On frumpers and other uniforms

[Hane]

Someone once said (apropos of a school dress code debate in the late '60s), "If you can control what people wear, you can control how they think."

And wasn't it Thoreau who said, "Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes"?

Care to discuss?

[Kathryn31]

Interesting. There are arguments to both sides. From my own view out the window, Mormon missionaries dress very similarly while they are out and I DO thing it has an effect on how they act and possibly how they think but I don't see it as blind following. It may appear to be as they have a specific goal. Most missionaries I know are regular guys although you will get some that are complete robots and they tend to burn out.

On the flip side, "The Devil's Playground" is about rumspringa and what occurs in various Ordnungs. Most of this (if not all) was filmed in N. Indiana and the traditions change from group to group. The girls are seen wearing their traditional Amish garb while smoking, drinking and partying. The boys wear "English" clothing but do the same as the girls. I would see their clothing as a uniform of sorts due to the strict rules regarding their clothes down to width of brims and hat ties.

Kinda playing devils advocate here since I offered no real answer!

[emmyfair]

You're correct on the quote - it's from "Walden; or, Life in the Woods". My most favorite book ever.

I do agree with the issue of dress used to control. It creates feeling of unity in a group, and it's easy to identify people who are "in or out" of the belief system the dress represents. Think "The Handmaids Tale" (OMG I just about wrote "tail"...) and how what women wore defined who the were and what they did ... or what they were used for.

I think the whole fundie obsession with dress is sad and funny at the same time. I don't believe in the same sort of god they do, the pissed off daddy figure, I believe in God(dess), as the energy around and in us and everything in the world is awake and loving - personal beliefs aside, I don't think God gives a projectile rodent's posterior what we wear. It's not something that should take up our time and effort except in the most minimal of ways. There are people hurting, our environment is in danger, and the weakest are being abused. If fundies really practiced what they preached, they might see that the time spent making matching family frumpers would be better spent working at a soup kitchen or handing out ice water at a local hospital... but these are fundies, right? And we all know, it's all about them in the end.

[kb2]

My school district initiated uniforms while I was in high school (to our great dismay), and the teachers swore the kids acted better in uniforms than in blue jeans (we were still dismayed).

[ladypuglover]

I know when I wear something feminine I feel more fiminine and gentle more than I do wearing say clothes to go camping in.

[Crackedeggs]

Clothing has become a signal, a method of communicating who you are, what you want, and where you stand, for the most part in our society. Since the days of skins and rawhide ties, when one cavewoman decided she liked the way her breasts looked when she pulled her skin tighter and tied it at the back, or one caveman realized his penis looked bigger when her wore thicker, fluffier fur over it, we've used clothing as a commercial art form.

[O Latin]

I can understand the idea of uniform type clothing being used to control people or remind them of their place (I imagine this is why prison uniforms are so ugly). But I think it can also be used to create unity in a good way. The only time I can think of that I've ever worn uniform type clothing is for band or choir performances and I think it definitely heightens the sense of unity and the idea that we're all here for the same goal and we're a family and all those other mushy feelings. (Sorry, my high school church choir is having their end of the year concert tonight and this is the first time in seven years that I haven't been either in or attending the concert, so I'm feeling a little sappy).

[emesbe]

Interesting. There are arguments to both sides. From my own view out the window, Mormon missionaries dress very similarly while they are out and I DO thing it has an effect on how they act and possibly how they think but I don't see it as blind following. It may appear to be as they have a specific goal. Most missionaries I know are regular guys although you will get some that are complete robots and they tend to burn out.

On the flip side, "The Devil's Playground" is about rumspringa and what occurs in various Ordnungs. Most of this (if not all) was filmed in N. Indiana and the traditions change from group to group. The girls are seen wearing their traditional Amish garb while smoking, drinking and partying. The boys wear "English" clothing but do the same as the girls. I would see their clothing as a uniform of sorts due to the strict rules regarding their clothes down to width of brims and hat ties.

Kinda playing devils advocate here since I offered no real answer!

We saw a couple today that were wearing the most outrageous sunglasses. Seriously, these two picked out the most heinous gas station glasses. They made us laugh.

[Hane]

My school district initiated uniforms while I was in high school (to our great dismay), and the teachers swore the kids acted better in uniforms than in blue jeans (we were still dismayed).

I bet they had to do that as a result of us rebellious hippies in the '60s, kb2! In 1970, halfway through my senior year, we went from at-least-knee-length-skirts only and no jeans for anyone to Anything Goes! It was great to be able to wear pants to school during a New England winter. I also felt more comfortable in jeans and sneakers than I did in skirts and nylons--and I got the highest grades of my life when I was able to dress comfortably.

[Soldier of the One]

Clothing definitely has a strong conformist function in closed societies.

But even in our 'open' society, there are 'uniforms' that we are expected to wear. From dressy at the office to sexy at the night club. No-one can truly afford to break free from those codes without being ostracized.

Edited for typo.

[Kitten]

As with any ritual, uniforms have good and bad qualities, and for the same reasons. Yes, they provide a sense of belonging, and immediately identify the wearer as a member of a certain group. If you want to belong to that group, uniforms can give you a sense of security and pride. If not, they can make you feel angry and defiant, or miserable, or embarrassed, or....

Many European schools have required uniforms for forever, under the belief that it reduces class differences - if everyone is wearing the same thing, you don't know who has money and who doesn't, or whose dad is a member of Parliament and whose dad is a fishmonger. That sort of thing.

The notion that women wearing dresses feel and act more "feminine" depends on defining feminine in one particular way. If crossing your legs at the ankles, or not hanging upside-down on the monkey bars, is your idea of feminine, okay. I like wearing dresses; I like wearing jeans and sweatshirts; I like wearing dress pants with silky tops. All those outfits make me feel a little "different," but I don't ever feel UNfeminine in any of them, because, well, because I'm a woman! My femininity doesn't depend on the garments I wear.

In the end, a uniform is a uniform, whether you're wearing a football jersey or a frumper. What is means to you is specific to you, your experiences, and your reasons for wearing it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I wore uniforms in school (actual uniforms where everyone buys the IDENTICAL thing at one store with the school emblem on it, not a dress code) and didn't mind it so much. We wore mid-calf length navy blue pleated skirts, white shirts, and a navy blue vest, all extremely plain, and white sneakers. In the winter there was a navy blue blazer. We also had identical raincoats and bookbags.

It was convenient not worrying about what to wear, and since all types of students were wearing the same thing, different personalities of people managed to wear it differently. Living on the edge meant wearing crazy socks (technically prohibited), the wrong sneakers (ditto) or drawing all over your "inside the school" sneakers (we changed into indoor shoes for inside). Plus hanging 24509204910 keychains on your bookbag (this was in the 80's).

Possibly weird part is, at that time one of the popular fashions for outside of school was... jumpers! But not quite as frumpy as the ones usually discussed here - they usually tied in the back and had more flared skirts so they were more shape-following and flattering.

[blisterine]

god bless laura ashley and gunne sax for their contribution to fundiedom.

[hermione1975]

Plus hanging 24509204910 keychains on your bookbag (this was in the 80's).

Talk about taking a trip in the way back machine! I had Bart Simpson, Married With Children, The World Cup...

We would also tie small bells on our shoes at Christmas time. Drove the teachers crazy.

[antifundie]

You know, I was just talking about this with my sister.

In our case, our clothing was totally used to control our behavior. My mom would say "You just act different when you're in a dress!" (This was supposed to be a good thing.)

In my case, wearing a dress meant wearing a frilly, lacy, puffed sleeve-type dress (v. popular in the late '80s, true) with tights, slip, and usually white shoes. I even had to wear tights/stockings in the summer time, to church. This also meant I couldn't play since A) couldn't ruin the clothes and B) wasn't comfortable.

When she started making us wear skirts when we left the house, we did wear standard fundie-style denim skirts, which were slightly more comfortable.

Anyway, we were never allowed to wear comfortable children's clothing (well, at home maybe), but outside the house? No. And it was totally a way to control our behavior, since "Ladies" didn't run, or play, or get dirty when wearing skirts.

It's only been in the last few years that I discovered the joy of wearing bike shorts/leggings under my skirts (no more chub rub!) and so I've started wearing them more often.

So, yes, I think it's a way of controlling behavior. I see non-fundie little kids all the time who wear those cute, bright, washable dresses with leggings and run around and play--but fundie girls (at least the ones I've seen) are more likely to wear blouses that must be ironed, with matronly skirts. OR, they are super frumpy (denim skirt, baggy t-shirt, ratty sneakers). Either way, you are controlled by either being constrained, or by feeling ugly.

(Unless you choose the skirt/sneaker combo, although I'm guessing most teen-ages wouldn't)

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Our skirts were wide and long (and pleated). Underneath we often wore gym shorts, particularly in the lower grades.

That said, I do like skirts with sneakers - wide, long skirts, presentable looking clean sneakers, and with a nice body-flattering top, either a "women's cut" polo (not tight, but following your shape) or one of those "camp shirts" that sort of flare out at the bottom, again not tight but following your curves, so it looks sporty. I'm sure many people are horrified at the idea of sneakers with skirts, but... I'm okay with that. In those clothes, I don't feel confined, because the skirt is wide and long enough that there are no restrictions on any sort of sitting or running. I don't play on the jungle gym so much as an adult, but I'll have shorts on anyway! For that matter, I like the cute easy to wash bright colored dresses with leggings (and sneakers!) on little girls, too.

The sorts of girly girl clothing I always refused to wear were the things that do restrict - any sort of fancy shoes (god forbid heels), short or narrow skirts (pencil skirt suits, anyone? Let's just say I'm happy to not work in a suit-requiring environment!!) or fussy fabric dresses, anything form-fitting that is NOT made of stretchy fabric, that sort of thing. Let it be solid bright colored and washable, please.

I mostly wear pants (jeans, usually) but the skirts I do like often come from fundie-aimed websites - which leads to some interesting spam. :)

I remember seeing one blog featured here (probably the woman whose entire house is awash in pink and glitter - gah) where all the kids were featured wearing these gauzy, lacy, Victorian looking long dresses, and I couldn't help but think if I'd worn that as a kid, it would have been muddy in no time flat and Mom would be wondering if it would nicely dye black since there was no way it'd ever be white again...

[O Latin]

I wear skirts with sneakers sometimes, too, but usually those little canvas ones like they have at Urban Outfitters, NOT big white gym shoes, which I haven't worn since 10th grade P.E.

[Triplet3]

I'm from the UK, where it's completely normal and standard to wear school uniform at all stages of compulsory education. In fact I find the idea of children going to school in jeans really, really strange! At my infants/junior school the uniform was more of a dress code (basically anything blue, white, black or grey) with optional school t-shirts/jumpers/summer dresses thrown in, but my secondary school had a proper, set uniform from years 7-11. Triplet1, Triplet2 and I all really liked having the uniform and were glad that we didn't have to specially think of outfits for school every day (we weren't fashion-conscious, trendy, interested-in-clothes types.) We were even rather excited when, at the end of year 7, they changed the girl's uniform so it was the same colour as the boys' and like theirs, included trousers and the school blazer! Great disappointment that girls still couldn't wear a tie, though - for some reason the three of us always fancied the idea.

One of the biggest benefits of school uniform is that it prevents pupils from being bullied for not wearing the right sort of thing - not having the trendiest trainers or jeans or whatever. I hear stories about clothes-related bullying at schools without uniform (in this country and others) and think that so much of that could be prevented by introducing uniform or at least a reasonably strict dress code. Other benefits are that a uniform looks smart and helps create a real sense of cohesion and 'belonging'. I can't see many disadvantages of uniform at all, to be honest, except maybe the expense of it in poor areas. Or if your uniform is really ugly, I suppose.

[Kaylee]

I wear skirts with sneakers sometimes, too, but usually those little canvas ones like they have at Urban Outfitters, NOT big white gym shoes, which I haven't worn since 10th grade P.E.

Same here. About half the time, I wear long denim skirts with denim keds and anklet socks, but I have those same type of shoes in 3 or 4 colors. I just think they're comfortable and go with a lot of things.

[jjmennonite]

I used to travel a lot, and North America is the only place I have seen where kids DON'T wear uniforms to school. I saw everything from what we think of as traditional uniforms, with skirts and ties, to all the same T-shirt, with jeans, or just a smock type thing over your regular clothes.

I always put shorts on my daughter, if she wore skirts, in summer - so she didn't have to worry about hanging from a jungle gym. Now I see her wearing spandex shorts under her dresses if they are short (she is 18) - maybe for the same reason.

[darareaksmey]

I work in a job where some people wonder why we don't wear uniforms. I am SO glad my labor union has clung to the no-uniform position over the years. It's one thing for kids to have to wear them to school. My children did till they changed school districts this past year, and they honestly both liked unies. It was easy to get up and get dressed without having to put a lot of thought into it, and there was never any bullying or rudeness based on one child's clothing not being up to some fashion standard. But it's quite another for grown-ups to be asked to all look interchangeable, in whatever context. I think if your company does quality work, that's what the customer will remember, not the tiresome way you look day after day.

[Maggie Mae]

(snip)...

One of the biggest benefits of school uniform is that it prevents pupils from being bullied for not wearing the right sort of thing - not having the trendiest trainers or jeans or whatever. I hear stories about clothes-related bullying at schools without uniform (in this country and others) and think that so much of that could be prevented by introducing uniform or at least a reasonably strict dress code. Other benefits are that a uniform looks smart and helps create a real sense of cohesion and 'belonging'. I can't see many disadvantages of uniform at all, to be honest, except maybe the expense of it in poor areas. Or if your uniform is really ugly, I suppose.

I wore uniforms K -- 8, and while it was fine for a while, by the time I hit puberty, it had turned into a nightmare. Our uniform was either the skirt with a white button up -- no sweater over it, or navy blue pants with a white polo tucked in, nothing over the shirt. I was so focused on the fact that my shirt was see through, I failed two classes in 7th grade. The having to tuck in the shirts meant that because I was well endowed, I looked over weight. Even though I was actually slightly under weight.

I'm all for school uniforms if they look nice and fit everyone well. But too many schools in the US are lazy about it. High school we had a dress code which was worse than the uniforms. I'd like to see more schools in the us adopt a uniform, as long as it doesn't accentuate the differences between students, as mine clearly did.

[Triplet3]

I wore uniforms K -- 8, and while it was fine for a while, by the time I hit puberty, it had turned into a nightmare. Our uniform was either the skirt with a white button up -- no sweater over it, or navy blue pants with a white polo tucked in, nothing over the shirt. I was so focused on the fact that my shirt was see through, I failed two classes in 7th grade. The having to tuck in the shirts meant that because I was well endowed, I looked over weight. Even though I was actually slightly under weight.

I'm all for school uniforms if they look nice and fit everyone well. But too many schools in the US are lazy about it. High school we had a dress code which was worse than the uniforms. I'd like to see more schools in the us adopt a uniform, as long as it doesn't accentuate the differences between students, as mine clearly did.

Until reading this thread I didn't know that any schools in the US had uniform, really - I thought it was just here in the UK and in some Commonwealth countries. As they say, you learn something new every day!

[FloraDoraDolly]

Until reading this thread I didn't know that any schools in the US had uniform, really - I thought it was just here in the UK and in some Commonwealth countries. As they say, you learn something new every day!

In the US, Catholic school students have worn uniforms since at least the 1960s, if not before then. Public school uniforms are a more recent phenomenon. In Detroit, the schools began experimenting with uniforms around 1990. Now, virtually all of the students in the Detroit Public Schools have to wear a uniform or adhere to a strict dress code. The charter schools around here also require uniforms or a strict dress code. But the uniform/dress code is a rarity in the more affluent suburban public school districts. Basically, if a school population is predominantly poor and black, you're more likely to see the kids in uniforms. Every teacher or principal I've talked to about the matter has said the kids behave better when they wear the uniform.

[treemom]

I wish we had uniforms at work. Because I am lazy