Heidi (Roach) Botkin influencing her man

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

He's got some kind of serious health issue that gives terrible headaches. Pretty sure it was part of the pull to move away from San Antonio (though I think they suspected problems, too and that had to figure somewhere in the move) for a better location for his health. From what I understand the disease is I think nerve-related and very debilitating.

I've been wondering for awhile if there was something wrong. I figured it wasn't life threatening. This makes me feel very badly for him. When I was younger, I had a neurological problem that caused horrible headaches. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[treemom]

I have speculated he is being treated at Vanderbilt. Way back when knight visited I also speculated he may have been participating in some treatments at Vandy that aren't exactly in line with the robotkin beliefs.

All I keep thinking is no matter what those women can and can't do, they spread a lie that put women like Lourdes in the situation she was in. Let's not forget she was in Return of the Daughters. They might have all the freedom in the world and they spread a poisonous theology that denies other women that freedom and in the case of Lourdes allowed her to be sexually assaulted.

[formergothardite]

After all this brainwashing it is hard to realize that they have the option to leave. If they have been raised in the patriarchy to think that they can never leave and be independent then they aren't "choosing" to stay.

Of course, if they haven't been told since childhood that they need to stay at home and serve Daddy and they know they can be independent then they are pretty awful people to go about preaching these things. But I think that they have been raised to never consider the option of leaving and striking out on their own and I feel sorry for them.

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)

I have heard basically the same thing from someone else. I know what their property is like. It sounds nice to me. If you really like your family and you live on a nice property, why would you want to leave?

How about leaving to get an education? Or a job? Or to become your own person?

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

How about leaving to get an education? Or a job? Or to become your own person?

You could technically have all of those things and still reside on the family property. But I was speaking from their perspective. If they are happy and content with their lives, are making an income, have great relationships with each other, and like their land/area, what motivation would they have to leave? We may question things looking in, but from where they're sitting, I don't think they're looking out wishing they could "become their own person".

[formergothardite]

You could technically have all of those things and still reside on the family property. But I was speaking from their perspective. If they are happy and content with their lives, are making an income, have great relationships with each other, and like their land/area, what motivation would they have to leave? We may question things looking in, but from where they're sitting, I don't think they're looking out wishing they could "become their own person".

That is actually really, really sad. Part of becoming an adult is becoming your own persona and finding out what you really like and what you really believe, not just what you have been told to believe. And if none of these women(the ones CnD said wouldn't "choose" to leave) would even think to become independent then there has been some serious brainwashing and soul crushing going on. Reminds me of the Arndt men. All those adults, some even into their 30's and none of them appear to ever think to leave. This isn't normal or healthy behavior.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

That is actually really, really sad. Part of becoming an adult is becoming your own persona and finding out what you really like and what you really believe, not just what you have been told to believe. And if none of these women(the ones CnD said wouldn't "choose" to leave) would even think to become independent then there has been some serious brainwashing and soul crushing going on. Reminds me of the Arndt men. All those adults, some even into their 30's and none of them appear to ever think to leave. This isn't normal or healthy behavior.

What I meant by the part you bolded is that I think they already consider themselves to be an individual with different interests, and so don't see the need to go "looking for themselves" so to speak. The ladies at least probably don't consider themselves independent, as the married sons surely do. But I definitely think they see themselves as individuals with unique personalities, and even some different ideas and beliefs. From what I understand from friends, there is definitely unity among that family, but a fair amount of healthy debate too. I know they're favorites to be snarked on, and they have said some "off" things. But I actually think they may be one of the healthiest fundie families out there. Yes, I actually wrote that ;-)

[formergothardite]

What I meant by the part you bolded is that I think they already consider themselves to be an individual with different interests, and so don't see the need to go "looking for themselves" so to speak. The ladies at least probably don't consider themselves independent, as the married sons surely do. But I definitely think they see themselves as individuals with unique personalities, and even some different ideas and beliefs. From what I understand from friends, there is definitely unity among that family, but a fair amount of healthy debate too. I know they're favorites to be snarked on, and they have said some "off" things. But I actually think they may be one of the healthiest fundie families out there. Yes, I actually wrote that ;-)

What you don't seem to be getting is that it isn't healthy to have raised girls so that they turn into adults who would never consider being independent. I bet the married Maxwell sons consider themselves independent, but clearly they are not and are very much controlled by their father. People should be filled with horror at the notion that the women would never choose or consider leaving like CnD claimed.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I'd say it's more likely manipulation and knowing what the community would think as opposed to an actual prohibition in most cases. These girls are not physically restrained from it and in fact, some of them are the loudest proponents of their own beliefs.

Oh yes. Having come from another pocket of the same community, I definitely witnessed that in person. Still do, on occasion.

[treemom]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck

[CloakNDagger]

What you don't seem to be getting is that it isn't healthy to have raised girls so that they turn into adults who would never consider being independent. I bet the married Maxwell sons consider themselves independent, but clearly they are not and are very much controlled by their father. People should be filled with horror at the notion that the women would never choose or consider leaving like CnD claimed.

True, but once they get to a certain point, they willingly perpetuate it. That was my point. I'm not saying that people should or shouldn't be filled with horror, just reporting the way I find things to be. At some point, while you might consider them victims, they also guilty of victimizing others through their vociferous proclamation and promotion of their own beliefs.

[formergothardite]

True, but once they get to a certain point, they willingly perpetuate it. That was my point. I'm not saying that people should or shouldn't be filled with horror, just reporting the way I find things to be. At some point, while you might consider them victims, they also guilty of victimizing others through their vociferous proclamation and promotion of their own beliefs.

Of course. But my original point was that none of these women have really been 'choosing" to stay. They have been manipulated and brainwashed to the point where, if it is true many of them wouldn't even think to leave, they can't see that they have choices. It isn't like they are making a choice to stay like a person who hasn't been raised in such an emotionally stunting environment would make. It is abuse, straight out what has been done to them and now they are perpetuating the abuse, but nobody needs to act like that the environment they were raised in was healthy.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Of course. But my original point was that none of these women have really been 'choosing" to stay. They have been manipulated and brainwashed to the point where, if it is true many of them wouldn't even think to leave, they can't see that they have choices. It isn't like they are making a choice to stay like a person who hasn't been raised in such an emotionally stunting environment would make. It is abuse, straight out what has been done to them and now they are perpetuating the abuse, but nobody needs to act like that the environment they were raised in was healthy.

That's a stretch. Certainly there are abusive fundie families, just there is abuse in all kinds of families. What makes them abusive? Because they believe daughters should be under their father's protection until they marry? Every fundie family who believes that is then automatically abusive? That's ridiculous.

[formergothardite]

That's a stretch. Certainly there are abusive fundie families, just there is abuse in all kinds of families. What makes them abusive? Because they believe daughters should be under their father's protection until they marry? Every fundie family who believes that is then automatically abusive? That's ridiculous.

Can you explain why it isn't abusive to raise a girl in an emotionally stunting environment, brainwash her to the point where leaving would never enter her mind, or if she does actually want to leave she tries to repress all such feelings and hide them as much as possible because she has been raised to see the idea of independence as wrong and she knows how the community will treat her if she follows completely natural desires? Growing up and being independent is part of being an adult. Growing up and never thinking that you can leave isn't healthy.

[samurai_sarah]

That's a stretch. Certainly there are abusive fundie families, just there is abuse in all kinds of families. What makes them abusive? Because they believe daughters should be under their father's protection until they marry? Every fundie family who believes that is then automatically abusive? That's ridiculous.

Abuse is never ridiculous, it is often insidious.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Abuse is never ridiculous, it is often insidious.

I have been abused. I did not, and would not ever, call abuse ridiculous. To imply most fundamentalist Christian families are abusive IS ridiculous. It is like fundies saying that sending children to public school is abusive. Raising children in a belief system that is outside of cultural norms does not necessarily equal abuse.

[treemom]

Yes I believe it is is emotional and psychologically abusive to teach people that based on their gender they need to be under the control of another. It is equally abusive to teach others that because of their gender, they need to control their partner or children of the opposite gender. And finally it is abusive to teach your children that you can not be a fully functioning adult until you are married.

Not all abuse leaves a physical mark.

[formergothardite]

Yes I believe it is is emotional and psychologically abusive to teach people that based on their gender they need to be under the control of another. It is equally abusive to teach others that because of their gender, they need to control their partner or children of the opposite gender. And finally it is abusive to teach your children that you can not be a fully functioning adult until you are married.

Not all abuse leaves a physical mark.

You said it better than I could. The only thing I will add is that it is abusive to teach and manipulate children to believe that because of their gender they can never be a fully functioning, independent adult. And that is what they are doing to girls.

[DefraudedByPlaid]

Any way to show the picture to us non-FB members? Would love to see how Mr. Future PM of New Zealand looks without the "I desperately need an enema" -look on his face.

Would a more seasoned FJer than me please explain: Was the idea that they would build a dominionist media empire, get enough support to have Isaac and other men of similar dominionist persuasion voted into power, and then start reverting back to Old Testament-style law? Why did they pick New Zealand - did they think people there would be more receptive than in the US?

[treemom]

Since my bestie is a Kiwi (and I know we have some here as well) I can assure you that they would not have been more receptive.

[ladyamylynn]

Yes I believe it is is emotional and psychologically abusive to teach people that based on their gender they need to be under the control of another. It is equally abusive to teach others that because of their gender, they need to control their partner or children of the opposite gender. And finally it is abusive to teach your children that you can not be a fully functioning adult until you are married.

Not all abuse leaves a physical mark.

Preach it, sister. Those of us recovering from a patriarchal fundamentalist upbringing KNOW first hand the pain and suffering it brings. Telling your daughters they are being rebellious for wanting to go to college, telling them they're going against God's plan for wanting a higher education and an independent life- this IS abuse. Here's a thought experiment for those who don't see what's so bad about the cloistered Botkin compound: What if they were fundamentalist Mormons or Muslims? Would you still be so laissez-faire about the treatment of their daughters? Babycakes, CloaknDagger?

[CloakNDagger]

Preach it, sister. Those of us recovering from a patriarchal fundamentalist upbringing KNOW first hand the pain and suffering it brings. Telling your daughters they are being rebellious for wanting to go to college, telling them they're going against God's plan for wanting a higher education and an independent life- this IS abuse. Here's a thought experiment for those who don't see what's so bad about the cloistered Botkin compound: What if they were fundamentalist Mormons or Muslims? Would you still be so laissez-faire about the treatment of their daughters? Babycakes, CloaknDagger?

I KNOW what kind of pain is involved, but those who are willing participants do not feel the pain. Instead, they tend to inflict it on others by their self-righteous attitudes and manipulation.

[ladyamylynn]

I KNOW what kind of pain is involved, but those who are willing participants do not feel the pain. Instead, they tend to inflict it on others by their self-righteous attitudes and manipulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

[formergothardite]

I KNOW what kind of pain is involved, but those who are willing participants do not feel the pain. Instead, they tend to inflict it on others by their self-righteous attitudes and manipulation.

If they have been raised since childhood in an environment where they have been emotionally stifled and brainwashed to think that they have no choices, they aren't willing participants. And how do you know they feel no pain? I taught at ATI events the ATI curriculum to young girls something I very much regret now. People on the outside could have looked and thought I was a willing participant who felt no pain, but they would have been wrong.

[Arete]

Would a more seasoned FJer than me please explain: Was the idea that they would build a dominionist media empire, get enough support to have Isaac and other men of similar dominionist persuasion voted into power, and then start reverting back to Old Testament-style law? Why did they pick New Zealand - did they think people there would be more receptive than in the US?

It was never supposed to be one Geoff's sons who would be future PM of New Zealand. It would have been one of his great-grandsons, so one of Isaac's sons. At one time Goeff had his entire snort worthy 200 year plan circulating on line, and what a treasure trove of crazy it was. For those who think this is a somewhat "normal" fundie family who all just happen to like living in the same property, I would advise you to think again. That 200 year plan talked about building up estates, as in mansions, "servants", and economic self sufficiency for each sons estate, was estimating the number of children from each marriage, what sorts of social connections each generation would need to make to accumulate power, etc.

I could not access the document last time I tried to look a few months ago The Botkins obviously made it disappear. Doug went down and that plan was a huge liability..

Don't be fooled, these are dangerous people. They are power hungry and they are liars.