Positive parenting: Discipline without pain

[FJismyheadship]

It is hard when you don't understand what they are communicating.

Today I figured out my daughter is VERY hungry the past couple of days. More than usual. At first I couldn't figure out why she was cranky and did everything I could think of. It wasn't til she pulled a nutrigrain bar out of my suitcase that I was still unpacking and brought it to me that I figured it out. She also wants me to feed her instead of feeding herself. If I put a sandwich down and cut it up, she doesn't want it. If I fees her scrambled eggs, she will eat them. She wants to be spoon fed instead of feeding herself.

Before bed she ate two bowls of macaroni and one of those Gerber toddler meals, and went right to sleep.

I prefer knowing what's wrong bur its hard to figure out sometimes.

[latraviata]

Different story here.

One of my children became ill at 5 and died at 28.

Children and child rearing was my profession when I had my babies and I thought I knew everyting about it.

Not......so I had to let the academics go and trust my instinct, which worked quite well.

The only thing which came in handy I could anticipate to their next level of development. I got their colour pencils, clay, books and toys in time.

The only advice I have to parents is love them, show it to them, use your common sense, communicate and be aware that as a parent you are in charge and that doesn't mean spanking...at all.

Bringing up a child with a severe illness requires a lot of sensitivity and common sense at the same time.

We watched parents in the children's hospital who stopped proper parenting, because of quilt and pity. We never did, within reason of course.

Anticipating his complicated life we tried to guard him against the challenging and difficult life awaiting, by working very hard to try to build his self confidence.

Two kidney transplants, his father was the first donor I was the second.

We were very casual about it, well you need a spare part and we happened to have one for you no strings attached, we gave you life and we do it again.

He turned out to be a very gentle, empathic, witty and bright boy/gentleman and I am glad and proud he was my child.

He was an intellectual (with a baby face) a Masters in business administration employed by the ministery of Justice. Though his true calling was to be an author, he started a book and his older brother, my cousin and I try to finish it for him.

His older brother is an exuberant, epicurean, witty and very bright doctor, musician, writer, technician, scientist and with a very broad knowledge about almost everything. As one of my friends said, you only have to push a button and there he goes.

So apart form the academics, they are/ were nice sociable people, fun to be with, always great and interesting conversations.

Both are/were very verbal and eloquent and I like to think because everything in our household was bookable.

I had to talk to them, they lost their father when they were 15 and 13. From that moment I had to work full time, raise two teenage boys and cope, not only with my own grieve but with two young boys mourning their father. I just did it, as simple as that. Now I am 65 and it all comes back to me, hard! And so, so much harder after Rigolo died.

Cuteneurorad and I survived half of the - once so happy family- of four, which is another huge obstacle to work with. But we keep the dialogue open and that helps.

The communication which was so important to us from the day they were born pays off impressively.

I had to explain to Rigolo why he couldn't do the things other children did, the medication regime, the endless hospital visits, surgeries, why we did what we did. We had to talk about his father's death. I had to explain and talk to them and I always did.

When cuteneurorad said all these nice things about me, being funny, reasonable and eccentric he said many more things and I am not going to boast about it. But one of the most important things is, you always talked and listened to us. Our relationship is not soggy or symbiotic, we agreed to not to let that happen and we are both very aware not depend and lean too much and keep it within healthy bounderies. He has his lif and I have mine.

This is for both sons, for one sadly posthumously, if you treat your (future) wife like you treat your mother, she will be a very lucky woman.

Sorry for the poor English and interpunction, I can't get it right even in my own languages.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Oh, latraviata. You are so, so eloquent and I am sorry for your losses. I think it really is special that while your son was here you treated him with respect and now your other son recognizes it.

[Hisey]

Latraviata, you are a very courageous woman. I'm sorry you have suffered such terrible losses.

I have several suggestions for parenting as an abuse survivor.

1. Get as much support as you can. It is very helpful to have a husband or friend take over if you start to feel overwhelmed.

2. I loved the book Magic 1-2-3

3. Be open and honest with your kids. If you had a parent who was an abuser, you really can't hide it from them, and you shouldn't. Nor do you need to mention it everyday. Somewhere in the middle is appropriate. Find a term to describe your abuser (ex, "my mean mother"), and use that as a blanket term. Then, if you are triggered at Xmas time, you can explain it to them briefly, "My mean mother always acted worse at Xmas, so Xmas makes me tired. I'm sorry if I can't play right now" It's better than having the kids blame themselves.

4. Answer your kids' questions about your past when it comes up.

5. It's OK to put your toddler in her crib and walk away till you are calm. Not far away, obviously, but in the next room or thereabouts.

6. Give yourself breaks, by using daycare or babysitters.

7. Most important of all--stay away from abusive or dysfunctional family. They will derail you at every opportunity. Move away if possible. Keep the kids away, or at least allow only supervised visit.

[Micah]

Something happened the other day that really brought the Ken threads to light for me. My son has always been a picky eater. He doesn't eat much and there are a lot of foods that he won't eat at all (I think he's got a very sensitive sense of taste). He's not underweight though and is always full of energy, so I just roll with it while encouraging him to eat as much as possible.

My partner was watching me try and convince son that three more bites wouldn't kill him. Partner said, "You know what my Dad used to do? If We got up before our plates were empty he grab our arm and slam us back into the chair. If we still didn't eat, he sit next to us and slap our faces until we ate it all. Didn't matter how long it took or how much we cried."

I said, "Please tell me you're not suggesting we do that." Partner said, "NO! God no, I was just thinking how much nicer what you're doing is.....more frustrating for you, but nicer."

It made me so sad. Partner's parents used methods pretty much identical to what Ken and Lori preach. They produced a damaged person. He has no relationship with his parents beyond christmas and birthdays. He loves the fact that our son feels he can wrestle with him and engage in silly fun. He said, "I was too scared to ever try and play with my Dad like that."

His parents wonder why I never let them babysit :angry-banghead:

[dianapavelovna]

In particular, if anyone can point me to any resources, books, or forums for parenting for abuse survivors, I would be eternally grateful. I honestly had no idea how triggering parenting would be. And I've never actually frequented any Mommy boards, I don't think, so if there's a good one with a thread on the topic, I'd love to know.

I haven't read it, but I have heard good things about Breaking the Cycle of Abuse by Beverly Engel. http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Cycle-Ab ... 471740594/

[LilyRose]

I would also recommend the website Aha Parenting! It is nice and easy to navigate and divided into sections according to age group

[Dollypeeps]

My step father and mother where of the clean your plate variety or you will eat or get it later at whatever meal.

Step father saw it as a battle of the wills. I saw it as a disgusting thing and wasn't eating it. I was 6. I still didn't eat it after 3 days of them trying. I was a wasteful child they said and got beaten that night instead of eating it.

Beatings where the norm for me growing and I vowed I wouldn't hit my own kids. I was terrified I would smack, hit or even beat my kids so started writing notes on why not to and it worked for me.

Crying baby I mean crying. Overwhelmed lay baby down somewhere safe and leave for 5 minutes go back soothe baby.

A none eater leave them be don't get worked up over it even when health visitor is saying different.

A biter loudly say ouch that hurt they stop usually.

A messy room who cares, make it a game now that worked every time with my boys growing up.

I have two kids well young adults that have sensory issues with food and I am glad I didn't go my mother and step father route that's for sure. They always say get em to eat they'll love it no they bloody won't. Mother is still a clear your plate to the point she will make you sit there till you do I am not.

She also still thinks we got chastised as kids not beaten. I beg to differ. Being dragged by your hair out of bed and punched isn't a smack on the hand is it.

She has never been allowed to watch the kids overnight and knows why but denies anything she did in the past. I was mean and granny is nice tactic she has used in the past. It didn't work. Yes I doubted myself a lot but I was getting help through counselling.

I still have triggers to this day like certain smells.

My kids turned out not to badly I think 3 out of 5 in full time employment 1 at college 1 at school. All productive people in society. Kind to others and their sibs. It wasn't all plain sailing I have to say it was hard. Yes I did have a husband till our divorce helping and I use that term loosely. His parents where a god send though. My friends kept my sanity for me too.

[latraviata]

As a young baby Cuteneurorad cried all day (not night thank god) and it absolutely drove me potty.

One day my mother called and I was in tears. Faster than light she came over to my house and said, get dressed and go to the hairdresser or something to pamper yourself and take your time.

After a few hours when I came back, my house was sterilised, the laundry ironed, simmering pots and pans on the stove and the baby asleep...... :violin:

A good friend, who used to be a GP in the Dutch colonies, came to visit and with one glance at the baby, he said, the boy is hungry.

In a few weeks Cuteneurorad, who was a relatvely small baby at birth (with enormous hands and feet) had developped into a mini giant.

The former GP prescribed a sort of formula, very old fashioned though, normal milk and rice flower. It worked like a charm.

My mother wasn't really a candidate for the mother of the year award, but oh, what an excellent grandmama she was!

She warned us, don't make the same mistakes I made with you, I was young and ignorant.

[Alcyone]

This is a great topic. I wanted to mention two must-read books: "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" by Naomi Aldort and "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn. These are especially good for those who have been raised or immersed in fundamentalist thinking re: parenting and child rearing and would like help in doing a 180 in their thinking.

latraviata, my heart breaks for your loss. Good for your mother for apologizing and in turn giving you a chance to be such a good mother.

[Rebelwife]

I think I am the best parent when I remember what I want my outcomes to be - confident, empathetic children who can make their own way in their lives and be happy and successful on their own terms. (Maybe that's just my business consulting "outcome based management" background talking. :lol: ) The reason that it is so important to me to remember this is that my two children couldn't be more different if they tried. What works with #1 is sure to be the worst possible thing to ever do with #2.

I had to learn very quickly that #1 responds best to sincere, loving correction - she's a pleaser but can be pretty lazy too. Correcting #2 means banging your head against a brick wall. I have to disengage emotionally from her and give her clear choices. The key to choices, though, means that you truly have to be OK with whatever choice the child makes. (Not to say you can't have a preference, of course, but you have to be willing to live with whatever the child decides.) The example I remember is bedtime. I don't know how many times I said some variation of "you can walk to the bathroom and brush your teeth and then I'll read you a story and sing you a song in your bed, or I can carry you to the bathroom and brush your teeth for you while you fight me and then you'll have to go to bed with no story or song." Sometimes she picked option 1 and sometimes she picked option 2. Option 1 was always my preference, but either way her teeth were brushed and she was in bed.

I do have some great memories of her throwing herself on the floor and saying "The problem is I don't like any of your choices!" :lol:

If I spanked child #1, it would have broken her heart and really damaged our relationship. If I had spanked child #2 she would remember only the spanking (and remember it FOREVER) and it would have destroyed our relationship.

[latraviata]

The reason that it is so important to me to remember this is that my two children couldn't be more different if they tried. What works with #1 is sure to be the worst possible thing to ever do with #2.

Same here. That's why parents should be creative and that takes a lot of effort, that's proper parenting.

You are right, spanking/abuse is never the solution, whatever type of child. It is lazy, primitive and cruel parenting!!

[latraviata]

This is a great topic. I wanted to mention two must-read books: "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" by Naomi Aldort and "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn. These are especially good for those who have been raised or immersed in fundamentalist thinking re: parenting and child rearing and would like help in doing a 180 in their thinking.

latraviata, my heart breaks for your loss. Good for your mother for apologizing and in turn giving you a chance to be such a good mother.

She was an obnoxious, neurotic and witty old bat, but dead honest and a fantastic grandmama!Force feeding? When her grandchildren didn't want to eat, she gave them cake, a grandparent's prerogative, spoil them rotten! Children are bright enough to know the difference between parents and grandparents!

When they refused to eat (which actually sporadically happened), I tought well..you are a well fed western child, no harm done when you miss a meal, but it is all very well, you can't leave the table when the rest of us is still eating and you are not getting anything else.

When they were older I suggested just 2 tiny bites for politeness, it worked.

[Full enough quiver]

Thats what I do with food. They have to take one bite for politeness. If they don't like it, fine, they don't have to eat it, but they can't leave the table while everyone else is eating. They are to sit and make conversation. Most of the time, they end up eating their food, since they weren't "full", they just wanted to go play. Plus, I made sure to serve things they like. I remember as a kid being forced to eat carrots, to the point of vomiting. To this day, I won't eat carrots. The smell makes me nauseous.

[2xx1xy1JD]

A general tip:

1. Appreciate that your child arrived with a unique personality and traits. Some things aren't going to change, so you need to figure out how to parent your own unique child. Parenting books and advice are great....but sometimes, it's like reading an operating manual and finding out that the manual is for version 2.3 and you have version 2.6. Once you do figure out your kid's unique personality and needs, life gets easier.

It would have been handy for my kids to have the following labels:

Girl 1: Very sensitive, very tuned into emotions and her environment. Tummy may hurt due to refux, feed often and be prepared for lots of night soothing. Keep environment clean and tidy and quiet, make sure she is never alone, keep blood sugars steady and have lots of cuddling and bonding time. Has physical needs and a tremendous need for love and attachment, but also very loving and conscientious and lacks any hint of ill will or defiance.

Girl 2: An independent, highly intelligent adult, frustrated to be stuck in the body of a baby. Wants nothing more than to be treated like an adult, and will assume an awesome amount of responsibility.

Boy: Content and cheerful, but DO NOT MISS NAP OR BEDTIME. Always have a baby washcloth or blankie handy. Vey competititve.

[flojo]

I have used and loved "Love and Logic." It has a slightly Christian spin on it and I am not Christian but it's easy enough for me to disregard that and apply the basic principles. It has been a life saver in our family.

I'm not a parent (until September!), but I LOVE teaching with love and logic. I have applied a number of the tools they suggest in the past with 11-13 year old students and the results are great - happy, secure children who take responsibility for their own actions and learning, and far less time as grumpy Ms. Flojo!

[docmom]

Latraviata, I'm so sorry for your loss and I love your parenting advice. I, too, am parenting a child with a serious medical condition. I remember after he was born wondering how I would parent him and the social worker at the medical center gave me the same advice you give- parent him like you would any other child. My son's condition is genetic and I'm the carrier so guilt played a huge role early on in our relationship. The advice not to let that affect how we parented helped prevent a lot of issues later in life. Just once he has said to me "It's your fault I'm this way". I pointed out that I also gave him a lot of good traits and without the one bad trait he might have ended up a totally different person without all his other wonderful gifts. He's never brought it up again. He's now 11 and has taken responsibility for taking all his own meds and managing his condition. I don't think he'd have gotten to this point if we'd guilt-parented and babied him.

I also read a ton of parenting books and, being a fairly literal person, got bogged down in trying to follow them exactly. My mother gave me the best advice- trust yourself. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. So, I never let them cry it out. It felt wrong (to me) but I didn't co-sleep because the data on co-sleeping and SIDS is scary. My 3 are all still pretty little but they haven't robbed any liquor stores yet so we may be onto something. Oh, yeah, we don't spank. It doesn't feel right.

[Micah]

I co-slept. Not from the start because I listened to everyone telling me "You'll never get him out of your bed!" "You're making a rod for your own back!" etc, etc. I co-slept from about two months of age. From birth till i put him in bed with me, he wouldn't sleep more than half an hour on his own! So that was nearly two months of virtually no sleep for me! The clincher for me was when I laid down on my back on the couch with him on my tummy. We both slept for four hours. I think he was just as sleep deprived as I was!

He still didn't sleep well, but when we co-slept i got about four or five hours sleep per night instead of the one or two I was getting when I tried to get him to sleep on his own. Still not enough sleep, but it made me able to function. From sleeping with me, he transferred to a little bassinet thing on a rocker beside the bed, then by about a year old he was in his own cot. Never had a problem with him getting into bed with us since. He was a colicy, clingy baby who NEEDED to be close to me.

I have a similar story to Latraviata's grandmother one, only it wasn't a grandparent. Some friends of my parents came to visit, to see the baby. They're very crunchy, alternative parents. Attatchment parenting, unschooling, etc. They took one look at me, my crying baby and my complete mess of a house and immediately took over. The father took my son for a four hour! walk in a sling. The mother very gently directed me to bed and shut the door. When I woke up, son was bright eyed and happy, my house was spotless and I'd had four hours completely uninterupted sleep. Those people saved my life I think, because I was on the verge of a complete breakdown. They were no relation to me, but they took nearly five hours out of their own schedule to help someone.

[Evilbad]

Never used any books about this sort of thing, just went with my gut.

I knew hitting wasn't right. I used a lot of redirection. Not talking, just "No, we don't play with X, lets go do Y!". Didn't really take no for an answer, just kind of did it without really giving him a chance to object to playing with blocks vs. climbing in the oven. Once he was old enough, I'd say "That's hot, we don't touch" and move him away and distract him with something else.

Also made sure that he had a lot of time to run and play because that's what is appropriate for a small child. A tired kid is a well behaved kid.

Thing is, we only had the one so it was easy for us to be on our game with him and tag team where needed but, really, it's just about recognizing cues and realizing that your tiny tyrant isn't really out to rule the world, just figure out how it works.

Providing structure and discipline is totally doable without resorting to violence.

[EmmieJ]

Other than What to Expect During the First Year (or whatever it's called), I did not use any parenting books.

I did spank a few times when he was two or three, but it was awful for both of us and I decided - NO MORE! So I found other ways to encourage the behaviors I wanted. I was far from perfect, and there were times when I lost my temper and yelled, but I did not resort to hitting, swatting, slapping, spanking, or telling him he was bad.

I see someone else mentioned burning off your child's energy. Yes -- that was critical for my son. He had and has tons of energy. When he was about four, I started using star charts to encourage different behaviors. He could earn stars by doing different things (putting toys away, playing nicely with the cat, getting into his car seat without any hassles). If he reached a certain number of stars by week's end - he got a reward. Those charts would be in use for a month or two, but after that, the behavior would usually be ingrained and the chart would go away, only to reappear when different issues would arise. The trick is finding out what motivates your child and tailoring your techniques to fit.

The results: 16 years old next month, getting ready to start driver's training, honors student, part of a college prep program that demands he give up many Saturdays and six weeks during the summer, and is self-motivated. I do not need to stand over him and watch him do homework. I trust him to be out on his own without a chaperone. He does after school sports. He is respectful and it's usually me who gets in trouble for cursing, not him. He is thoughtful of others. He rarely talks back, and when it happens, it usually means he's tired, hungry, or both.

I strongly believe that a parent never needs to spank or otherwise raise their hand to their child.

[cindyluvs24]

My son had an ear infection that seemed to last from age 1 1/2 to 3. The only way we got sleep and were able to function was to let him sleep in our bed. It was just easier at the time. Once the ear infections and pneumonia and colds stopped at 3, he went to his own room "because I'm a very big boy. I have underwear! See?" I'm happy to report that his ears are fine and he is now a college freshman and sleeps in his own bed. Of course, now we have a part Leonberger, part Newfoundland mutt that comes up on the bed at dawn.

[Evilbad]

As for the cosleeping thing? We didn't. But not because I care about whether or not he'd ever leave my bed. We just didn't sleep well together. Not everybody does, so don't force it. I know a lot of people have success with it, but it's not a one-size fits all thing. My son was the cuddliest cuddle bug ever, but when it was time to sleep, give him his space and let him alone, woman.

My point being, just find what works for you and your kids.

[EmmieJ]

Yet...they did not cry themselves to sleep. I remember putting a whole lot of miles on the bentwood rocker I had snuggling a cranky infant and toddler.

When I had my child, I was 36. I knew he was the only one I would ever have. So I admit, I rocked him to sleep for probably the first nine months of his life. I wanted to bottle up that feeling of having him tucked against my, the peacefulness of the darkened room, his breathing slowing into sleepy rhythm, the scent of his little head. It was as much for me as for him, and I've never regretted it.

I agree with the advice, go with what your heart tells you is right. You as the parent will know yourself and your child best. You are really the ultimate expert. Lots of great parenting books out there, lots of good advice, but in the end, do what feels the most right for you and your child.

[cindyluvs24]

We never spanked. I did, however, give him a potch, as in a potch on the tuchis. For you non-Jews, its a Yiddish term. Its a weak little smack, more to get their attention. Spanking a'la lori is more of a personal power struggle between you and the kid. Nor did I feel that he was purposely testing my authority or inviting Satan into the house.. He simply wanted to go over to the edge of the platform and say hi to the subway as it came into the station. Luckily, he was easily distracted as in "We can sit here and wave and blow kisses." I also never ended my sentences in that falsetto "Okaaay?" If you indicate that he has a choice, don't punish him when he chooses the "wrong" thing. I also pointed out when he did the right thing. Catch 'em being good, as they say. We also hugged him a lot. And tickled him. Just because we could. He's in college now and taller than I am. (now I feel old. )

[Hane]

Back around 1970, when I was (briefly) an elementary ed major, I admired the work of Haim Ginott, who advocated speaking to children with respect. More recently, I've enjoyed Mary Pipher's "Reviving Ophelia" and "The Shelter of Each Other," which, while not child-rearing books, contain a good deal of content on the characteristics of successful families.

Fun anecdote from my son-in-law: When he and his siblings were little, one day they were running around and being rowdy in the house. Their grandfather, who was watching them for the day, warned them, "Cut that out or I'll go get the strap!" The grandfather had never laid a finger on any of the kids (and they knew he never would), so my SIL thought he meant that he'd strap them into a chair to keep them from running around.

I exclaimed, "Success! You grew up not even knowing the concept of corporal punishment!"