Jahi McMath case in California

[gustava]

It was actually a typo on my part. I meant NOT JWs. And the irony of it isn't lost on me, that I would complain about the post title being misleading for suggesting they might be JWs when my own post was even more misleading in asserting they were JWs.

At this point, my face is pretty red and I'm just wishing I'd kept my mouth shut in the first place. So I'm gonna bow out of the discussion of their religious beliefs and anything related to it (including post titles!) at this point.

Carry on, friends.

As a retired English teacher I can definitely say: Shit happens :mrgreen:

[lilwriter85]

Did this Catholic blogger take her daughter to Lourdes? I used to follow a similar blog, wondering if it is the same one.

I don't recall her taking her daughter to Lourdes. She doesn't have a regular type blog. It is one of those caringbridge sites. I can't remember how I came across the caringbridge site. This blogger lives in Illinois and is married to a police officer. She has an older and a younger son.

[bionicmlle]

So sorry! I meant probably NOT JWs. Missed a word there, which makes all the difference. My apologies. Next time I'll proofread more carefully.

Gawking: I read your post the way you MEANT it so we all louse up! I agree that my choice on post title may not have been the greatest, especially knowing that the convo would likely move away from religious issues to end-of-life discussion which is equally as interesting!

[Cleopatra7]

I heard a radio show on NPR about brain death last week, and a woman called into the show and said that when her son became brain dead in an accident, the doctors bluntly told her that her son was dead, even though the rest of the body was superficially functioning. The woman said that she appreciates this bluntness in hindsight, because it allowed her to make the right decisions to help her move on. I think that the doctors in the Jahi McMath case should have shown the same level of frankness to the family. However, it also seems like these unnamed "religious beliefs" that the family has are what's causing the problem right now. Off the top of my head I can't think of any group that would believe in keeping a corpse alive like this. This isn't remotely like the Terri Schiavo case, and I know that Catholic teachings do not support keeping Jahi "alive." The JW angle makes a lot of sense, especially how the family was able to get a crowd for their cause so quickly.

[medievalist1980]

This is what I don't understand... ok, she can be kept (I hesitate to call it alive) going by machines, but her family knows that she hasn't had food or water in 20+ days. That alone would kill a person, right? She is also not excreting anything. Unless they are looking for an actual magical miracle, she cannot come back from this.

If you are brain dead, can your cells regenerate? I realize this sounds gruesome, but has her body begun breaking down/decaying, even if just at the cellular level?

[lilwriter85]

On the topic of Jehovah Witnesses, I remember a case that happened about 10 years or more in which a JW mother and daughter were in a car accident caused by a drunk driver. The daughter survived, but the mother didn't because the family refused a necessary blood transfusion. The case was covered on Dateline and I remember the drunk driver's defense attorney argued that family was at fault for the mother's death because of refusal of the blood transfusion. I can't remember the outcome, does anyone remember this case?

[J'ean Skirt]

I heard a radio show on NPR about brain death last week, and a woman called into the show and said that when her son became brain dead in an accident, the doctors bluntly told her that her son was dead, even though the rest of the body was superficially functioning. The woman said that she appreciates this bluntness in hindsight, because it allowed her to make the right decisions to help her move on. I think that the doctors in the Jahi McMath case should have shown the same level of frankness to the family. However, it also seems like these unnamed "religious beliefs" that the family has are what's causing the problem right now. Off the top of my head I can't think of any group that would believe in keeping a corpse alive like this. This isn't remotely like the Terri Schiavo case, and I know that Catholic teachings do not support keeping Jahi "alive." The JW angle makes a lot of sense, especially how the family was able to get a crowd for their cause so quickly.

I live in the Bay Area, so this is all local news.

The doctors were frank with the family. In fact, one of the initial complaints to the judge was that the doctors told the family she was "Dead, dead, dead." (CNN link: http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/20/health/california-girl-brain-dead/, but it was heavily reported in the local papers, too.) One of the complaints of the family is that the doctors were so blunt.

As I was looking for links to post here, I found that less than an hour ago a judge ruled that they can remove Jahi from the hospital. (SJ Mercury News link: http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24840744/jahi-mcmath-mom-can-remove-brain-dead-daughter) They are giving full responsibility to the mother "once custody is transferred." The judge is still refusing to force the hospital to perform surgery on her.

[J'ean Skirt]

If you are brain dead, can your cells regenerate? I realize this sounds gruesome, but has her body begun breaking down/decaying, even if just at the cellular level?

I believe that as long as the cells are getting oxygen (i.e., breathing and circulation are supported) they will keep doing their cellular job. But longer term some controls will break down and there will be slow death of the cells.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/QA ... 60221.html answered a lot of questions for me.

Another thing I saw was the claim that there was no blood circulation in the brain and that was part of the declaration of death. The cells are going to start to break down but they may not "decay" as a lot of decay is about outside activity (bacteria, fungi, bugs, etc). In a sterile area (like the brain) the breakdown will take less time. I think. It's kinda all complicated and I don't really understand the biology of death very well.

[medievalist1980]

I believe that as long as the cells are getting oxygen (i.e., breathing and circulation are supported) they will keep doing their cellular job. But longer term some controls will break down and there will be slow death of the cells.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/QA ... 60221.html answered a lot of questions for me.

Another thing I saw was the claim that there was no blood circulation in the brain and that was part of the declaration of death. The cells are going to start to break down but they may not "decay" as a lot of decay is about outside activity (bacteria, fungi, bugs, etc). In a sterile area (like the brain) the breakdown will take less time. I think. It's kinda all complicated and I don't really understand the biology of death very well.

Thanks, Bisky. That makes sense that the process will be extremely slow and is being delayed by the continual pumping of oxygen. If she hasn't eaten or had anything to drink for 22 days, I imagine she no longer even looks like herself.

They keep saying the procedure was more than just a tonsillectomy, but I'm not sure I've see the specifics of what she was having done. Has anyone?

[ADoyle90815]

Here's an update about this case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/talk ... e-21407681

I'm also one who thinks that this is a case of parents not willing to accept that their child is dead. I do think the family of Teri Schaivo are just using this case as an excuse to get media attention, as there's no Catholic teaching that says that a brain dead person should be kept on life support. As far as I know, when someone is brain dead and they're a registered organ donor and the family allows it, hospitals can harvest organs if it's relatively soon after the death of the brain. This girl's family doesn't seem like the type of family who would allow organ donation, but with all of the delays, it would probably be too late for those organs to be donated.

[lilwriter85]

Thanks, Bisky. That makes sense that the process will be extremely slow and is being delayed by the continual pumping of oxygen. If she hasn't eaten or had anything to drink for 22 days, I imagine she no longer even looks like herself.

They keep saying the procedure was more than just a tonsillectomy, but I'm not sure I've see the specifics of what she was having done. Has anyone?[/quote]

It was mentioned that she had sleep apnea. She might have had a uvulopalatopharyngoplasty aka uppp surgery done. A uppp surgery involves removing the tonsils, adenoids and other parts of the throat tissue. A relative of mine is a nurse for an ENT surgeon. In the past few years, two of our uncles were diagnosed with SA and uppp surgery was discussed with them, but both backed out of it and opted to do cpap and oxygen. My nurse cousin said that uppp surgery is debated quite a bit because some people say that their conditions don't improve after having the surgery done.

[J'ean Skirt]

Thanks, Bisky. That makes sense that the process will be extremely slow and is being delayed by the continual pumping of oxygen. If she hasn't eaten or had anything to drink for 22 days, I imagine she no longer even looks like herself.

They keep saying the procedure was more than just a tonsillectomy, but I'm not sure I've see the specifics of what she was having done. Has anyone?

The hospital is legally prohibited from releasing any information about her treatment without her permission (HIPAA). Because she is a minor, her parents could probably authorize it. However, they seem to be unwilling to give the hospital permission to release records. Everything we know is coming from her family.

[halfheartedheroine]

On the topic of Jehovah Witnesses, I remember a case that happened about 10 years or more in which a JW mother and daughter were in a car accident caused by a drunk driver. The daughter survived, but the mother didn't because the family refused a necessary blood transfusion. The case was covered on Dateline and I remember the drunk driver's defense attorney argued that family was at fault for the mother's death because of refusal of the blood transfusion. I can't remember the outcome, does anyone remember this case?

Found it! The trial was in 1998. The driver was charged with gross vehicular manslaughter of the mother, charged with causing injury to the daughter, and two drunk driving charges. He was acquitted of murder of the mother, because the mother was deemed to have some responsibility by refusing the blood transfusion (but not all). The article states that there had been no legal precedent for this case before in California, though a similar situation in Louisiana occurred months before and resulted in murder charges for the driver (I don't exactly understand what "assignments of error" refers to, though, so if I'm terribly off base with the legal interpretation, please correct me!)

The court case mentioned originally: articles.latimes.com/1998/dec/19/local/me-55523

The Louisiana case: leagle.com/decision/19981487720So2d767_11269

[Stephanie66]

It was actually a sleep apnea surgery, so they removed the tonsils, adenoids, part of the upper soft palate and uvula.

It wasn't a "simple tonsillectomy", but at the same time, she shouldn't have died from it.

[sparkles]

They keep saying the procedure was more than just a tonsillectomy, but I'm not sure I've see the specifics of what she was having done. Has anyone?

I know that several articles mentioned that the surgery was to help Jahi's sleep apnea. Mr. Sparkles has severe sleep apnea and had surgery as a last resort a couple of years ago, so I'm going to take a guess and say that Jahi had something similar. Mr S had already had his tonsils removed but otherwise it involved removing his uvula, correcting a deviated septum and reshaping his palate. It was considered to be completely routine, ambulatory surgery with an uncomfortable recovery and few complications but because Mr. S's apnea is so bad he always has to spend the night in the hospital for anything that involves anesthesia. Otherwise it really WAS routine. Not that mistakes don't happen but I get the feeling that there may have been some underlying, undetected issues that caused Jahi's death. Unfortunately, since the family won't allow the hospital to comment--which always raises an eyebrow IMO--it's all just speculation.

ETA Stephanie beat me to it!

ETA2 and so did ill writer. Damn, typing in the ipad is so slow...

PS the surgery ended up not really helping Mr. S much. He still relies in the CPAP and even that can't get him through the night.

[lilwriter85]

Found it! The trial was in 1998. The driver was charged with gross vehicular manslaughter of the mother, charged with causing injury to the daughter, and two drunk driving charges. He was acquitted of murder of the mother, because the mother was deemed to have some responsibility by refusing the blood transfusion (but not all). The article states that there had been no legal precedent for this case before in California, though a similar situation in Louisiana occurred months before and resulted in murder charges for the driver (I don't exactly understand what "assignments of error" refers to, though, so if I'm terribly off base with the legal interpretation, please correct me!)

The court case mentioned originally: articles.latimes.com/1998/dec/19/local/me-55523

The Louisiana case: leagle.com/decision/19981487720So2d767_11269

Thank you for finding this.

[Ralar]

Talk about cruel parents! Let the poor girl go peacefully.

"Jahi is the Avestan language name of Zoroastrianism's demoness of "lasciviousness." As a hypostatic entity, Jahi is variously interpreted as "hussy," "rake," "libertine," "courtesan" and "one who leads a licentious life." Her standard epithet is "the Whore.""

Talk about mean: they named the child "the Wore!"

[Ralar]

"I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Nailah Winkfield told ABC’s "Good Morning America." "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' " I understand grief, but Ms. Winkfield has lost touch with reality.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-starving-california-hospital-mother-article-1.1563261

[medievalist1980]

Thank you everyone for the information about surgeries for sleep apnea!

[lilwriter85]

"I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Nailah Winkfield told ABC’s "Good Morning America." "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' " I understand grief, but Ms. Winkfield has lost touch with reality.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-starving-california-hospital-mother-article-1.1563261

I agree with you and I find that quote to be a bit jarring.

[Stephanie66]

Jahi is a male Swahili name that means dignity. I found that a few places, but here is one.

http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Jahi/m

[fullmetalheart]

Weirdass complications can happen from any surgery in addition to the "usual" ones. I was lucky that I escaped my last one with just urinary retention problems (I had to wear a cath for a month. Ugh. That sucked) and pneumonia, but those are pretty par for course. That said, it could have been a really weird, random complication, the poor girl could have had some undiagnosed stuff going on, the surgery could have been botched somehow, etc. It doesn't change a thing that a dead girl is now not being permitted to pass peacefully.

[Stephanie66]

Won't she eventually starve to death?

[Arete]

I agree with you and I find that quote to be a bit jarring.

Sounds like mom has had a psychotic break. :(

[salex]

Weirdass complications can happen from any surgery in addition to the "usual" ones. I was lucky that I escaped my last one with just urinary retention problems (I had to wear a cath for a month. Ugh. That sucked) and pneumonia, but those are pretty par for course. That said, it could have been a really weird, random complication, the poor girl could have had some undiagnosed stuff going on, the surgery could have been botched somehow, etc. It doesn't change a thing that a dead girl is now not being permitted to pass peacefully.

exactly-- I had an aunt who went in for a hysterectomy and never came home... pretty common surgery. Hers was related to post surgery infection, but it can be anything. Hub's uncle, who was a surgeon, told him never get cut open unless it is the last best option, because all surgeries are inherently risky.