Nice fundys?

[demgirl]

Thoughtful... you are just so damn...well.... thoughtful! I think what you said is absolutely perfect.

[nuri]

Annie's perspective is one that I get behind a lot -- particuarly for the younger, well written set. I hope beyond hope that as they grow older, the introspection they show goes further. And if a little gentle prodding is written in the comments helps, I'll be happy to read them and maybe write a few of those comments.

On the other hand? The unrepentant child abusers? I have no use for them. I don't even really like reading them, because when I get angry, the snark just isn't there anymore.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah, I agree that the beliefs are dangerous, regardless of the wrapping.

On reflection, I think it would be better to describe the fundies whose blogs I frequent as my 'soap opera' fundies, rather than my 'pet' fundies. I am engaged with their lives and cheer them on when they seem to be thinking their way out, and boo and hiss if they are mean to their children - just the way I do with some of the characters on Eastenders or Coronation Street.... :mrgreen:

[Mompom]

I also see many of the practicing fundies as victims, regardless of age, and would celebrate any of them leaving that garbage behind and changing.

I guess, to me, it's a bit like seeing a fear-aggressive dog. I may be sympathetic to the fact that the dog was made that way by his upbringing or a reaction to bad things, but I still know that he is dangerous.

And, if I see that desensitization and training is changing that dog's behavior, and that he is becoming gentle, I'm happy for him and the people and animals around him.

In the meantime, though, the dog, and the fundies, are still dangerous.

And the fundy's sweet facades are like the aggressive dog's owner telling hundreds of people daily "Oh, he's so sweet -- come pet him!" so they can get mauled.

OK, so I milked that simile to death -- sorry. :)

I agree with both of you. With any fundie friends I have, there is always a guard up. Be friendly, be supportive, be encouraging, but beware.

And Molly. She was amazing. Exactly the kind of person, I'm talking about. A complete 180. And she let us all watch it. Seriously. She gave me hope!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I guess my question is just what is so enticing or attractive about the so-called "nice" fundies.

If it's the lifestyle, well, you can live like that (neo-agrarian, old-timey dresses, preferring modest clothing as your style, cooking everything from scratch, keeping TV out of the house, whatever it is) WITHOUT being fundamentally religious.

I'll admit I've gotten some nice ideas from some fundie blogs, and even had give and take normal conversations with some of them over practical homemaking or homeschooling tips, I've admired their gardens and asked advice, but none of that is fundamentally religious. There are atheist leftist homesteaders out there. You can have the wonderful "community of women teaching younger women" thing without all the religion. You can set a "monastic" type strict learning schedule for yourself and be into self-discipline without all the religion.

If the attraction is to the idea that it must be nice to never need to question, to know the answer on pure faith alone, and to know that your life path is pretty much mapped out for you in your family and community, or heck - to live under a benevolent dictator for that matter, I'm sure everyone feels an attraction to that from time to time but at least for me, the realization that I wouldn't be able to choose the wonderful "strict absolute rules" that decide everything for me and guarantee me a place in the machine is the turn-off that snaps me back to reality.

I found a lot of the blogs through homeschooling discussion. So I'd find myself admiring some blog, or getting (and giving!!) advice on some aspect of study methods or recipes or whatever it is, and think wow, it must be nice to study there at a particular SOTDRT, but then I come back to reality and realize that the content of what they are using their flash cards to teach is either completely meaningless to me or worse yet complete objective nonsense possibly shot through with hate on top of it. (It's interesting to me how so many of the homeschooling chat people assumed that homeschooling was something specifically Christian, and yet... so many non-Christian people seem to buy into that idea as well.)

...all this is in addition to the points that thoughtful and others have already raised about the people attempting to push their agenda onto others.

[nuri]

I also think that FJ has a different definition of fundie than most places and the general populus, and I think that causes some of the disagreements here. Where I come from, fundie isn't the exclusive domain of ATI, IFB, Pearl-type child abusers, but of people with a very conservative, fairly rigid religious belief. Closer to our fundie-lite term, extremist the modifer to that turn it towards how we use fundie here.

I grew up in a conservative suburb, where there's a bank or a church on every streetcorner, and a fledgling conservative megachurch, that looked down on the (rather large) catholic community in the area that I grew up in. I've known lots of people that before FJ, I would easily term fundie that would write blogs similar to the single and young married women (if they wrote blogs). They are the sort to read other conservative groups while maintaining discernment on things like hitting their children with plumbing line, but would like more of their values expressed in the mainstream.

It still seems odd to me, knowing people like that, and hearing them called fundies, and then having a far more insidious definition here. Does anyone else have this problem?

[fundies_like_zombies]

My hypothesis is that many, many people who 'become' fundie as young adults, tend to be people from quite troubled backgrounds, with low self-esteem and a sense of having messed life up, and consequently they are particularly attracted by the promises of family, community and happiness that can come from following 'God's Plan' as it is touted by the fundie church in general. Although these people can behave atrociously, I see many of them as victims too, and that is what draws me back again and again to sites like this and to blogs like theirs.

Do alot of people become fundys as young adults? Even if their family aren't involved?

Guess with the internet they can find all the info and support they want now.

Is fundyness something that people with messed up lives go for? So if someone had a happy home life and nice supporting parents they wouldn;t become a fundy.

[Mompom]

Do alot of people become fundys as young adults? Even if their family aren't involved?

Guess with the internet they can find all the info and support they want now.

Is fundyness something that people with messed up lives go for? So if someone had a happy home life and nice supporting parents they wouldn;t become a fundy.

I've guess I've known a few fundies who came from more mainstream families. They usually say things like, "My parents were C and E type of Christians or my parents went to church on Sunday but had a meaningless liturgy and lived no different than anyone else the rest of the week." But it seems like more people I know who are fundies came from some kind of dysfunctional background (abuse, alcoholism) or dysfunctional in their definition (slept around a lot, partied, etc). Is that just me?

[lilwriter85]

Do alot of people become fundys as young adults? Even if their family aren't involved?

Guess with the internet they can find all the info and support they want now.

Is fundyness something that people with messed up lives go for? So if someone had a happy home life and nice supporting parents they wouldn;t become a fundy.

I have wondered about people who become fundies as young adults. Michelle Duggar is sort of a good example. She grew up in a family that wasn't really religious and somehow JimBob and others sort of took advantage of confusion she had. I think Michelle probably had a good normal secular family life but maybe thought something was messing from her life. From what I've read Michelle's family never became fundie but were ok with her being one even though they didn't agree with the lifestyle.

I have seen a couple of bloggers who became fundie mostly out of pressure from their husbands. One good example was Jessica from Idaho with her douche husband Chad. Jessica grew up in a mainstream Christian family with one sister and she meet Chad as a young teen and I think her puppy love was the force that made her drink the Kool-Aid.

[Guest Anonymous]

Do alot of people become fundys as young adults? Even if their family aren't involved?

Guess with the internet they can find all the info and support they want now.

Is fundyness something that people with messed up lives go for? So if someone had a happy home life and nice supporting parents they wouldn;t become a fundy.

Well, I'm just speaking from my own experience of the blogs and forums I have read, but there are quite a few I can think of, including Molly Aley (fundie parents, abusive dad, wild teenage years, raped as teen, jumped headlong into marriage with fundie sweetheart and away she went...), Anna T (secular Jew, absentee Dad, physically abused by first boyfriend, then jumped headlong into own hybrid Jewish/fundie lifestyle; Michelle Coffee Catholic (mixed-up insecure childhood, bullied about size issues, launched young adult self into fundie lifestyle and moved across to UK to marry and live out new lifestyle).

I'm not saying that all people with messed up lives go for fundie lifestyles, or that all fundie converts have a broken past, but there does seem to be a correlation that is interesting to explore.

For my own part, I've never been a fundie, but as a lonely teenager, moved to a new area at a time of stress in the family, I was attracted to the seemingly sparkly happy lifestyle of the local evangelical Christian church and I became sucked in slowly, and took on some of the unpleasant beliefs incrementally, until I started to reevaluate things in my early twenties.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Well, you gotta admit that if you're feeling that something is missing from your life, or you are just unsure of yourself and where to go, fundamentalist religion certainly provides one answer that removes some of that uncertainty or responsibility. Depending on how it's presented, it can seem like a nice package - you won't need to make any decisions, because the exact proper way to live is all spelled out for you without any pesky grey areas, and it comes with a warm loving home full of perfectly behaved children on top of it.

For one example apart from Christian fundies, just go look at various Baal Teshuva sites - not only sites for people still committed, but also places where people who tried the whole BT thing and then fell out of it again post. People are definitely lured in by the image of a happy loving family a lot of the time. If only you give up everything to do nothing but religion for the rest of your life and shelter your kids from all secular influence, you too can have this wonderful family, and your kids won't have any of the uncertainty you did, they'll be pure.

I think that can be a powerful lure even for people from more or less "ordinary" home lives - surely people who grew up without much family close atmosphere at all might be drawn in even stronger, plus if you add in a desire to ensure that any kids they might have won't "make the same mistakes I did" and end up miserable.

anniec nails what I'm getting at too, in the end of her post just above.

[emmiedahl]

It's good to be nice, as in 'pleasant to be around'. I generally like being around nice people and I think that I am generally nice by that definition. But it's not the be-all, end-all of morality.

If you are a nice person who wants to take away the rights of others, then you are still a moral fail. Lots of slaveowners were probably nice, but they were still evil in at least one way. There were probably nice Nazis, and nice KKK members. We know for a fact that many serial killers and child molesters are nice. Being polite and inoffensive in public does not mean that the rest of the world should adopt your moral code.

Unfortunately, it woos people to their lifestyle because there is so much rudeness and unpleasantness in our culture. We have to train our children to see 'niceness' as one virtue among many, a virtue that is not as important as tolerance and others.

[Guest Anonymous]

The thing that attracted me was the idea of agape or unconditional love, which was something I didn't feel I had experienced at home. Ironically, looking back, I can't think of a place in the world where there are more conditions placed on getting love and acceptance, but its not like that at first and as an insecure youngster it was wonderful to think I had found a perfect family to join at a time when the rest of the world was quite shaky. And yeah, my home was in many ways 'ordinary' - we were just a large family going through some stresses, so there wasn't the 1 on 1 relationship that I craved. Add abuse or extreme poverty into the mix and the lure might have been even stronger.

[maybeizfundie]

I also think that FJ has a different definition of fundie than most places and the general populus, and I think that causes some of the disagreements here. Where I come from, fundie isn't the exclusive domain of ATI, IFB, Pearl-type child abusers, but of people with a very conservative, fairly rigid religious belief. Closer to our fundie-lite term, extremist the modifer to that turn it towards how we use fundie here.

I think this is something worth considering. I was pondering the same thing but unsure how to bring it up without being viewed as trolling or something.

Originally "fundamentalist" referred to a pretty short list of core theological beliefs, that don't touch on social issues particularly, nor provide any sort of list of lifestyle commandments (beards, skirts vs pants, music choices, college, etc) such as those that ATI have.

And I'm aware of fundamentalist Christians who oppose the Pearls, and practice attachment parenting and non-punitive parenting.

And others who may hold personal beliefs about morality but aren't intrested in legislating the rest of the world into them.

I have wondered of those who hold those beliefs would simply be viewed by FJ as fundy-lite?

[zcccrv]

I'm not sure where it comes from but I have this completely irrational need to believe that some of these people are really good people. I'm not just talking charming, polite, carefree, cute... I'm talking someone who I could admire. That's probably part of the reason I continue to follow some of them. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a fundie, it can be a deeply religious person. I'll take it.

For example, I was totally charmed by Diane from TomatoSoupCake. I still think she has some very admirable qualities about her and some I lack. But after reading about a short conversation she had with her daughter on the blog I realised that once again "NO, that's not great people as much as I would want it". They have experienced something beneficial to them, I don't remember what it was, and of course contributed it to god. Amalia said something like: "Those people who don't believe in god, they are dumb right mom?" Diane was obviously proud of this statement because she repeated it on the blog in a joyous manner. I don't remember the exact word (dumb, stupid...?) but I'm not exagerating. I was offended and disappointed and have to continue my search for the Good Fundie as much as my mind tells me it's completely silly. :shhh:

[fundies_like_zombies]

I was suprised by some of the blogs. I thought the girls would be nice but kinda dim. Sort of permanent children.

Some blogs are written well tho' and the bloggers seem intelligent.

The tomatosoup one posted on old fj didn't she?

I kinda feel bad when i read the blogs like I should be better and like they are an example all home and family and caring.

[zcccrv]

Yeah, Diane posted quite a few times. She was always very gracious and kind. FJians wanted to buy her kids Christmas presents because she was in a financial rut and they did. She was very happy and thankful.

Don't get sucked up into the idealistic picture they paint. I know it can be very hard though.

[fundies_like_zombies]

Is she fundy though?

If they are nice and polite and friendly it is much easier to think they can't be bad bad compared to the nasty ones who attack people who don't agree with their rules.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I'm not sure where it comes from but I have this completely irrational need to believe that some of these people are really good people. I'm not just talking charming, polite, carefree, cute... I'm talking someone who I could admire. That's probably part of the reason I continue to follow some of them. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a fundie, it can be a deeply religious person. I'll take it.

For example, I was totally charmed by Diane from TomatoSoupCake. I still think she has some very admirable qualities about her and some I lack. But after reading about a short conversation she had with her daughter on the blog I realised that once again "NO, that's not great people as much as I would want it". They have experienced something beneficial to them, I don't remember what it was, and of course contributed it to god. Amalia said something like: "Those people who don't believe in god, they are dumb right mom?" Diane was obviously proud of this statement because she repeated it on the blog in a joyous manner. I don't remember the exact word (dumb, stupid...?) but I'm not exagerating. I was offended and disappointed and have to continue my search for the Good Fundie as much as my mind tells me it's completely silly. :shhh:

I found it quite interesting how Diane/Persuaded stopped posting at Free Jinger after we donated to her and her family around Xmas time last year.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I'm not sure where it comes from but I have this completely irrational need to believe that some of these people are really good people. I'm not just talking charming, polite, carefree, cute... I'm talking someone who I could admire. That's probably part of the reason I continue to follow some of them. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a fundie, it can be a deeply religious person. I'll take it.

For example, I was totally charmed by Diane from TomatoSoupCake. I still think she has some very admirable qualities about her and some I lack. But after reading about a short conversation she had with her daughter on the blog I realised that once again "NO, that's not great people as much as I would want it". They have experienced something beneficial to them, I don't remember what it was, and of course contributed it to god. Amalia said something like: "Those people who don't believe in god, they are dumb right mom?" Diane was obviously proud of this statement because she repeated it on the blog in a joyous manner. I don't remember the exact word (dumb, stupid...?) but I'm not exagerating. I was offended and disappointed and have to continue my search for the Good Fundie as much as my mind tells me it's completely silly. :shhh:

Edited because I don't need to post this twice. Yikes.

[Joykins]

I've guess I've known a few fundies who came from more mainstream families. They usually say things like, "My parents were C and E type of Christians or my parents went to church on Sunday but had a meaningless liturgy and lived no different than anyone else the rest of the week." But it seems like more people I know who are fundies came from some kind of dysfunctional background (abuse, alcoholism) or dysfunctional in their definition (slept around a lot, partied, etc). Is that just me?

Coming from an anything-goes background and ending up in a hot mess can lead a person to seek out a lifestyle/religion that has very rigid and clear boundaries, and a built-in support system. That way the person has a community and a guidebook as how to do things right that they may not be able to determine for themselves or act on alone. That part is understandable. The ugly part is the extra baggage and where you think you need to inflict that way of living on other people who are doing just fine without that kind of support network.

Also there IS such a thing as an authoritarian personality and many people who have authoritarian personalities are followers.

[Guest Anonymous]

I found it quite interesting how Diane/Persuaded stopped posting at Free Jinger after we donated to her and her family around Xmas time last year.

I think she posted for quite a while after that, on all sorts of topics. I went to her blog earlier, prompted by reading this thread, and it looks as though her blogging has tailed off recently too

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah, Diane posted quite a few times. She was always very gracious and kind. FJians wanted to buy her kids Christmas presents because she was in a financial rut and they did. She was very happy and thankful.

Don't get sucked up into the idealistic picture they paint. I know it can be very hard though.

She does seem like a nice person - but she also writes at LAF and she definitely didn't want to talk about that with us.

[fundies_like_zombies]

I think the last time i went to her blog the post said she was thinking of giving it up.

I didn't realise that normal kinda fundys had articles posted on LAF - thought it was a chosen few.

I think I have a fundy obsession - started with the Duggars and Bates but the Amish are interesting too. Basically people how live in a way that i never could.

[Mompom]

I think the last time i went to her blog the post said she was thinking of giving it up.

I didn't realise that normal kinda fundys had articles posted on LAF - thought it was a chosen few.

I think I have a fundy obsession - started with the Duggars and Bates but the Amish are interesting too. Basically people how live in a way that i never could.

From a sociological/psychological standpoint they are fascinating.