Jahi McMath case in California

[France Nolan]

^ I live on LI, and I've never heard of this place. I looked at the website and no way does it look equipped to care for the body.

[starfish]

My understanding is that the doctors are prohibited by ethical codes from treating a dead body. They are not going to do any procedures on the corpse of Jahi McMath and no federal judge can make them do it. I know a judge has ordered mediation, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish. The family is in a serious state of denial. The family also seems to lack a basic understanding of biology. Yeah, I could sneak into a freshman biology lab and hook up a dead frog to electrodes and make it jump around. Guess what---it's not alive.

This is just getting gruesome. This reminds me of the movie Psycho. Norman Bates had trouble accepting his mother's death also.

Any sympathy I had for the family vaporized several weeks ago. This is costing about $4000 a day and there are living patients who need the

time and attention from the hospital.

My sympathy and sorrow are with the memory of Jahi, that child with the sweet smile who was lost too soon.

[Cone]

How long might that take on a child, before the heart stops beating while on a respirator?

I noticed the Schiavo family has jumped on the bandwagon--my cynical guess is their speaking gigs had fallen off and this seemed like a way to get back in the news.

The thing I find odd is that Terri Schiavo was in a coma and not brain dead like Jahi, so why is her family supporting this? :think:

Also the meaning of the name Jahi is very interesting and might be a clue to what religion her family practices. I tried reading about it but I have no idea... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi

[salex]

The thing I find odd is that Terri Schiavo was in a coma and not brain dead like Jahi, so why is her family supporting this? :think:

Because it is all the same to them. And gets their name in the news again.

[sparkles]

^ I live on LI, and I've never heard of this place. I looked at the website and no way does it look equipped to care for the body.

I'm on LI as well and also never heard of it. It looks like the rehab facility is separate from the place shown in the photo though, but part of the same organization. The website is vague, to say the least--focusing more on the founder than on any services--and I really haven't been able to find much info anywhere else. It doesn't look like it's been open very long so I think speculating that this is a publicity thing isn't far off the mark.

This is a horribly sad no-win situation and the thought that someone would exploit the family for personal gain makes me stabby. I really hope that's not the case here but the cynic in me says otherwise.

[nausicaa]

The thing I find odd is that Terri Schiavo was in a coma and not brain dead like Jahi, so why is her family supporting this? :think:

Also the meaning of the name Jahi is very interesting and might be a clue to what religion her family practices. I tried reading about it but I have no idea... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi

I've never heard of Zoroastrians/Parsees having religious conflicts with any type of medical care so I looked it up. This link was really interesting:

http://info.kyha.com/documents/CG-Zoroastrian.pdf

Of course it doesn't explicitly address euthanasia issues, but most of the information seems to point to there not being a problem with terminating care in a case like this.

My guess is that the parents just liked the sound of that name and are not Zoroastrians. My gut says religion doesn't play a role in this. It is too good a spin for the story, and the media would be all over that if there were even a whiff of it. I think it's a very sad family having trouble accepting that their child is gone, combined with a lack of medical knowledge and distrust of the hospital, and a shameless lawyer out to get all he can.

[carebear]

If Jahi remains hooked up to the machine and "lives".. will the family benefit financially (Jahi's Disability/SSI) from it?

[SpicyCat]

This is a really sad story, but does pretty much boil down to Mom can't let go. As a parent I can understand, but it's not helping anything or anyone. As for her long-term care, from what I understand from other boards, generally in a brain death situation they don't last forever; cardiac arrest usually occurs within 22 days, though at least one lasted as long as six months. So in the end, nature will fix the problem one way or the other.

[Coconut Flan]

If Jahi remains hooked up to the machine and "lives".. will the family benefit financially (Jahi's Disability/SSI) from it?

Really no. If they were to file, she would be considered institutionalized and all payments except for a tiny allowance for personal needs would go to the institution.

I hope nature takes it's course sooner rather than later.

[France Nolan]

I'm on LI as well and also never heard of it. It looks like the rehab facility is separate from the place shown in the photo though, but part of the same organization. The website is vague, to say the least--focusing more on the founder than on any services--and I really haven't been able to find much info anywhere else. It doesn't look like it's been open very long so I think speculating that this is a publicity thing isn't far off the mark.

This is a horribly sad no-win situation and the thought that someone would exploit the family for personal gain makes me stabby. I really hope that's not the case here but the cynic in me says otherwise.

I couldn't find any information regarding the kind of licensing they have. In NYS a facility needs specific licensing to care for ventilator dependent patients nor does it reveal anything about staffing. You would think that a legitimate organization would have some MDs, RNs, social workers, occupational/physical/speech therapists, and other allied healthcare professionals listed on their website.

I also can't imagine that any hospital on Long Island will be willing to provide healthcare for the body. The closest major hospital to the facility is SUNY Stony Brook, which is a public teaching hospital. I highly doubt that a public hospital will provide healthcare and surgeries for a cadaver. Stony Brook is home to Suffolk County's children's hospital. Nassau County's children's hospital is Cohen's, which is part of North Shore -Long Island Jewish. Again, doubtful that Cohen's or North Shore LIJ will provide care. The Catholic medical system on LI does not have a children's hospital.

Not only do I suspect that this is a publicity stunt on the part of the facility, but I think it's a publicity grab by Jahi's family. I don't doubt that they love her/grieve for her, but something about this pings my scam meter.

[Alice_Fraggle]

I couldn't find any information regarding the kind of licensing they have. In NYS a facility needs specific licensing to care for ventilator dependent patients nor does it reveal anything about staffing. You would think that a legitimate organization would have some MDs, RNs, social workers, occupational/physical/speech therapists, and other allied healthcare professionals listed on their website.

I also can't imagine that any hospital on Long Island will be willing to provide healthcare for the body. The closest major hospital to the facility is SUNY Stony Brook, which is a public teaching hospital. I highly doubt that a public hospital will provide healthcare and surgeries for a cadaver. Stony Brook is home to Suffolk County's children's hospital. Nassau County's children's hospital is Cohen's, which is part of North Shore -Long Island Jewish. Again, doubtful that Cohen's or North Shore LIJ will provide care. The Catholic medical system on LI does not have a children's hospital.

Not only do I suspect that this is a publicity stunt on the part of the facility, but I think it's a publicity grab by Jahi's family. I don't doubt that they love her/grieve for her, but something about this pings my scam meter.

I agree 100% with the bold. It's a crappy situation for the family, but it breaks my heart for Jahi. She deserves to be treated with respect, and I don't feel like she's getting that.

I think that she'll never be moved - the doctors at the hospital where she is now won't operate on her, and she can't be moved without the operation. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

[moodygirl86]

Talk about cruel parents! Let the poor girl go peacefully.

[sparkles]

She MIGHT be moved but certainly not clear across the country to what seems like a facility that's little more than a grandiose idea, definitely not a place that can give her the level of care they say she needs.

There's nothing I can find in our local media about this facility or the proposed transfer. It looks more and more like a fundraising scheme with each passing minute.

[GawkingToo]

Do you think it might be time to ask the mods to change the post title, since some basic research reveals that they're probably JWs? Even with the question mark, the title seems kind of misleading at this point.

[twinmama]

All of that aside, I feel it is pointless to keep somebody who is brain dead on life support. Jahi isn't in a coma or a vegetative state. Her brain has ceased to function. She will not get better and wake up.

This is what I don't understand... ok, she can be kept (I hesitate to call it alive) going by machines, but her family knows that she hasn't had food or water in 20+ days. That alone would kill a person, right? She is also not excreting anything. Unless they are looking for an actual magical miracle, she cannot come back from this.

[gustava]

Do you think it might be time to ask the mods to change the post title, since some basic research reveals that they're probably JWs? Even with the question mark, the title seems kind of misleading at this point.

Please provide links to sources that support the family is JW.

[France Nolan]

She MIGHT be moved but certainly not clear across the country to what seems like a facility that's little more than a grandiose idea, definitely not a place that can give her the level of care they say she needs.

There's nothing I can find in our local media about this facility or the proposed transfer. It looks more and more like a fundraising scheme with each passing minute.

It's just super bizarre on our end, meaning Long Island's. Here's the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/www.nbli.org

They are deleting comments and blocking people left and right.

[sparkles]

It's just super bizarre on our end, meaning Long Island's. Here's the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/www.nbli.org

They are deleting comments and blocking people left and right.

Well, that's just a giant clusterfuck, innit? It does seem like they have a decent outpatient facility but not one that can handle Jahi's extensive inpatient care. Yeah, they're definitely in this for the publicity. Leeches.

[lilwriter85]

I have been following the story off and on for the past week. I have read articles because Yahoo has put this story up on the top homepage stories. I agree with previous posters, I think it comes down to the fact that family can't let her go and the medical community wants to do the ethical thing. I understand that they are heartbroken, but at the same time I suspect a publicity grab. Yesterday, Terri Schavio was a trending topic on Yahoo because of this story.

The Terri Schiavo case was something that I had mixed feelings on. I was a sophomore in college when that story blew up before she was taken off the feeding tube. At the time, I was unemployed because the business I worked at had closed. I had money saved up so I was basically just going to school that Spring. I had downtime after school and studying, and I got sucked into the story because of CNN and talk radio. I remember feeling really sorry for Terri's parents because they were hurting and to be honest I never got a completely good vibe from Michael Schiavo. I remember the protesters who camped outside the facility were Teri was. There was one day, I watching CNN live and they arrested a protestor who had his kids with him. I think the lesson learned from the Terri Schiavo case was about setting up living wills before it's too late.

I also found that Teri's parents and siblings to be attention whores later on. There was a Catholic blogger who I used to follow whose daughter had some of kind of brain injury after her birth. That blogger's daughter is 18 or 19 now and is severely disabled. The blogger was very devout and pro-life. Her older son once did some kind ,school report about how death row inmates having rights vs. disabled people(can't remember all the specifics). Somehow the blogger's son managed to talk to Teri's mom on the phone for his report. Later on through some research, I found out that Teri's parents would always talk to anyone who sought out their advice.

I'm looking at New Beginnings FB page and some comments against the facility and the family are still up

[starfish]

I read that the Schiavos set up some type of "foundation' after Terri's death. It used 100% of the donations to pay the salaries of the dad and the brother. And accomplished nothing. There's something wrong with them.

[yetanothermeg]

There was a Catholic blogger who I used to follow whose daughter had some of kind of brain injury after her birth. That blogger's daughter is 18 or 19 now and is severely disabled. The blogger was very devout and pro-life. Her older son once did some kind ,school report about how death row inmates having rights vs. disabled people(can't remember all the specifics). Somehow the blogger's son managed to talk to Teri's mom on the phone for his report. Later on through some research, I found out that Teri's parents would always talk to anyone who sought out their advice.

I'm looking at New Beginnings FB page and some comments against the facility and the family are still up

Did this Catholic blogger take her daughter to Lourdes? I used to follow a similar blog, wondering if it is the same one.

[bionicmlle]

Please provide links to sources that support the family is JW.

There is no clear evidence that they are JW and, to me, it is really odd that they reference their "religious beliefs" that have guided their rejection of the idea of brain death. It seems to me that if the religious beliefs were really the main driving force here, there would be more discussion of it but the family has said nothing really of substance, nor has their attorney. To me, it smells really fishy and, putting the whole saga together, it would make sense to me that they are JW and skillfully avoiding mentioning it because public opinion (and public support/finances) would significantly change if it was made clear that they are JW. The church members are very often well-versed on "alternatives" to blood transfusion, often giving doctors "educational" materials about this and also have been known to have attorneys well-versed in defending this in court for cases of children who need blood products. It reminds me of Scientologists and their ability to quickly rally around any member who ends up in a psychiatric hospital - these patients seem to very quickly have church-supported legal counsel. The Huffington Post article I linked to in OP references some "clues" that I think provide support for the idea that they are JW but I admit I could be completely off base.

Here's my ISB thought process on the JW thing -- If they are JW, they likely did not sign consent for blood transfusion (which is typically done prior to any surgery because any procedure has risk of bleeding) and they told hospital/doctors that this was against their religion. Although many surgeons will not agree to these restriction and will not take the case, perhaps they found a doctor willing to agree. It seems unclear to me WHEN she bled (during or after surgery) and it is also unclear what the mechanism of brain injury was and the hospital is not allowed to give any details about this because the family has not given them permission. The doctors may have really pushed family to agree to transfusion but getting court order takes time and in the meantime Jahi had brain injury, likely swelling/herniation and noted to have no brain stem function and was pronounced dead via brain death criteria. A campaign blame placed on the hospital in the media and massive push to raise funds to keep her heart and lungs functioning, however if the public finds out that the reason this all happened is because family refused the REAL life-saving treatment (transfusion), support would end.

Mods, please change post title if you see fit.

[gustava]

I heard on NPR that the coroner issued a death certificate but that doesn't over-ride current legal action.

[GawkingToo]

Please provide links to sources that support the family is JW.

So sorry! I meant probably NOT JWs. Missed a word there, which makes all the difference. My apologies. Next time I'll proofread more carefully.

[GawkingToo]

There is no clear evidence that they are JW and, to me, it is really odd that they reference their "religious beliefs" that have guided their rejection of the idea of brain death. It seems to me that if the religious beliefs were really the main driving force here, there would be more discussion of it but the family has said nothing really of substance, nor has their attorney. To me, it smells really fishy and, putting the whole saga together, it would make sense to me that they are JW and skillfully avoiding mentioning it because public opinion (and public support/finances) would significantly change if it was made clear that they are JW. The church members are very often well-versed on "alternatives" to blood transfusion, often giving doctors "educational" materials about this and also have been known to have attorneys well-versed in defending this in court for cases of children who need blood products. It reminds me of Scientologists and their ability to quickly rally around any member who ends up in a psychiatric hospital - these patients seem to very quickly have church-supported legal counsel. The Huffington Post article I linked to in OP references some "clues" that I think provide support for the idea that they are JW but I admit I could be completely off base.

Here's my ISB thought process on the JW thing -- If they are JW, they likely did not sign consent for blood transfusion (which is typically done prior to any surgery because any procedure has risk of bleeding) and they told hospital/doctors that this was against their religion. Although many surgeons will not agree to these restriction and will not take the case, perhaps they found a doctor willing to agree. It seems unclear to me WHEN she bled (during or after surgery) and it is also unclear what the mechanism of brain injury was and the hospital is not allowed to give any details about this because the family has not given them permission. The doctors may have really pushed family to agree to transfusion but getting court order takes time and in the meantime Jahi had brain injury, likely swelling/herniation and noted to have no brain stem function and was pronounced dead via brain death criteria. A campaign blame placed on the hospital in the media and massive push to raise funds to keep her heart and lungs functioning, however if the public finds out that the reason this all happened is because family refused the REAL life-saving treatment (transfusion), support would end.

Mods, please change post title if you see fit.

It was actually a typo on my part. I meant NOT JWs. And the irony of it isn't lost on me, that I would complain about the post title being misleading for suggesting they might be JWs when my own post was even more misleading in appearing to assert that they were JWs.

At this point, my face is pretty red and I'm just wishing I'd kept my mouth shut in the first place. So I'm gonna bow out of the discussion of their religious beliefs and anything related to it (including post titles!) at this point.

Carry on, friends.