? Fundie family loses kids

[AuntCloud]

My own heart defect was discovered by ultrasound. Without this diagnosis, and my mother's subsequent arrangements to move to a better-equipped hospital in a larger city, I would have died within days. There was no indication that there was a problem until the ultrasound picked it up. I'm sorry, but if you intend to bring a child into the world, and you don't have even the most basic of tests done to check for its safety, you ARE neglectful - and damned lucky if nothing turns out to be wrong!

Mama Mia - precise dating is not "optional", as in - not just used to set the date of the baby shower and to tell Grandma when to come from out of town. I apologize in advance if I sound snippy, as premature births and preemies are my personal hot button.

When I was admitted with severe preeclampsia at 24-25 weeks in both pregnancies, treatment options were very different if I was 21, 23 or 25 weeks. My babies were straddling viability and I had to make some tough decisions about managing my pregnancy while being incredibly sick myself with life-threatening blood pressure and kidneys that were spilling protein like a PowerBar factory.

For my friends with PROM or premature labour, knowing the exact week meant the difference between letting go and sadly let nature take its course, or taking extreme measures to save the pregnancy. After the baby is born, dating is crucial in determining if the baby's weight is appropriate. 4 lbs is great if your baby was born at 32 weeks, is considered small for gestational age at full-term, and is giant for a 26-weeker. My pregnancies were very well-dated, so my 30-weeker was considered severely growth-restricted at 1 lb 14 oz., and my 26-weeker was on the low side of still normal at 1 lb 10 oz.

Also, as DGayle mentioned, some conditions are simply not compatible with home birth, no matter how crunchy you are. When Cloudlet #2 was born, her next-door neighbour in NICU was a cute little girl who was born with gastroschisis - basically, no abdominal wall and internal organs hanging out there. Can you imagine birthing a baby with this condition at home, in the tub, with a doula? With Cloudlet #1 there was a boy with congenital diaphragmatic hernia - he was full-term but his lungs were undeveloped as the internal organs pushed through the hernia, compressing the lungs. He was intubated about 30 seconds after birth, another skill-set that most doulas don't employ.

Even with non-life-threatening conditions such as cleft lip/palate, missing limbs or Down syndrome, it is in the best interest of the baby to be born to parents who are prepared, have gone through the initial grief of losing the idea of a perfect baby, and are ready to welcome theirchild and be their advocate, rather than spend the first few days, weeks or month processing their shock and grief instead of bonding. In Israel, some groups are hyper-fanatic about prenatal diagnosis (which is an entirely different kettle of fish and I have many issues with that as well) and other groups have minimal care, if at all. Every year newborns are abandoned when their parents are so shocked at the discovery of a serious but treatable birth defect they up and leave. Some are adopted by loving families who usually have quite a few kids themselves, others are not. One of the participants in a pregnancy board I was reading discovered her much-expected first born girl had Down syndrome. She was panicking, her husband was panicking, her in-laws were trying to convince her to just leave the baby at the hospital and tell everyone that she died at birth. It was heart-wrenching, but after a few weeks of confusion she was able to tell her MIL to stuff it, decided she will protect her baby no matter what, and entered motherhood as a confident woman. Can you imagine how this would have gone down if the baby's condition wasn't discovered until birth?

And simply because I just can't let it go - I'm staunchly pro-choice, and even more strongly I'm pro educated choice. Knowledge is power. Whether a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy or continue it, she should have the maximum knowledge to make educated choices.

Off my soapbox on dating pregnancies, thank you for reading my novel, and again my apologies if my tone was nasty.

[Mama Mia]

I am not an ultrasound technician, so I am not going to debate the finer points of ultrasound technology. I know it is standard operating procedure to have between 1 and 3 ultrasounds as part of basic, pre-natal care. I'm in my thirties - every single pregnant woman in my age range that I've known has had between one and 3 (more often three these days). This includes homebirthers, birthing center-ers (?), and regular ol' hospital birthers. I don't mean women should be strapped down and given forcible ultrasound, but, to me, it IS madness not to take advantage of extremely low-risk, widely-available technology to know if your baby is a twin. Or has a heartbeat. or a functioning brain (regardless of whether anyone would choose to abort). Or will likely need immediate, emergency medical care to save its life. Yes, to me that is terrible decision-making. If there's another way to get the same information, with the same low risk (I don't think there is, but I'm not a doctor), then by all means, choose that.

I wasn't arguing that they may not very well be useful, I was just asking why. I had my kids in the 80s to early 90 s and , as I said up-thread, only had one with the youngest for dating purposes, and a couple with a baby I lost to determine if it was still alive. In other words they weren't routine at that time. And, at least with the Doctors /Midwives I had were only done if there was a suspected problem -- or starting around when my youngest were born people were choosing to get them to determine the sex of the baby. But they just weren't routine or required for normal pregnancy. So I was curious. That's it. I was surprised that they had gone from something occasionally used to " if you don't have one you're nuts " in such a relatively short time frame and was wondering what the reason was. Again, it was just curiosity.

I looked up the different infant mortality rates and there was a decrease of about 2 neonatal deaths per thousand in the U.S. between the mid 80s and 2000--presumably part of that would be due to ultrasounds, partly to other factors like advances in survival rates for preemies and, I'm sure, other factors.

Eta: after reading other responses- I really don't get why people are getting so irate about a simple question. It isn't a technology that was even available ( in most cases) 30 years ago. I'm 50 and my last pregnancy was almost 25 years ago. My daughters have all had ultrasounds because that's what people do now. (Although one daughter had multiple ultrasounds that were indicating Growth restriction -- and the baby was 7lbs at birth -- but she had the crappiest Doctor on the planet) I'm glad it saved some of your lives/your children's lives. Again, not against ultrasounds -- mostly I wondered if it was one big dramatic life-saving thing that ultrasounds detected --similar to the " back to sleep" campaign that virtually got rid of SIDs.

As far as the case in general, there very well may be serious issues with the family. Or not. Truthfully I'm surprised that people tend to be willing to acknowledge that police sometimes abuse their power, let their biases take over and screw up ........but don't acknowledge that the exact same situation can occur with CPS. It doesn't mean that all CPS workers are bad or power hungry or corrupt any more than it means all police officers are bad or power hungry or corrupt. Conversely -- why do the same people who think cops can do no wrong tend to be the ones who think CPS is out to undermine parents and steal people's kids? :?

[Howl]

Under questioning from Assistant Attorney General Rob Olson, she summarized the police reports involving the couple and the concerns that those contacts with law enforcement indicated a pattern of domestic problems and mental health issues in the home. She also said that in the course of working with the couple, social workers worried that they weren’t following recommended medical care for their children — specifically not treating Levi’s eczema, which had become infected, with a steroid cream as recommended by medical providers — and that the twins were underweight to the extent that they were below 1 percentile for their age.

I'm wondering if the mother was trying to breastfeed all three kids with no supplemental feeding and that is why the twins were so underweight? Anyone have any knowledge on how that would work? Also, I'm assuming that she was breast feeding Baby #1 while pregnant with Babies #2 & #3. The mother in the photos looked very healthy; however, I think the kids had been away for a month or two when those photos were taken. (The photos of the parents were on the Website of a Bellingham TV station.)

I'm guessing young religious wing-nut dad was calling all the shots on medical care for the babies, based on his God-given headship role + direct input from God & bible. Time to snoop around and try to sort out if this couple was affiliated with a church.

Sad, all of it. I also wonder if their marriage (deciding to marry an hour or so after they met) had some type of fundie arranged marriage/courtship element to it.

The number of domestic "problem" calls is a huge, immense red flag and I'd be interested in knowing who in the household made the calls.

As my best friend always says, more will be revealed!

[browncoatslytherin]

I'm wondering if the mother was trying to breastfeed all three kids with no supplemental feeding and that is why the twins were so underweight? Anyone have any knowledge on how that would work? Also, I'm assuming that she was breast feeding Special Snowflake #1 while pregnant with Special Snowflakes #2 & #3. The mother in the photos looked very healthy; however, I think the kids had been away for a month or two when those photos were taken. (The photos of the parents were on the Website of a Bellingham TV station.)

because of the timing, i highly suspect that the twins were preemie. they may have undiagnosed feeding issues, but usually preemies need some sort of supplement in feeding to bolster their weight.

[GeoBQn]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Pelvic exams and pap smears were always extremely hard for me. The first was a regular internal ultrasound, and it was so painful I cried through the entire thing. The second was supposed to be a hysteroscopy done under sedation. They then found out that my uterine neck was too curved for their instruments, so they switched to an internal ultrasound with fluid. Even under sedation, I experienced incredible pain and was upset. They ended up sending me to a physical therapist to be treated for high tone pelvic floor dysfunction. I can handle regular pelvic exams much better now, but I don't think I can handle another internal ultrasound.

[Terrie]

Aha!

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2014/12 ... 100/&ihp=1

Quote: "Under questioning from Assistant Attorney General Rob Olson, she summarized the police reports involving the couple and the concerns that those contacts with law enforcement indicated a pattern of domestic problems and mental health issues in the home. She also said that in the course of working with the couple, social workers worried that they weren’t following recommended medical care for their children — specifically not treating Levi’s eczema, which had become infected, with a steroid cream as recommended by medical providers — and that the twins were underweight to the extent that they were below 1 percentile for their age.

I actually find that part the scary part. There was a case in 2009 in Australia where a child died of infection after her parents used homeopathy, instead of real medicine, for her eczema.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/parents- ... -bxvx.html

[browncoatslytherin]

I actually find that part the scary part. There was a case in 2009 in Australia where a child died of infection after her parents used homeopathy, instead of real medicine, for her eczema.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/parents- ... -bxvx.html

wow, i had never heard that before. i didn't know eczema could lead to death like that. i mean, it makes sense, but it's just not something i would have thought of before.

[GeoBQn]

During the Vietnam War, my uncle was exempt from the draft because he has eczema, and that can get super bad in tropical weather.

[Librul]

21 law inforcement visits in 2 years and newborn twins in the less than 1% percentile with no medical care or plan doesn't sound like a CLS run amok to me. It sounds like prudent intervention. Maybe it will prove to be unnecessary, maybe not. The couple sounds unstable to me.

[Toothfairy]

Something isn't adding up here.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Just saw on Facebook the kids have been returned to their parents.

They probably had to agree to use the cream and make sure the babies are gaining weight.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

wow, i had never heard that before. i didn't know eczema could lead to death like that. i mean, it makes sense, but it's just not something i would have thought of before.

I spent 6 days in the hospital when I was 21-ish on very strong steroids and antibiotics because I had a horrific outbreak that quickly got infected, and this was with religious use of my prescriptions and therapies. It was the worst experience of my life. I used to break out from my scalp and inside my ears all the way to my toes, and literally everywhere in between.

[NurseNell]

I'm not going to lie, these people sound batshit crazy to me. No prenatal care, to the point where you are unaware of having twins.

I had a co-worker who had prenatal care and had unexpected twins. This was 15 years ago. I was amazed she hadn't had an ultrasound but she hadn't.

[treemom]

This is from the FB page of a very conservative state rep. North of Bellingham. It does give a little more info on this story.

Jason Overstreet with Erica May

Yesterday at 1:47pm ·

UPDATE: The Rengo Family placement hearing was moved up this morning to 10 a.m. from the scheduled 4 p.m. hearing. I will withhold comment on that move. Security was heavy. The courtroom was packed. The allotted timeframe was 1 hour with an expected decision on placement either with the parents or a semi-permanent out of family placement. If your a poker player, this will be your "tell." The State Attorney General's Office stood in place of the County legal team in the prosecution of this hearing. A rare move indeed. Attorney General Ferguson, the same AG who is persecuting Christian business owners for refusing to participate in weddings that conflict with their closely held religious beliefs, sent his legal team to take over in an attempt to spare the State embarrassment. The Attorney General's Office took the entire hour, discussing police reports where no arrests were made, save one, prior to the birth of the children. No mention of the babies' health and welfare was even attempted by the State. The court commissioner was frustrated at the State's extended attempt to muddy the water, even commenting on the rare nature of such extended testimony on a case that should be cut and dried after a forcible taking of children from their parents. The hearing was extended to tomorrow at 2:30 on the 4th floor of the Whatcom County Courthouse, where he demanded that the State rap up and allow the family's legal team to present it's case. Constitutional Attorney Steven Pidgeon petitioned the court for a writ of habeus corpus, asking that the charges be laid or the children be released to the parents. The writ of habeus corpus, a fundamental tool of liberty guaranteed by both our State and Federal Constitutions, was ignored by the court, the clerk stating that they hadn't even seen one in 20 years, with one judge refusing to even look at the writ.

There is much talk of "more to the story." There certainly is. There always is. If you are tempted to make that statement, ask yourself where your information is coming from and what the validity of that information actually is. This is not a comfortable conversation, it's true. I shudder the horror of your family, or mine, under a microscope of the bureaucracy that is CPS

I am perfectly happy to be under the microscope of CPS

[Mama Mia]

I am perfectly happy to be under the microscope of CPS

No offense, but thats pretty much the common assumption of white ( sorry if I'm assuming wrong, that's my impression from other posts you've made) , 30+, comfortably middle class parents.

Not particularly about this family ---but when CPS does overstep, which they occasionally do, it usually is going to be with a family who is young and/or lower income and/or black or brown. While some issues that come up with CPS can be related to income --- many of them do not.

If anything - the main problem CPS has in regards to nice, financially comfortable, white families is that they practically have to murder their children in front of a CPS worker to get a case plan.

It's kind of like the difference between being a middle aged woman getting pulled over by a cop and being a teenage boy being pulled over by a cop.

And I am not trying to bash either CPS workers or Cops. Most people in both those professions are just working hard at their incredibly stressful jobs and doing wonderfully. But some of them snap, and some of them have personal biases. Not to mention the whole institutional and societal biases that run through everything.

[treemom]

No offense, but thats pretty much the common assumption of white ( sorry if I'm assuming wrong, that's my impression from other posts you've made) , 30+, comfortably middle class parents.

Not particularly about this family ---but when CPS does overstep, which they occasionally do, it usually is going to be with a family who is young and/or lower income and/or black or brown. While some issues that come up with CPS can be related to income --- many of them do not.

If anything - the main problem CPS has in regards to nice, financially comfortable, white families is that they practically have to murder their children in front of a CPS worker to get a case plan.

It's kind of like the difference between being a middle aged woman getting pulled over by a cop and being a teenage boy being pulled over by a cop.

And I am not trying to bash either CPS workers or Cops. Most people in both those professions are just working hard at their incredibly stressful jobs and doing wonderfully. But some of them snap, and some of them have personal biases. Not to mention the whole institutional and societal biases that run through everything.

Of course it is. But you also didn't know I was removed from the home as a child did you?

[treemom]

And of course the difference is that politician was actually speaking to white, middle class 30+ parents and trying to get them worked up.

Do I believe children in poverty tend to get removed more? Yes. Do I believe being white and middle class means abuse gets overlooked? Yes. In fact I was aghast that I didn't get a visit when my then 6 year old fractured his skull and told every person in the hospital a different story of how it happened. I fully expected a visit or at least someone to talk to us and get a read on whether it was from abuse.

But this guy is trying to get people worked up about people who look like me. He isn't talking about the reali biases. He is enflaming a situation that yes, should be discussed but for none of the reasons he thinks.

[Howl]

Partial rewrite and numerous edits of my original post. If any of these details are wrong, please correct.

I found a few more snippets of information that might be of interest or at least they were of great interest to me, to fit together missing pieces that have to do with references to the numerous police visits to the couple, mental illness and domestic violence.

"In a hearing before Whatcom County Superior Court Commissioner Thomas Verge this week, the state attempted to show an unstable household marked by numerous contacts with law enforcement — 14 in Whatcom County and seven in Vancouver, Wash., when the couple lived there."

From the Bellingham Herald summary of the hearing: "Under questioning from Assistant Attorney General Rob Olson, she summarized the police reports involving the couple and the concerns that those contacts with law enforcement indicated a pattern of domestic problems and mental health issues in the home."

From the Web site of a classic rock station (gotta love the interwebs) there is an audio bar with a comment from a "A neighbor and friend of the couple, who asked to remain anonymous, [who] says there’s more to the story." In the audio clip, this person notes that there was a lot of screaming, babies crying and there were problems with the dad being off his medication, and there were mental problems...with him.

You can listen to the audio clip here. From what I can tell from a summary of the most recent hearing, the dad referred to above as being off his medication is NOT Cleave, but Bruce Rengo, Cleave's dad. Cleave has other issues that were addressed in the hearing.

Interestingly, Erica Carey (the mom) "had been born at home herself and her mother was a home-birth educator and leader in La Leche League, a breastfeeding support organization."

And yes, CPS did recommend supplemental feeding for the babies.

Update:

Just came across this information from the Bellingham Herald with an an excellent summary of the case:

Assistant Attorney General Rob Olson this week laid out a case that detailed the family’s numerous contacts with law enforcement since 2013 — 14 in Whatcom County and seven when the couple lived elsewhere in Washington state; refusal or resistance to providing medical care for the children; concern about the twins being underweight; domestic disputes between the couple; Cleave Rengo being controlling of Carey; and Bruce Rengo’s mental health issues, which had included a two-month hospitalization when he stopped taking his medication for bipolar disorder.

As noted, Bruce Rengo is Cleave's dad.

Olson also presented information about Cleave Rengo’s arrest in Battle Ground, when the couple had stayed there and Carey was eight months pregnant with Levi. The original charges included domestic violence and resisting arrest, but the domestic violence charge was dropped in a plea agreement, which included the mandate that Cleave Rengo undergo anger management. But he hadn’t yet completed the anger management requirement and there was a warrant out for his arrest, which concerned the state.

In telling the parents about his decision, [Whatcom County Superior Court commissioner] Verge said to them: “As new parents, you two need help to learn how to parent better.â€

He discounted the contention that no domestic violence occurred because there was no physical violence.

“You feel you have the right to control your spouse, you do not,†he said to Cleave Rengo. (The couple see themselves as husband and wife even though they haven’t yet married.)

So very many problems here.

So let me get this right: at the time the babies were removed, there were 6 people in a one-bedroom apartment: three infants under 1 year old, one person with anger management/control issues and another who had stopped taking medication for bi-polar disorder. Is this correct?

This was an inherently unstable environment that can't be healthy for infants and NONE OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH BREAST FEEDING OR HOME BIRTH.

[karen77]

Is it really sad that this is where I live (in B'ham) and I just noticed this!! ......reading up!

Here is a quote from someone in a FB group in the area that I'm in

"I wish I could comment openly, truthfully. Compassionately, but with truth, because I know Erica personally. I have known her for many years. It has been an unbelievable burden to hold--knowing facts hidden to the public and watching this growing frenzy of misdirected hate and blame. Not being able to put out many of the wildfires. Erica has her own issues and history too, it is not just Cleave. That being said, I hope, under these court-ordered restrictions, they both receive the sustainable, long-term help they need, individually, and as a couple. And I hope a constructive narrative can be formed, that moves the story away from CPS/court system/homebirth/natural health choices, and is able to highlight more of their real individual struggles, so the conversation can actually help and heal the deeper roots to their case. God bless"

[karen77]

Oh and FTR, B'ham has a huge hippie movement, so homebirths and breastfeeding to make people bat an eye. ALso a lot of anti-vaxers here, we have large pertussis breakouts regularly.

[NCMoon]

So very many problems here.

So let me get this right: at the time the babies were removed, there were 6 people in a one-bedroom apartment: three infants under 1 year old, one person with anger management/control issues and another who had stopped taking medication for bi-polar disorder. Is this correct?

This was an inherently unstable environment that can't be healthy for infants and NONE OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH BREAST FEEDING OR HOME BIRTH.

Yeah, my thoughts here too. I've seen numerous CPS cases hit the internet over the past few years on the crunchy websites/FB groups I'm in, and so long as the parents present themselves as crunchy they get full support, because obviously the children were taken *entirely because* of this particular crunchy lifestyle choice that I myself support. Drives me bonkers, especially as there's a distinct lack of support for those who are not practicing the crunchy lifestyle (where's the outrage for the families who bottle feed, plan a c-section, and use a crib in the other room but the rest of the story is the same?), and the areas these families live tend to be full of crunchy parents who are not losing their children.

I've read a few articles on this with differences in them, but a few things really stuck out to me: Who contacted paramedics during birth? Depending on what I've read, it was either the parents (because someone told them to) or "someone informed the paramedics" without saying who the someone was. Also, the description of her running from CPS. It was not stated in what I read that CPS was there to take the children, just "to help." I know each state and county is different, but at least where I live from what I've learned from friends involved on any side of CPS, usually help is offered in the form of classes, counseling, charity, etc long before children are taken. We have a big lack of foster homes here so that factors in, meaning they honestly cannot take children in unless absolutely necessary (ie, immediate danger, have no home to go to, severe neglect requiring medical help, etc). If they were showing up for a visit and to offer aid and she freaked out, grabbed 3 infants, and ran, then it would make sense that they were concerned to the point of taking them. I'm hoping that even having their infants back at home that CPS stays involved for a little while to make sure the family can get on the right track support wise and medically.

[JMarie]

There's a lot of "ifs" here. If the dad takes the anger management classes, if the police aren't called to the home again, if the twins gain weight at an acceptable rate, if the grandfather is compliant with his meds.

I don't see a rosy future full of rainbows and unicorns.

[Black Aliss]

Just saw on Facebook the kids have been returned to their parents.

They probably had to agree to use the cream and make sure the babies are gaining weight.

According to this account, which is far less emotional and speculative than what I've seen on other sites, especially on the FB page, it was about a lot more than skin cream.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2014/12 ... 9/101/102/

I agree that CPS in Washington State oversteps its authority, especially when a young parent comes up against the medical establishment. Seattle Children's Hospital is notoriously arrogant when it comes to dealing with parents who don't agree with their doctors' treatment plans. But I don't think that was the case here. This was appropriate intervention.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Yeah, I'm glad they've ordered counseling and other interventions. Hopefully they can become better partners and parents.

[JMarie]

bellinghamherald.com/2014/12/05/4012570/court-return-rengo-children-to.html?sp=/99/101/

Erica's mom, Kim C. Smith, comments a lot, and boy, is she not happy about the situation and the relationship. i think she really is the grandmother because she started a GoFundMe for the twins: gofundme.com/gjkyf4