Why I Think End Time Beliefs Hurt America

[debrand]

Where I live, it isn't uncommon to hear people talk about the 'end times'. More liberal Christians and nonChristians probably shrug this off as harmless religious beliefs that have no bearing on their own lives.

There are many evangelical Christians who distrust government because they are terrified that they might accidentally support the antiChrist. The antiChrist is supposed to be a charming individual who will come to power after helping the world obtain peace. He is supposed to seem like the perfect leader.

Because of this belief I know many people who are only evangelical and not fundie who would not vote for any leader that offered more government solutions to their problems. It doesn't matter that a canidate hurts our country economically. What matters is that socialism-which might lead to the antiChrist-doesn't take hold.

How much do any of you know about current evangelical beliefs about the apocalypse? Do you think that beliefs about the end times are influencing how people pick a canidate? I think that a lot of Americans are unaware of how prevalent such beliefs are or how they influence our policy. I wonder if this isn't the reason that so many of the working poor and blue collar Americans are willing to vote against their own interests?

One more thing, I've only heard a few sermons about the end of the world but I've had a LOT of Christian friends talk to me on the subject. Even if it isn't always taught officially at a church, that doesn't mean that members of the congregation aren't afraid of the tribulation.

Note: I am at a different computer so my spelling myght bee ooff :D

[maybeizfundie]

I think American evangelicals can be pretty nutty about end-times stuff.

And I am an American and an evangelical. :D One more thing that makes it hard for me to "fit in".

I think socialism can be problematic (so can capitalism). I disagree with liberal political views in many ways. But it's pragmatic, not based on fear of the anti-Christ or "the end". My politics aren't based on my eschatology. I have preferences about the kind of society I'd like to live in, and I vote that way since I have the right and ability to do so.

I also don't buy the "Left Behind" vision of "The End". Stupid, stupid books and I can't believe how many people read them as Gospel truth. augh.

This also bleeds into the nationalism issue, and America as some key player in Revelation (uh, what????) American flags all over the church, etc, etc. Gets under my skin. It's not all about us.

[debrand]

I

This also bleeds into the nationalism issue, and America as some key player in Revelation (uh, what????) American flags all over the church, etc, etc. Gets under my skin. It's not all about us.

I have family members in the military, my husband retired from the Air Force and my dad died in Vietnam. So, I'm not antiAmerican by a long shot. But the combination of patriotism and religious belief bothers me.

[Austin]

Where I live, it isn't uncommon to hear people talk about the 'end times'. More liberal Christians and nonChristians probably shrug this off as harmless religious beliefs that have no bearing on their own lives.

There are many evangelical Christians who distrust government because they are terrified that they might accidentally support the antiChrist. The antiChrist is supposed to be a charming individual who will come to power after helping the world obtain peace. He is supposed to seem like the perfect leader.

Because of this belief I know many people who are only evangelical and not fundie who would not vote for any leader that offered more government solutions to their problems. It doesn't matter that a canidate hurts our country economically. What matters is that socialism-which might lead to the antiChrist-doesn't take hold.

How much do any of you know about current evangelical beliefs about the apocalypse? Do you think that beliefs about the end times are influencing how people pick a canidate? I think that a lot of Americans are unaware of how prevalent such beliefs are or how they influence our policy. I wonder if this isn't the reason that so many of the working poor and blue collar Americans are willing to vote against their own interests?

One more thing, I've only heard a few sermons about the end of the world but I've had a LOT of Christian friends talk to me on the subject. Even if it isn't always taught officially at a church, that doesn't mean that members of the congregation aren't afraid of the tribulation.

Note: I am at a different computer so my spelling myght bee ooff :D

I used to know the ins and outs of this stuff pretty well. I think a lot of what you said is spot-on, and I would also add that many fervent pre-trib/rapture/end times people believe there are certain things that must be accomplished - and they want to vote in leaders who will accomplish those things - before Christ "can" return. The USA must continue to support Israel and ties between our two countries must remain strong because when it all goes down, Israel will be at the center of it. Also, many Jews need to accept Jesus as their messiah before it can all happen. I know of one couple, in particular, who travels to Israel several times a year with a larger group to proselytize Jews so they can make God hurry up, or whatever. We think of this as John Hagee kind of stuff, and it is, but it has been percolating a lot longer than most people have been aware of him.

Other common eschatologies have different goals, I think. Post-trib people think that Christians will have to stay on earth during the tribulation period right along with everyone else. One problem with the post-trib thing is that it's harder to tell when we're in the "end times", and since there's no disappearance (rapture) of a billion or more people to kick things off,so it's hard to tell where the starting line is. I think these people tend to worry a lot about who is the anti-Christ, because he could appear any time. Is it Obama? Is it the pope? Could be anybody.

One thing is that a lot of these people don't see any reason to care all that much about the environment. After all, Jesus will perfect it all when he sets up his 1,000 year reign, so no need to worry over global warming, pollution, drinking water, or anything to do with nature or endangered species.

So many eschatologies. . . so little time.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am so glad to see folks of varied religious stripes agree on this topic. If I were religious, I would be convinced that this extreme evangelical political marriage was created by satan.

By calling every thought that is not just like theirs as satanic, they are inciting violence and destruction. Violence and destruction, intolerance, paranoia and fear are the products of evil. The religious may call that evil Satan, but it is evil by any name.

Socialism is not inherently evil. Capitalism is not inherently evil. We need a combiation of both in order for society to run and be strong. There are times that call for movement slightly to one side or the other and that is the issue about which we should be arguing. Neither left leaners not right leaners are inherently evil or even wrong. A strong America is a recipie with many ingredients. The call to leave some ingredients out is a call to destroy us from within.

I really have to wonder, if there were a satan, whether the Tea Party strategy wouldn't be just his cup of tea!

[Rosa]

The thing is, the eschatology is only one little part of it - I don't think it's a determining part. Like, a guy in my family voted for McCain because he thought Obama was the antiChrist. Well, Obama's OBVIOUSLY not the antichrist because he isn't bringing peace and (if you believe my relative) he isn't charming. But he's still probably the Antichrist just because my relative doesn't like him.

I don't know how to say that so it makes sense. But it seems like the political judgement comes first (partly from the church) and then the religious justification comes after.

[liltwinstar]

I think end-times theology hurts environmental issues, too. Because why bother picking a candidate who believes in, say, renewable energy or solar power or whatever, because Jesus will just come back before fossil fuel or water runs out. Also, oil wars figure into the end times somehow.

People have been thinking that the world is going to end for millennia. The early Christians thought so, back in the 14th century they thought it was going to happen, folks during the Russian Revolution thought it was going to happen, etc etc. All that prophecy stuff can really mess people up.

[Joykins]

Evangelical eschatology has been an interest of mine since I was obsessed with/scared of it as a kid.

There are many evangelical Christians who distrust government because they are terrified that they might accidentally support the antiChrist. The antiChrist is supposed to be a charming individual who will come to power after helping the world obtain peace. He is supposed to seem like the perfect leader.

...and what a relief it was to know that the Bible says no such thing. That is, the passage they base this on only says the beast gets people to worship him, which the Roman Emperors did by force, and the passage is more consistent with force as opposed to charm. I continually point this out to evangelicals. Some of them think I have a point, that is, if they put down their Hal Lindsay/Tim LaHaye book and actually look at the Bible. Read the passage below.

Because of this belief I know many people who are only evangelical and not fundie who would not vote for any leader that offered more government solutions to their problems. It doesn't matter that a canidate hurts our country economically. What matters is that socialism-which might lead to the antiChrist-doesn't take hold.

Actually there is even more skepticism of international organizations (like the UN) and peacemaking efforts because of this belief, than distrust in government in general. There is of course a feeling that one shouldn't give government too much power because it will eventually be used against one.

Here is, by the way, the passage used to support these beliefs:

Rev. 13

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,

into captivity they will go.

If anyone is to be killed with the sword,

with the sword they will be killed.â€

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

[Austin]

Slightly O/T, but I'm listening to Fresh Air on NPR right now, and Terri Gross is interviewing Tom Perrotta about his new novel called The Leftovers in which he takes an interesting look at the rapture narrative. It sounds good. . .

[browngrl]

I do not have any end times believers in my direct circle. So I might be way off. However, after spending a lot (way too much some would say) time reading fundamentalist blogs/articles I have become increasingly concerned about this topic. I think that people who believe the apocalypse is imminent may be dangerous for a couple of reasons - the most important are:

1. Not only do they not want to do something to help save the environment/endangered species - they actively oppose people who do want to help fix problems we as a species have contributed to. I assume that they think "why bother wasting time/resources on saving the Earth - the "good" people are going to be raptured anyway".

2. I fear that some bat shit insane person will decide they want to precipitate the apocalypse. It would not be so very difficult. One soldier who acts in a thoughtless manner could precipitate an incident that escalates. What if someone breaks into stores of the small pox virus? What if an elected leader tries this?

3. It gives people an excuse to treat the less fortunate badly - after all why should they care for someone that God has scheduled for imminent removal to Hell.

4. It can be an excuse not to learn and explore - what would be the point if God is just going to rapture the deserving (deserving because they are Godly not because they are intelligent or creative or strong etc) and send the rest of us directly to Hell?

Perhaps FJ'ers who believe in the end times can enlighten me. I would be more than happy to find out that my concerns are baseless.

[GeoBQn]

I wonder what kind of financial impact it would have. I watched a documentary on Netflix called Waiting for Armageddon, about evangelical Christians who think these are the "end times." One woman on their said that there are times she feels sad, because she knows her kids won't ever get married, or graduate high school. This begs the question, what happens when their kids graduate high school and they want to go to college? Why bother to save money for college if you think your children are never going to go? For that matter, why save money for a rainy day that will never happen?

[AnnoDomini]

They hurt me, massively. I don't remember a time before my parents thought we were living in the end times, before my parents used the prhase 'if the Lord tarries' when speaking of the future. And I spent years and years terrified of the end, and going 'well I'm going to be gone in a few years, so what's the point of doing X? Would i really want to spend my last days doing X when I could be doing Y?' I did not turn out a healthy person in ways. I'm in my twenties and still living at home, sharing a bedroom, barely any college or job experience, have depression and don't see a way out short of running away and being homeless.

Yeah. End time beliefs damage America, also because they damage America's people.

[doggie]

Makes me wonder if people back in Biblical times knew the age of the earth and man would have had the end times idea's?

[MamaJunebug]

Debrand, many thx for broaching the topic!

ITA w the areligious FJer who says Satan/evil is behind end times obsessions. And I'm gratified to read Joykins' words tho' I confess I have only skimmed.

Again I have to thank God for being raised Lutheran. Like Joykins wrote , Lutherans find huge problems with basing theology on highly symbolic and unliteral writing. A few years ago the Luth Church Missouri Synod published a series of papers exPlaining very readably (MHO) several beliefs and doctrines.

This is the one on end times/millennialism.

http://lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1095

In very brief/practical terms, I've found endtimes arguments/scare stories to be abominable bcz they take the focus off the Good News and put it, instead, in men and politics and of course, control of people's behavior through fear.

[Trynn]

They hurt me, massively. I don't remember a time before my parents thought we were living in the end times, before my parents used the prhase 'if the Lord tarries' when speaking of the future. And I spent years and years terrified of the end, and going 'well I'm going to be gone in a few years, so what's the point of doing X? Would i really want to spend my last days doing X when I could be doing Y?' I did not turn out a healthy person in ways. I'm in my twenties and still living at home, sharing a bedroom, barely any college or job experience, have depression and don't see a way out short of running away and being homeless.

Yeah. End time beliefs damage America, also because they damage America's people.

This is very similar to what happened to me. When I was a child, I thought that either Jesus would come, or I'd kill myself. It all intensified in High School when we got a new pope.

Because of this view, I never made plans for my future. And now I'm in my early 20s and I still don't know what to do with my life. I'm just now starting college, and all I know is that I want to learn spanish . (Not just for witnessing purposes, but because I think it's useful. Actually, in response to the other thread, that's probably what the Duggar girls and I would talk about.)

But I have no idea what I want to DO with spanish, or even if I want to.

I think end times views hurt the environment, but they can also hurt people. I have had people who have been told that they shouldn't go to college because Jesus is going to come and we need to be witnessing as much as possible. One pastor spoke out against that and said, "so? If Jesus does come, that just means I don't have to pay off my student loans!"

I hope Jesus comes before I graduate... :dance:

[InkyGirl]

As a kid I used to have nightmares about 'The End'. Sky on fire, everyone gone, all alone - yeah. Scary stuff for an 8 year old. I used to constantly worry that I had missed the rapture. I would sometimes get up at night and check my parents bed just to make sure they were still there.

Damages people is right!

edit: riffle

[AnnoDomini]

Inkygirl and Tryn, my heart goes out to you. Yeah, if parents tell their kids actively or passively that they have no future, the kids start to believe it, deep down. And we don't know what to do.

Tryn, I hope you figure out what you want to do with your life.

Inkygirl, I had nightmares too. Used to have exciting/scary dreams about giant waves that had nothing to do with the end times. Past couple years they have entirely been replaced by utter nightmares about Judgment Day. Freaky things happening that could happen for no other reason. The one I remember the most was standing in a wide field, looking up at the blue sky and seeing it split open silently, realizing this was the end of the world and I wasn't ready.

And my parents didn't teach 'the rapture' where believers would be raptured and the unbelievers left. Oh no. My parents taught Judgement Day. Believers go to heaven, unbelievers go to Hell. Forever.

[slh12280]

Mamajunebug, that was very informative. Funny, I was just thinking about the end times stuff today. The church I grew up in was into the "Left Behind" books but not obsessively so. We were always encouraged to prepare for our futures, although I did find some of that stuff scary. Now, I am not fully sure about the details of the end times as I have no studied it in depth. I just trust God. For the record, I still vote and don't believe every other person is the anti-Christ. I do fall into thinking about the end of the world sometimes though.

[Joykins]

I just wish I fully realized earlier that I regarded the "End Times" books etc. as science fiction/horror and WHY (yes, why would I be filled with terror at Jesus coming back? Could it be I liked my life on this world and wanted to live it here rather than either get snatched away from it when I hadn't had a chance for a grown up life yet, or suffer in horrible world-destroying judgments? Which seems a totally healthy response to the way that stuff was portrayed, yet you were supposed to look forward to it).

[jenny_islander]

Fred Clark, the Slacktivist, has been digging into those End Times doorstops the Left Behind series once a week for years. His LB posts are archived here: http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist

He always finds something new to say. The wrongness in these books is fractal. Along the way he examines the weird libertarian-xenophobic-homegrownracist-knownothing-fundamentalist-rightwingRepublican chimera that lurches through the American cultural landscape and the wreckage in its wake.

[Dinorah]

Most of what I know about the End of Times movement comes from the Slacktivist blog and I'm truly baffled people in the 21st century would swallow this sort of nonsense that's straight out of the Dark Ages.

[debrand]

Most of what I know about the End of Times movement comes from the Slacktivist blog and I'm truly baffled people in the 21st century would swallow this sort of nonsense that's straight out of the Dark Ages.

I've had to endure listening to long talks from people who are obsessed with the 'end times' One of my most beloved relatives LOVES to tell me about the end of the end of the world.

A disturbing aspect is how happy some people get when describing the coming suffering of nonChristians. :shock: