City subpeonas sermons

[BrownieMomma]

All over my FB -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo ... s-sermons/

I'll be the first to admit I can't follow all of Volokh's reasonings.

The gist of the story is that Houston's mayor passed a controversial ordinance called HERO. Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, the "Bathroom Bill" which allows a person to choose which bathroom they can use by which gender they identify with.

It hasn't gone into effect yet. Someone filed a lawsuit, but none of the pastors ordered to turn over their sermons are plaintiffs in that lawsuit. In response, City Attorney issued the subpeonas.

Naturally, the mayor knew NOTHING of this until the story broke in the media.

There's a link for a memorandum to quash the subpeonas but no idea what that really means.

Sounds to me like a punitive witch hunt.

[Coco]

Agree with this bit: "I’m not sure what sort of legally relevant information might be contained in the subpoenaed sermons. But the subpoena ought to be narrowed to that legally relevant information, not to all things about homosexuality, gender identity, the mayor, or even the petition or the ordinance." Although, the sermon portions about the mayor could be slander, so i disagree with him there.

Some churches are huge community centers. They do wield political power. Where is the dividing line as the church's influence comes into play? When are they legally culpable? Can a professor in the local community college class also be held responsible for his words in the same way? A college professor discussing something gives a different vibe than a preacher claiming to be leading God's flock with the authority of "scripture" behind him/her.

There's also tax-exempt status as part of that whole shebang since these churches do make money and are basically businesses with employees in some ways.

Imho they just need to stick to basic principles of morality from the pulpit, and leave the opinions about specific government officials to private conversation or small group discussions.

[RosyDaisy]

Personally the government should stay out of church business and vise versa unless a real crime has been committed (abuse, theft, etc.). This also should mean that churches should not contribute any money supporting or endorsing political candidates. That is money that could be spent helping people.

[gustava]

Personally the government should stay out of church business and vise versa unless a real crime has been committed (abuse, theft, etc.). This also should mean that churches should not contribute any money supporting or endorsing political candidates. That is money that could be spent helping people.

I'm a heathen, and I agree.

[formergothardite]

I'm confused. What are they going after them for? Isn't it illegal for churches to tell members how to vote and get involved in politics? If they are going after them for that, I could see it because the sermons would prove that they were telling people what to do politically. But if they are just telling them that they can't preach against people who are gay, then that is wrong. I may think it is a horrible belief system, but churches should still be able to teach that.

[DGayle]

Let churches talk, but also make them pay taxes. A lot of what churches preach boils down to politics and attempting to heavily influence to the point of all but ordering people to vote a certain way.

[mirele]

This arose out of a failed drive to get enough signatures to try and put Houston's new anti-discrimination ordinance on the ballot. When that failed, the pastors sued. This is part of the city's response to the lawsuit. Of *course* the lawyers for the city are going to ask for the sermons. It would be malpractice for them not to do so. And it's quite likely that the subpoena will be limited by the judge hearing the case.

The thing that has to be kept in mind about all this is that these pastors want to overturn an ordinance which prohibits discrimination against GLBT persons in housing and employment. In other words, these hateful people want to be able to continue their hate and punish GLBT persons by denying them jobs and housing.

I have no sympathy for a bunch of pastors getting bit in the butt by their own actions. Especially when it's clear that they want to legally continue hating other human beings.

Edited to add punctuation. I, do, know.when.and.where,to.put,periods...

[mirele]

Here's a right-winger calling out his fellow right-wingers for whining about the subpoena.

americanvision.org/11407/houston-demanding-oversight-pastors-sermons/

Here's the pertinent paragraph:

The City is not making a move to monitor sermons. The city is merely responding to a lawsuit against it and using standard powers of discovery in regard to a handful of pastors who are implicated as relevant to the lawsuit. The issue is here: once you file a lawsuit, you open up yourself and potentially your friends and acquaintances to discovery. This is the aspect that has not been reported, but it is an important part of the context. This is basic court procedure. But the headlines make it sound like a surprise attack by leftists advancing their agenda on unsuspecting Christians.

Shamelessly stolen from the Joe.My.God blog.

[Firiel]

This arose out of a failed drive to get enough signatures to try and put Houston's new anti-discrimination ordinance on the ballot. When that failed, the pastors sued. This is part of the city's response to the lawsuit. Of *course* the lawyers for the city are going to ask for the sermons. It would be malpractice for them not to do so. And it's quite likely that the subpoena will be limited by the judge hearing the case.

The thing that has to be kept in mind about all this is that these pastors want to overturn an ordinance which prohibits discrimination against GLBT persons in housing and employment. In other words, these hateful people want to be able to continue their hate and punish GLBT persons by denying them jobs and housing.

I have no sympathy for a bunch of pastors getting bit in the butt by their own actions. Especially when it's clear that they want to legally continue hating other human beings.

Edited to add punctuation. I, do, know.when.and.where,to.put,periods...

Thanks for this-- I hadn't been able to find any reporting on the subject that wasn't Fox News, so I had no idea what the real story might be. I thought I read that (some of?) the pastor's subpoenaed weren't involved in the lawsuit, though. Do you know if that's the case?

[mirele]

I don't know. I haven't gotten caught up on the case. I'm still trying to forget that I lived in Houston for 10 years of my life.

[laura oz]

I have two Facebook friends praying for the pastors. I've had to hide them; first they're praying for Duck Dynasty and now this. *head explodes*

[Mama Mia]

I think I agree with the articles author. I can see how sermons that were written and/ or delivered by Pastors who are directly involved in the lawsuit could be relevant IF they spoke directly to the subject that's covered in the lawsuit, or were directly telling their congregations how to vote. But otherwise that seems like a big over-reach that is going to blow up in their faces. It really has a McCarthy era feel to it. That's the problem with Free Speech -- it protects people you don't agree with too.

I would even be leery about how broadly they interpret any allegations of inappropriately discussing politics. If this week the government can say they aren't allowed to discuss their anti-gay stance because it's also a current political issue -- what's to stop the next, right wing, administration from retaliating against churches that promote equal rights for LGBT people based on the same premis?

[BrownieMomma]

The pastors in question are neither plaintiffs nor parties to the lawsuit. I don't know who filed the lawsuit, and I don't know what is covered in HERO other than the bathrooms.

I thought I saw that both the mayor and the city attorney were claiming they didn't know about the subpeonas but I can't find that now.

I did find in Houston Chronicle that they plan to revise the subpoenas.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/po ... 828210.php

[salex]

Not surprisingly, the normal cast of the traveling show have got a quick show together to take up collections for themselves, promote their speakers and show support for Houston churches the sunday before election day.

Join Christians across America for I Stand Sunday on November 2, 2014. Hosted by Family Research Council and other partners, speakers from across the nation will gather at Grace Community Church in Houston, Texas to focus on the freedom to live out our faith free of government intrusion or monitoring. We will stand with pastors and churches in Houston, Texas who have been unduly intimidated by the city's Mayor in demanding they hand over private church communication.

David and Jason Behnam, Herman Costano, Willie Davils, Dr. Ronnie Floyd, Magda Merida, Mike Huckabee, Khan Huynh, Tony Perkins, Stever Riggle, Alan Robertson, Phil Roberston, Dr. Rick Scarborough, Erik Stanley, Todd Starnes, Dave Welch, and Dr. Ed Young.

Even a link to watch it live folks.

istandsunday.com/

[BrownieMomma]

The Duggars weren't invited? Shocking.

[GeoBQn]

The Duggars had a FB status supporting the pastors. They would probably go to that rally if it wasn't the day after Jessa's wedding.

[DGayle]

This arose out of a failed drive to get enough signatures to try and put Houston's new anti-discrimination ordinance on the ballot. When that failed, the pastors sued. This is part of the city's response to the lawsuit. Of *course* the lawyers for the city are going to ask for the sermons. It would be malpractice for them not to do so. And it's quite likely that the subpoena will be limited by the judge hearing the case.

Ah, using the pulpit for political purposes. Pay your damned taxes!!

[PopRox]

That rally is going to be just a few miles from me. Great-- I bet that stretch of I45 is going to be a nightmare that day (worse than usual, anyway).

Thanks for messing up my neighborhood, damn fundies.