Historian Kirk Cameron declares that Halloween is christian

[samurai_sarah]

(snip) It's very possible that the fire custom hasn't always been that elaborate. Very few customs remain the same for centuries on end, and it is a documented phenomenon that customs tend to get more elaborate even within a decade, let alone a century, let alone a millennium. So if you went back 500 years, for example, it may be that the Catholics in your area of Germany had a more modest, less elaborate use of fire, maybe just involving candles or something (which is common to various other branches of Christianity).

Very true. It causes questions, and without records, there are no answers.

ETA: Trying to clarify

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)

It's interesting how Martinmas is just no longer a thing at all in the Commonwealth (and maybe France and Belgium?) because of Armistice Day (St Martin's Day is the 11th of November for those who don't know). St Martin is, appropriately, the saint of both soldiers and pacifists. I've never heard of anywhere but Germany marking Martinmas.

Of course the festival you most associate with fire in the UK is Bonfire Night which is decidedly not Catholic :lol: The bonfires and parades in Lewes look amazing, so much fire!

Armistice Day is a thing where I come from, Bonfire Night isn't. In my area we just celebrate it differently. "Armistice Day" or "Totensonntag" (Sunday of the Dead") is the first Sunday in November. Martinmas is an evening celebration, not a public holiday, so it's the entire village getting together in the evening, the children carrying lanterns, everyone gathers around the fire, and there's mulled wine. (Nothing like Lewes, by which I mean that we don't burn any effigies.)

"Totensonntag" is a much more solemn occasion. You take flowers to the war memorials, and pray for the fallen of all sides. Martinmas is a "children's holiday", whereas our version of Armistice Day consists of the German army going around collecting donations to maintain ALL world war graves, and one prays for all of the fallen.

[patsymae]

Don't most festivals around that time of year involve fire? Chanukah is the festival of lights. Diwali is a festival of lights. It makes sense that people would have celebratory fires as the darkest time of year--in the northern hemisphere--passes.

Anyway, Kirk is a douche but if it gets fundie kids able to celebrate, or at least not piss on anyone else's celebrations, fine with me.

Appropros of nothing, I like Ms. Manners's explanation of why Halloween has become such a huge holiday in the U.S.: You can be who you want, you can eat as many sweets as you want, and you don't have to spend it with your relatives or pretend you care about the less fortunate.

[circularlogic]

I'm slightly confused as to who you're aiming these comments at - fundie Protestants or Catholics/other liturgical Christians? The only holidays fundie Protestants are going to celebrate are Christmas and Easter, none of the others. Catholics and mainstream Protestants largely do not take the Bible literally, certainly not the KJV anyway.

Also, very little of the Bible was written in Aramaic. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek, with small fragments in Aramaic, although Jesus would have spoken Aramaic.

It was more of a rant that went rogue...what i was referring to in a "gift grab" was christmas, easter, etc...the holidays that went from christian tradition to mainstream marketplace.

as far as the idea mentioned previously of the holidays not being related to the christian tradition...no, they don't have alot in common other than the date they occur. which imho, was just a 're-branding' of the celebration. i was referring to the roots of them...going way, way back - pre church, pre constantine, pre pre pre. i read (or watched, can't remember) something that actually correlated the same dates of beltane, samhain, yule, equinoxes, etc with astrology. though, it didn't stick in my mind as to how or why. also, in mythology there are different celebrations that occur around the same dates/seasons as the pagan/christian holidays.

i guess i should have clarifed - jesus spoke aramaic - specifically and the books written around that time were in aramaic. i didn't mean to get hung up on that point. the general idea was that the original document is a far cry from what it is now.

my main point was only that our modern traditions - touting a christian background really come from something else. i am no scholar and i doubt i would hold a candle to some of the knowledge that many of you have in this arena. my comments weren't directed at anyone. like i said in my original post...it was a 'random rant' calm down and carry on. i'm just a bored empty nester with a freakish obsession on fundamentalism and the duggars in general. no harm meant.

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)I agree, slytherin. For example, using sarahsamurai's example of fire - a couple of thousand years ago, way before electricity etc. or knowledge of the science involved, wouldn't it be perfectly natural for anyone - Christian, Pagan, whatever - to hold fire up as a wonder? And would it necessarily always have a religious/spiritual element to it, since the time when fire was first discovered by humans? And could Christians 2000-1500 years ago have used fire in their worship, in the form of candles etc., not because they were stealing a pagan custom and twisting it for their own purposes, but because they personally, culturally thought fire was amazing and thought it represented well their Light of the World?

Another example I can think of is the use of evergreen plants as Christmas decorations, which some claim to be evidence that Christmas has appropriated pagan usage. But first of all, there's no historical written evidence specifically linking modern/early modern Christian use of evergreens to ancient pagan use of them. Secondly, hundreds of years ago, with what else could people have used to decorate their houses? Paper was expensive and didn't come in different colours, flowers didn't grow at that time of the year, etc.étc. So evergreens were pretty much the only option. And thirdly, just because a custom occurs at a religious festival doesn't necessarily mean that the custom itself is religious, it can just be cultural. Slight tangent here, but last year I did a Tudor Christmas cookery course with Ruth Goodman (a historian who appears in various 'living history' TV programmes here in the UK where experts live in the past for a period of time), and she talked a lot about how even 450 years ago in Tudor times, Christmas in England was more secular than religious! Christmas has always culturally been more an excuse for a big get-together and feast than a particularly religious occasion.

Sorry, I've rambled a bit here and I'm not sure I've properly answered what you said in your post!

Oops, sorry, I didn't see your post. I think that you're completely right. In my opinion, local customs can provide questions, but hardly ever answer them. They change with time, and from culture to culture. And even written records barely tell us what was really going on.

For example, there's a written record that my village's local parish priest - a Catholic- used to read a Protestant Mass in the next village, during the 30 years war, after being done with the Catholic one. Basically, that tells us nothing, but the bare facts. A priest read two different masses, in areas that belonged to two different counts. Anything else is speculation.

We don't know. You're right, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dandruff]

“Over time you get some pagans who want to go this is our day, high holy day of Satanic church, that this is all about death, but Christians have always known since the first century that death was defeated, that the grave was overwhelmed, that ghosts, goblins, devils are foolish has-beens who used to be in power but not anymore,†he insisted. “That’s the perspective Christians should have.â€

He believes that goblins used to be in power?

[FloraKitty35]

Speaking of Christians and Halloween does anyone else think the trunk or treat idea is just wrong. I told my husband no way would I take our son to one. We teach kids the rest of the year not to approach people in cars offering candy, then for Halloween we condone people gathering in a parking lot and giving away candy from their trunks. I know a lot of people think oh how novel and fun, but it just makes me uneasy.

I saw a sign yesterday for Trunk and Treat at a fundie church while I was on the way to my dentists appointment. It sounds like the title of a 70's or 80's slasher movie.

[thoughtful]

Something tells me Kirk Cameron just has a really kick ass idea for a costume.

And, if he thinks of another one by March, he can declare Purim a Christian holiday, too!

[calimojo]

I thought Kirk was a talented young actor on Growing Pains, but his cuteness was great for teenaged boy, but doesn't translate well into an adult man. (unlike his sister, who was just average looking as kid, but grew into a pretty adult) When it became obvious that he wasn't really going to have a lot of offers rolling in, I wonder if that was when he made the jump to become the Hollywood Christian poster boy.

I think he came from a religious family, as his sister is also very religious, but still I think if Kirk had had offers like Leonardo DiCaprio was getting after his short time on Growing Pains, he likely would have gladly gone that direction, and kept his radical views on the DL.

[Toothfairy]

Please Kirk hide under a rock

[doggie]

Please Kirk hide under a rock

hide a banana under it he will come.

[Rebelwife]

He believes that goblins used to be in power?

You obviously haven't read "Hogwarts School of Prayer and Miracles." I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the author lets us know that Gringotts is the front for the New World Order[tm][/tm] :shock: :lol: (Or maybe she already has. I confess I haven't read it.)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Any resident Pagans on the board are welcome to correct me, but I do get the sense that there's a lot of cultural appropriation by the church of paganism going on with Halloween.

Obviously, the pagan festival came first.

The church incorporated the existing festival into a new holiday.

Kurt's slightly right about one thing, though. In the process, the church demonized pagan religious symbols. An obvious example would be witches. In the late medieval and early modern period, they were seen as ugly and evil and consorting with the devil - in other words, evil. The thing is, there really were women in Europe who retained some traditional folk healing knowledge, and sometimes some of the old pre-Christian folk religion. Identifying these women as witches was a way of persecuting them. The history wasn't just about fun costumes. It also involves a culture in which it was acceptable to murder women who were accused of witchcraft. At least 40,000 were killed. Once I learned that, some of the traditional Halloween stuff seemed a lot darker. If you think about it, witch costumes are basically celebrating an evil stereotype responsible for the murder of thousands.

[browncoatslytherin]

Any resident Pagans on the board are welcome to correct me, but I do get the sense that there's a lot of cultural appropriation by the church of paganism going on with Halloween.

Obviously, the pagan festival came first.

The church incorporated the existing festival into a new holiday.

Kurt's slightly right about one thing, though. In the process, the church demonized pagan religious symbols. An obvious example would be witches. In the late medieval and early modern period, they were seen as ugly and evil and consorting with the devil - in other words, evil. The thing is, there really were women in Europe who retained some traditional folk healing knowledge, and sometimes some of the old pre-Christian folk religion. Identifying these women as witches was a way of persecuting them. The history wasn't just about fun costumes. It also involves a culture in which it was acceptable to murder women who were accused of witchcraft. At least 40,000 were killed. Once I learned that, some of the traditional Halloween stuff seemed a lot darker. If you think about it, witch costumes are basically celebrating an evil stereotype responsible for the murder of thousands.

i think the use of the term "pagan" is used differently in some situations. here (on fj) pagan refers to the set of paganistic beliefs that are also held by some members here. to a fundamental christian, "pagan" can refer to any religion that isn't their brand of christianity or even to non-religious people (i only say this from my own experience in fundamental christianity, please speak up if your experience is different).

[Anny Nym]

Any resident Pagans on the board are welcome to correct me, but I do get the sense that there's a lot of cultural appropriation by the church of paganism going on with Halloween.

Obviously, the pagan festival came first.

The church incorporated the existing festival into a new holiday.

Kurt's slightly right about one thing, though. In the process, the church demonized pagan religious symbols. An obvious example would be witches. In the late medieval and early modern period, they were seen as ugly and evil and consorting with the devil - in other words, evil. The thing is, there really were women in Europe who retained some traditional folk healing knowledge, and sometimes some of the old pre-Christian folk religion. Identifying these women as witches was a way of persecuting them. The history wasn't just about fun costumes. It also involves a culture in which it was acceptable to murder women who were accused of witchcraft. At least 40,000 were killed. Once I learned that, some of the traditional Halloween stuff seemed a lot darker. If you think about it, witch costumes are basically celebrating an evil stereotype responsible for the murder of thousands.

You indeed have a very interesting point here, but that´s maybe a tad bit of a harsh connection drawn to Halloween. People also dress up as mummies, vampires, ghosts, Frankenstein´s monster, fairies and clowns :wink-kitty: Also, dressing up at Halloween is a "american thing", it has no tradition in that regions of Europe where the main number of "witch-trials" took place.

While the church tried for sure at this or that time to demonize pagan symbols, I have to say we over here always life in kind of a peaceful symbiosis with our "pagan" traditions ( I´m thinking "Perchtnlauf" - which literally includes getting whipped by a bunch of demons and devils :lol: or the gory stories of the "Rauhnächte" (getting skinned alive, anyone?) .

Also, @samurai_sarah already mentioned it, it is unclear how much of our seemingly pagan age-old celebrations are REALLY that pagan and that old (I hope I got that right, if not feel free to correct me).

For example summer solstice fires/ Sommersonnenwendfeuer with the torchlight processions and the burning of "Hansl und Gretl" straw dolls, as placeholders for the burning of child-crippling, hail-making, cow-killin´and harvest-destoyin´ pagan demons... Sound really heavy with age-old pagan mystizism, doesn´t it? Well, it isn´t. It is from the medival times and was originally something that could be translated into "a very big garden party". Like the Oktoberfest.

Maybe Kirk shoud stop putting such a heavy layer of theology (or what he thinks theology is) on just everything. Sometimes thing are just done for fun.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You've got a point that costumes are a more recent thing.

Perhaps I should say that the typical costumes and stories are based on older images than deliberately demonized witches and saw a threat from witches being under Satan's sexual influence. Those images and stereotypes contributed to the hunting down and killing of 40,000 women.

[laura oz]

I totally had that poster in 5th grade. God, what was I thinking? :embarrassed:

[PennySycamore]

I accidentally watched some show on Hallmark Channel today when my husband sat down on the remote. Kirk Cameron was some kind of guest host. He said they are considering making continuations of "Full House" and "Growing Pains" with the old casts. I can't wait to watch them for snark value and also have the casts of both go skirts only!

That unfortunate show is Home and Family which I just plain out boycott. The only good thing about the Hallmark Channel going all Christmasy from October 31st to New Year's is that I won't be subjected to that dreck. I will miss reruns of I Love Lucy, Golden Girls and Frasier, but I'll live.

ETA: Recently, Home and Family had one Michelle Bachmann, forchristsakes! What is this, FauxNews?

[moodygirl86]

I totally had that poster in 5th grade. God, what was I thinking? :embarrassed:

You were 10! I'll let you off.

[kpmom]

I totally had that poster in 5th grade. God, what was I thinking? :embarrassed:

I was too old for a poster, but I used to think he was cute in his Growing Pains days. I was a whole lot older than 10, so don't feel bad.

[kpmom]

That unfortunate show is Home and Family which I just plain out boycott. The only good thing about the Hallmark Channel going all Christmasy from October 31st to New Year's is that I won't be subjected to that dreck. I will miss reruns of I Love Lucy, Golden Girls and Frasier, but I'll live.

ETA: Recently, Home and Family had one Michelle Bachmann, forchristsakes! What is this, FauxNews?

Just fyi, if you get the LOGO channel they show the Golden Girls, plus Designing Women and Will and Grace.

I'm a rerun lover, and hardly watch any new shows (Mad Men and Downton Abbey, excepted).

[homeschoolmomma1]

This sort of pisses me off. Kirk Cameron has BASHED Catholics. In fact he said on that stupid Way of the Master, "Like the God of Muslims, Jews and Catholics..." News flash Kirk... it's the same God... he is an idiot. So now he wants to say that Halloween is okay because of Catholicism. grrr to him.

Oh a side note. I don't like how this guy treats people who are Jewish either. It is rude and uncalled for. He needs to shut up

I'm sorry... I like being Catholic and am annoyed by his foolish idiot ways. This information I am posting is from one of my child's lesson worksheets (so it is for a younger age group) I am wondering if Kirk stumbled upon it??

All Saints’ Day

On November 1, the Church honors all the holy people—known and unknown—

who enjoy the full presence of God. They include martyrs, canonized saints, and

people who have churches named for them as well as quiet, humble people who

loved God and their neighbor and did what good they could during their life on earth.

Some of these saints are probably friends of yours or members of your family, but

they have lots of company. In the Book of Revelation (7:9), St. John tells us that there

is a great multitude of saints in heaven and that they come from every nation and

race on earth. This day, a holy day of obligation, was once called the feast of All

Hallows (or holy ones). The night before was the Eve of All Hallows, now called

Halloween.

This year, because the feast falls on a Saturday, All Saints’ Day is not a holy day

of obligation.

November 2 All Souls’ Day

On this day we remember and pray for the saints in waiting. These are people who

must undergo some purification before they are ready to share in the presence

of God. In 2 Maccabees 12:44-45, we learn that we can get them to heaven quicker

by praying for them. Some souls have no one to pray for them. That’s why some

people make it a point to pray for these abandoned souls. Others like to pray for the

soul closest to achieving heaven. They enjoy feeling that they have helped to give

someone the greatest gift possible: the full presence of God.

[Vivi_music]

To be honest, historians themselves have a hard time identifying exactly what traditions pre-date the christian conversions, or are a result of syncretism, and even traditions that were revived during the 19th century (because we all know those Victorians sure liked some faux-folklore). They can speculate and make theories, but when you go so far back in time where there was no writing, it's hard to tell. Considering scholars who dedicate their life to cultural history can't be certain, I don't pay much attention to Kirk's little opinion here.

[HeatherFeather]

All Saints’ Day

On November 1, the Church honors all the holy people—known and unknown—

who enjoy the full presence of God. They include martyrs, canonized saints, and

people who have churches named for them as well as quiet, humble people who

loved God and their neighbor and did what good they could during their life on earth.

Some of these saints are probably friends of yours or members of your family, but

they have lots of company. In the Book of Revelation (7:9), St. John tells us that there

is a great multitude of saints in heaven and that they come from every nation and

race on earth. This day, a holy day of obligation, was once called the feast of All

Hallows (or holy ones). The night before was the Eve of All Hallows, now called

Halloween.

This year, because the feast falls on a Saturday, All Saints’ Day is not a holy day

of obligation.

Hallowe'en is a contraction of the term All Hallows' Eve, the night before All Saints' Day.

The non-Christian Celts would not have observed Hallowe'en because they did not observe All Saints' Day. Samhain would not have been celebrated on October 31 each year because the Celts were on a lunar-based calendar rather than a solar-based calendar.

Many Celts became at least nominally Christian in the early years of the second millennium, and some retained Samhain practices. In the twentieth century, Hallowe'en was co-opted by popular culture in America and the ghosties and ghoulies were added.

Sources: Folklore and Celtic history classes in college, reading the Catholic Encyclopedia, reading some of Lesley Bannatyne's books.

Thus, Kirk is both right and wrong--quite a feat!

Christmas is a contraction of Christ's Mass. Christmas is celebrated nine months after the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25. I have read that December 25 was chosen, in addition, to help new Christians to avoid participating in Saturnalia (Winter Solstice) because the weeks before Christmas were traditionally times of fast and repentance--no party-hearty times before Christmas. Traditional Christians still commence their Christmas celebrations on the 25th, and they don't end the celebration until February 2.

You can keep Yule, Saturnalia, Samhain, etc., and enjoy them! :dance:

[notsocommon]

Does that mean the churches can finally stop having "Fall Festivals" where people dress up and kids go around getting candy and start having "Halloween" parties where people dress up and kids go around having candy?

On FB one of my weird relatives posted a picture of herself dressed up asking what people thought of her costume. Someone replied "Oh what a good Halloween costume!" and she got all bitchy and said "It isn't a Halloween costume. It is a Fall Festival one for my church on the 31st." :roll:

I made the mistake, once, of calling the 'Fall Festival' 'Halloween' at church, once. I was almost lynched....ok, not quite that drastic, but the reaction had me all :roll: I then told that IF God is against Halloween, then renaming it isn't going to fool Him.

We were eventually asked to leave the church. Seems like logic was a BAD thing there