Slut-shaming the mother during a christening

[louisa05]

Interestingly, our gospel reading this morning mentioned this:

so yeah... not entirely unbiblical... I'm unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine but other posters' responses indicate that it's grown more nuanced over the years!

Still a shitty thing to do to an individual.

Same gospel in Catholic mass today, but our (visiting) priest used the short form which skipped that part and made no mention of divorce in his homily. The short form did include the passage about looking at a woman with lust which the fundies love to throw around as a reason for modest clothing. Funny that the priest, a Jesuit from India, addressed that passage with no reference to clothes or sin. He pointed out that it is one more way that the gospel calls us to see marriage as an instrument of grace and as being about more than sexual gratification.

[Cran]

Second, the Catholic Church DOES recognize the validity of certain other marriages. For instance if two baptized Christians marry and divorce, then the Catholic Church requests/expects that they will get an annulment for one of them to remarry in the Catholic Church. However, two unbaptized people marrying is only a slight detail to be handled.

It is a bit more complicated than that.

Only a marriage between two baptised people is a sacramental marriage, but that doesn't mean marriages between non-baptised people are automatically non-valid.

If the marriage was conducted under the requirements applying to the people getting married, it would be a marriage according to natural law, so valid but not sacramental and would require an annulment before one party could get married in a Catholic ceremony. But in the case of a former non-believer who wants to get his first marriage annulled in order to get married, the annulment is usually granted with no problem due to the so-called Privilegium Petrinum.

If this privilege does not apply, a valid reason for the invalidity of the first marriage has to be procured.

To illustrate the fucked up mess Catholic marriage law is:

A friend of mine wanted to get married to a women who is Catholic. He had a previous marriage in the DDR, which was, obviously, a civil union, and got divorced some years back. Still, he had to seek annulment for his first marriage because it was contracted under the rules pertaining to him and his wife when they got married (lawful marriage in natural law, non-sacramental). It was granted and the got married after he became baptised (valid and sacramental marriage).

If a Catholic couple decides to get married in a civil union only, this marriage is never valid, banning very rare circumstances, because Catholics are required to follow the precepts of the Church which demands the marriage vows be witnessed by a priest.

[Coconut Flan]

I know there are all kinds of ins and outs. I wasn't trying to write a technical treatise on the subject but merely offer some help in understanding how one person who is divorced can be married in the church and another not.

[lizziesmom]

On the "Catholic Answers" board, I've seen posts from people who wish that priests would "tell it like it is" (i.e., denounce the deceased at funerals if they were "public sinners" and not marry inter-faith couples and the like). Fortunately, this opinion seems to be in the minority, as far as I can tell.

Is this so that the Catholics who want this to happen can feel superior? Frankly the 'holier than thou' attitude of many churchgoers is why I stopped attending church and have little tolerance for organized religion.

[ADoyle90815]

When my niece was baptized, she was part of a group of children who were being baptized, and it was on a Saturday if I remember. It was actually done by a deacon as the priest shortage is pretty bad in my area, and at least, he wasn't an asshole since both sets of my niece's grandparents and one aunt, myself are divorced. He didn't say anything shaming those of us who are divorced, and the part I especially loved was when my niece laughed during the ceremony. Although my niece was baptized, she's not actually being raised Catholic.

[heidi]

I attended a Catholic wedding for a very devout couple and the sermon(?) the priest delivered was very off-putting. He went off on a rant about how only Catholics were truly destined for heaven and that all other Christian religions were wrong and how only Catholics had real marriages and marriages by people of other religions were shams. I was watching a toddler at the time so I used her needing to run around in the foyer to escape.

I was watching the kids of the same family a few years later and we attended a different Catholic church (their parents wanted them to go to church while I was watching them) and the priest went on and on about how even he didn't know if he was going to go to heaven. It was really uncomfortable to listen to. There was something very odd about his delivery. That time around the oldest girl almost fainted when she got communion so we left early.

Fates must be protecting me from crazy priests or something...

[Rescinded and Mended]

I've never been to a Christening where a priest went off-script, but I did attend a wedding and two funerals where it happened. I've reached a point where I seriously believe priests should be vetted before being allowed to officiate at ceremonies. If I ever needed a religious official to preside at a wedding, funeral, Christening, or other religious occasion, I would make sure he/she knew that the following wasn't permitted:

- no shaming of any person's past. If two happy people are choosing to marry at this moment, we don't need to hear about how John had problems with alcohol and Mary is divorced.

- any shameless self-promoting of the officiator's church during the ceremony. This is not about you.

- no mentions of death or hell

- no long-winded side stories about your personal life. Again, not about you.

- asserting that the person/persons being celebrated are worthless without God/Jesus/church in their lives.

- if you find any of the above offensive, I can find someone else to officiate. Seriously, I'd rather pay someone to perform the ceremony than watch you make a jackass out of yourself and ruin the event all because of some misplaced, "Godly" sense of entitlement.

I've said this before, but you would think that a priest would know better. Hell, if I was ordained, I would go into the ceremony thinking what I could say or do that would make the event happier for everyone, and I would certainly have the sense not to try and make it all about myself.

[louisa05]

I've never been to a Christening where a priest went off-script, but I did attend a wedding and two funerals where it happened. I've reached a point where I seriously believe priests should be vetted before being allowed to officiate at ceremonies. If I ever needed a religious official to preside at a wedding, funeral, Christening, or other religious occasion, I would make sure he/she knew that the following wasn't permitted:

- no shaming of any person's past. If two happy people are choosing to marry at this moment, we don't need to hear about how John had problems with alcohol and Mary is divorced.

- any shameless self-promoting of the officiator's church during the ceremony. This is not about you.

- no mentions of death or hell

- no long-winded side stories about your personal life. Again, not about you.

- asserting that the person/persons being celebrated are worthless without God/Jesus/church in their lives.

- if you find any of the above offensive, I can find someone else to officiate. Seriously, I'd rather pay someone to perform the ceremony than watch you make a jackass out of yourself and ruin the event all because of some misplaced, "Godly" sense of entitlement.

I've said this before, but you would think that a priest would know better. Hell, if I was ordained, I would go into the ceremony thinking what I could say or do that would make the event happier for everyone, and I would certainly have the sense not to try and make it all about myself.

I think that most people who regularly attend a parish know what they are getting in a priest. I certainly could tell you which priest in my parish would be likely to go off inappropriately at a wedding or funeral. You don't need to vet them like that if you've been attending their masses. A priest who would go off on a rant at a wedding probably has done the same in many a Sunday morning homily.

Our parish priest was unable to be at our wedding. He did not even suggest a replacement, instead telling us to find someone we knew and liked if possible. We were able to do so and knew exactly what we were getting in terms of personality and preaching.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I think that most people who regularly attend a parish know what they are getting in a priest. I certainly could tell you which priest in my parish would be likely to go off inappropriately at a wedding or funeral. You don't need to vet them like that if you've been attending their masses. A priest who would go off on a rant at a wedding probably has done the same in many a Sunday morning homily.

Our parish priest was unable to be at our wedding. He did not even suggest a replacement, instead telling us to find someone we knew and liked if possible. We were able to do so and knew exactly what we were getting in terms of personality and preaching.

Regarding how well one knows the priest ahead of time, I think that's a fair statement, and I'll admit that I haven't regularly been to a church in quite some time where I knew how the priest behaved at the pulpit. In the wedding I mentioned, the family knew the priest, but he still made it a point to devote most of the sermon to submission and past-shaming of the couple. One funeral involved a priest that didn't know the deceased, and yet he still made it a point to say that the guy was worthless and going to hell unless he had Jesus in his life while he lived. The second funeral involved a priest who knew the family, but because the husband had never attended the church while he lived (only the wife attended), the priest refused to speak at the service because the husband wasn't active in the church. The wife tearfully begged him to officiate, and he finally agreed, but in exchange for $200 - money she didn't have. The woman finally wound up eulogizing her own husband at the funeral. :cry:

I guess I've learned the hard way never to underestimate a priest's ability to speak inappropriately at important events, no matter how well I feel I may know his/her past history and behavior. And at the very least, I still can't help but wonder why some of these men didn't stop to think about good manners and to consider the feelings of the families involved.

But at the same time, I can see your point that trust is also important, and if the priest has a history of speaking with kindness and courtesy, then that's every reason in the world to have him/her perform a ceremony. The priest who officiated at my father's funeral was wonderful - I knew the man, and would have been happy to have him marry me and my husband if he had still been in the country.

I guess my only real point here is that if my poor child ever gets married, he's gonna have his momma bugging him constantly about what will be said during the wedding ceremony. I don't care how he and his mate decide to plan the wedding, but my future obnoxiousness on the subject might put him off marriage for good. :lol:

Sorry for rambling! :wink-kitty:

[louisa05]

Regarding how well one knows the priest ahead of time, I think that's a fair statement, and I'll admit that I haven't regularly been to a church in quite some time where I knew how the priest behaved at the pulpit. In the wedding I mentioned, the family knew the priest, but he still made it a point to devote most of the sermon to submission and past-shaming of the couple. One funeral involved a priest that didn't know the deceased, and yet he still made it a point to say that the guy was worthless and going to hell unless he had Jesus in his life while he lived. The second funeral involved a priest who knew the family, but because the husband had never attended the church while he lived (only the wife attended), the priest refused to speak at the service because the husband wasn't active in the church. The wife tearfully begged him to officiate, and he finally agreed, but in exchange for $200 - money she didn't have. The woman finally wound up eulogizing her own husband at the funeral. :cry:

I guess I've learned the hard way never to underestimate a priest's ability to speak inappropriately at important events, no matter how well I feel I may know his/her past history and behavior. And at the very least, I still can't help but wonder why some of these men didn't stop to think about good manners and to consider the feelings of the families involved.

But at the same time, I can see your point that trust is also important, and if the priest has a history of speaking with kindness and courtesy, then that's every reason in the world to have him/her perform a ceremony. The priest who officiated at my father's funeral was wonderful - I knew the man, and would have been happy to have him marry me and my husband if he had still been in the country.

I guess my only real point here is that if my poor child ever gets married, he's gonna have his momma bugging him constantly about what will be said during the wedding ceremony. I don't care how he and his mate decide to plan the wedding, but my future obnoxiousness on the subject might put him off marriage for good. :lol:

Sorry for rambling! :wink-kitty:

The thing about priests, that a lot of Catholics don't even like to acknowledge, is that they are just regular humans. I taught in a Catholic school for ten years. I ate lunch with them, covered their theology classes for them, was at staff gatherings with them, served on planning committees with them....some are jerks, some are nerds, some are attention whores, some are introverts who hate being in the middle of everything by virtue of their collar, some are really cool. Exactly like everyone else on the planet.

I said as much to a very devout friend a few years ago and she told me I was going to hell for even thinking such a thing and must confess immediately. Our parish priest is one that I worked with. If I confessed such a thing to him, he would probably laugh at me and tell me no absolution is needed for recognizing facts. I knew another one who worked at the school that actually gave the kids an examination of conscience that asked "have I thought or said something negative about a priest?" as if they must confess such a thing. Not one of the cool ones.

[Mela99]

What a jerk.

And I cannot help but think that Pope Francis would have a few choice words for said jerk. And maybe remove him from his parish.

This

[keen23]

I've never been to a Christening where a priest went off-script, but I did attend a wedding and two funerals where it happened. I've reached a point where I seriously believe priests should be vetted before being allowed to officiate at ceremonies. If I ever needed a religious official to preside at a wedding, funeral, Christening, or other religious occasion, I would make sure he/she knew that the following wasn't permitted:

- no shaming of any person's past. If two happy people are choosing to marry at this moment, we don't need to hear about how John had problems with alcohol and Mary is divorced.

- any shameless self-promoting of the officiator's church during the ceremony. This is not about you.

- no mentions of death or hell

- no long-winded side stories about your personal life. Again, not about you.

- asserting that the person/persons being celebrated are worthless without God/Jesus/church in their lives.

- if you find any of the above offensive, I can find someone else to officiate. Seriously, I'd rather pay someone to perform the ceremony than watch you make a jackass out of yourself and ruin the event all because of some misplaced, "Godly" sense of entitlement.

I've said this before, but you would think that a priest would know better. Hell, if I was ordained, I would go into the ceremony thinking what I could say or do that would make the event happier for everyone, and I would certainly have the sense not to try and make it all about myself.

I will never forget a friend's wedding where the priest decided to go rogue. My friend actually goes to church on a regular basis, and had developed a good rapport with the priest. Well, a month before he was going to officiate her wedding, he wound up getting transferred (or whatever it's called in the priestly world) to another country, rather quickly. The new priest was totally old school, and a bit of an asshole, but since she already had the wedding paid for, and invitations out and RSVP'd, she felt she couldn't change her ceremony. The new priest took it upon himself to do the Pearl of Great Price sermon, and mentioned specifically that God would have to be asked to forgive my friend and her husband from living together in sin. Needless to say, this was not the wedding readings and sermons that she had wanted read.

[louisa05]

I will never forget a friend's wedding where the priest decided to go rogue. My friend actually goes to church on a regular basis, and had developed a good rapport with the priest. Well, a month before he was going to officiate her wedding, he wound up getting transferred (or whatever it's called in the priestly world) to another country, rather quickly. The new priest was totally old school, and a bit of an asshole, but since she already had the wedding paid for, and invitations out and RSVP'd, she felt she couldn't change her ceremony. The new priest took it upon himself to do the Pearl of Great Price sermon, and mentioned specifically that God would have to be asked to forgive my friend and her husband from living together in sin. Needless to say, this was not the wedding readings and sermons that she had wanted read.

That is when you say to the new guy, no, thank you. We are calling Father so-and-so that we both know.

That is what we did when our priest told us he would be in India the week of our wedding. Granted, he gave us the space to do that. Generally, any priest in the diocese is allowed to marry you. Doesn't have to be the one assigned to that church.

[GeoBQn]

The only time I heard of someone stopping an inappropriate sermon was one my boss told me about. There was a brother and sister who never married and lived together until the sister died of old age. Her funeral was officiated by a rabbi who didn't know her very well. He gave a long, rambling sermon in which he said that sex was one of the best things in life. At that point, someone intervened and stopped him, because it was pretty obvious that the sister had not had the "best thing in life" for a while, or possibly ever.

[theologygeek]

I'm from a very Catholic family, but my aunt married a divorced man. She was not allowed to be married in the Church, and she cannot/does not receive Communion as she is not in communion with the Church because she is technically an adulteress. I'm sure she really could take the Sacrament if she fought it, but she doesn't.

She should take Communion anyway. I'm divorced and have no problem with taking Communion. There is nothing in the bible that states a divorced person can't have Communion.

As for the priest discussed here, I would have to hear the whole thing in context before forming an opinion. It is very unusual for a priest to talk like that during a Christening.

[micatite]

Huh. Usually I see that fire and brimstone shaming reserved for those of us burning in hell during evangelical funerals. From a Catholic ceremony?? Dude missed his calling didn't he??

I have to say, I was worried about this very thing recently. A neighbor committed suicide and his memorial service was held at a local Baptist church. Fortunately for the widow, who I gather requested a rather 'religion-lite' ceremony since the deceased was not much of a believer (and who definitely did not follow the Baptist line on drinking), the minister was extremely sensitive about dealing with the whole thing.

No (slut or otherwise) shaming of the deceased or any of the parties who showed up to the memorial service. No attempts to church the unchurched in a captive audience. Just a ceremony acknowledging that our community had lost someone and allowing people to express their feelings.

[theologygeek]

I have to say, I was worried about this very thing recently. A neighbor committed suicide and his memorial service was held at a local Baptist church. Fortunately for the widow, who I gather requested a rather 'religion-lite' ceremony since the deceased was not much of a believer (and who definitely did not follow the Baptist line on drinking), the minister was extremely sensitive about dealing with the whole thing.

No (slut or otherwise) shaming of the deceased or any of the parties who showed up to the memorial service. No attempts to church the unchurched in a captive audience. Just a ceremony acknowledging that our community had lost someone and allowing people to express their feelings.

It's very natural to have that brief feeling of panic that a suicide funeral is going to have an insensitive sermon. I have been to two such funerals. Thankfully both priests did excellent jobs with the sermons. But I have to admit, I did hold my breath for a moment. I think the thought crosses many people's minds.