained it well, but I can't find it now.

ETA: I think it was also taught that like 144,000 Jews will be saved and suffer through the tribulation but the rest are going to be tortured for eternity for rejecting Jesus.

There was an article in Harper's a few years ago about this exact thing. I may still have this copy somewhere.

[morri]

Sorry but those religions are so effed up.

[GotCaughtDancing]

Sorry but those religions are so effed up.

Yes they can be.

[amyjoyharrison]

ETA: This isn't an actual criticism of Israel, I admit that I don't know enough about Israeli politics to criticize. It is a criticism of Amy's attitude that one country should be immune from all criticism and that Christians should always side with a country no matter what.

But actually Michelle's attitude. I personally am still figuring it all out for myself.

[formergothardite]

But actually Michelle's attitude. I personally am still figuring it all out for myself.

Okay. It was posted on your blog and the way you talked about her wisdom gave the impression you agreed with her. Your friend's answer to you is less of research and love and more of the classic fundie mindset that followers must side with (fill in the blank whatever group is being discussed) because God. Research and love would not be bemoaning younger Christians not automatically choosing to side with Israel. Research and love would be encouraging all people to look into the situation themselves and decide who they want to stand with or if they even want to take a stand on one side. The mindset your friend is promoting is a mindset keeps from people from thinking critically about the situation which is what fundie beliefs typically do.

That is what I found so profound about the baby announcement. Not only did they choose to name their baby Israel, but also that Derick was wearing an IDF t-shirt in their first family photo. Upon seeing this all I could think was, these people are taking a stand, they are saying we support and believe in the prophetic promises and fulfilment that this slight but momentous country represents

I found this especially disturbing from your friend. She is saying that she is super happy that they are taking a stand to support Israel, not because they researched the subject, became well informed about what is going in that area and came to a conclusion that Israel is who they agree with. No, she is super happy that they are taking a stand for Israel because they believe in the Christian end of the world prophecies that involve Israel. Jill and Derick doing research on their own would have been profound. There is nothing profound about mindlessly supporting something because your religion said you have to support it and it would be wrong to do otherwise.

[Palimpsest]

What are the Duggar beliefs on all this, do we know? What does Quiverfull say? Would Derick have another take?

Are you the person who said that if Derrick and Jill visit Israel you'd love to have them to stay?

Now I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that visit! :lol:

You are very new here, apparently a fan of the show, and unfamiliar with Gothardism and Quiverfull. Just so you know, this is not a Duggar fan site and many people here are critical of the Duggars and their beliefs. You'll learn things here that will probably blow your mind if you keep reading.

If you are a new Duggar fan: the Duggars do present a very pretty picture of a nice family -- and a lot of people are fooled by that at the beginning. So don't feel too bad for being taken in by their act. It's an effective one.

[Palimpsest]

I didn't say Christians. I was referring specifically to this particular brand of Christianity.

You can do your own research as I have done over the years; I've been reading about these types of groups for the last decade. Salon, Time magazine, New York Times, Washington Post, and all sorts of various news magazines have published articles on this stuff over the years. They (the articles) were more common at the height of the popularity of the Left Behind series.

You can do the research if you don't believe me, but I'm obviously not the only with experience in this.

I'd give a few links but a) I'd probably be accused of posting biased articles, I do have very strong opinions on this topic, and b) I agree with Anjulibai that people should do their own research.

Here's a helpful hint though, GrandmaDugger. Google "Christian Zionism in US politics" and see what comes up. :)

[Ella]

So why are you here?[/quote]

Because I want to be.

Because the Duggars are... entertaining. :banana-dreads:

I think that's why a lot of us are here.

Glad we're good with that now.

[formergothardite]

If people were actually doing research and deciding to stand with Israel it would be one thing, but that isn't what is happening. Just this morning someone who I would consider a mainstream Christian posted on FB that he stand with Israel and that America needs to vote in politicians who will only stand with Israel. I sent him a message and asked about his post and how he had come to this decision. Ends up his church has been doing a series on biblical prophecies and how Christians must always stand on the side of Israel. He is as ignorant about what is going on in the region as I am, yet the situation is motivating how he votes. And that is the big problem with things like Amy Joy's blog post(I realize her friend wrote it, but it is her blog), it encourages people to make an uninformed decision and it makes them feel like if they try to look at the situation objectively they are sinning.

[nolongerIFBx]

Can you provide references to this? I've never seen anything like this in all my studying. I've seen the new temple references but have never seen anyone or anything about Jews going to hell. Most still believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and that Christians have been adopted into that not replaced them. Many also believe that the original 12 tribes will be saved from Armageddon, that they will be the first to be "raptured"

Raised IFBx and I'm confused. I'm pretty sure I was taught that God will miraculously protect Israel not allow it to be destroyed. Even heard it preached that when Romans 11:26 says, "And so all Israel will be saved" it meant that there would be no Jews who do not ultimately accept Jesus as the Messiah.

That said, Revelations is a confusing book and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Some people don't even think it is prophetic but has already happened.

[formergothardite]

I had never heard that all Jews were going to be saved. I googled and found that there are a lot of people who believe that way, a lot of people who don't and a lot of fighting over who really understands the End Times prophecies the best. :lol:

I remember sitting through Prophecy sermons in the 80's and 90's and back then people were like 100% sure that all the signs pointed to Jesus returning in the next couple of years. My opinion of the prophecies is that people read them and make them say whatever is most convenient at the time.