Found a horrifying 'parenting/discipline' card

[Marianne]

I have a question: would you accept "I couldn't control myself" as a defense in any legal case?

I believe it exists. "Extenuating circumstance" - I can't find how you say in English.

And with my students : we are always several teacher. When I need help, or another teacher need it, there's always someone to help you. It's not the case at home, because I'm alone with this children. And I don't want to be alone with, but it's me or nobody. We just don't have choice.

[Koala]

I believe it exists. "Extenuating circumstance" - I can't find how you say in English.

And with my students : we are always several teacher. When I need help, or another teacher need it, there's always someone to help you. It's not the case at home, because I'm alone with this children. And I don't want to be alone with, but it's me or nobody. We just don't have choice.

No, that's not an excuse at all. You are not fit to be alone with the children if you aren't able to refrain from hitting them. Period. They are not yours and it's their parents responsibility to find suitable caregivers. Hear me when I say, you have absolutely NO EXCUSE for hitting these children. NONE. You have given yourself an undeserved pass.

[Marianne]

No, that's not an excuse at all. You are not fit to be alone with the children if you aren't able to refrain from hitting them. Period. They are not yours and it's their parents responsibility to find suitable caregivers.

I know it, I don't have hoice. Tell that to their mothe r: "I hate them, they are monsters, I don't want these children, I want you to stay with them." And after she left, she came back a day or two ... I called four times social services (= DDASS), nothing. Just and obligation of psychological care for the mother (we have), a visit from the lady of the DASS once a month, and nothing.

[Koala]

I know it, I don't have hoice. Tell that to their mothe r: "I hate them, they are monsters, I don't want these children, I want you to stay with them." And after she left, she came back a day or two ... I called four times social services (= DDASS), nothing. Just and obligation of psychological care for the mother (we have), a visit from the lady of the DASS once a month, and nothing.

You absolutely do have a choice. These are not your children and you have no responsibility to raise them. The state can not force you to raise your roommates children. In fact, I think it's your responsibility to step away if you believe you are unable to control yourself and as a result you hit them.

[singsingsing]

So their mother basically abandons them and treats them like crap, and that gives you the excuse to hit them? Are you out of your mind? So they're neglected by their mother and abused by you, their mother's roommate. Fantastic. You should be ashamed.

[Marianne]

And that's why I try for their father take them, but it's complicated. And difficult, because I come from social services, and I know that the foster families in my area are not the best - euphemism. The social worker said that the children were well (the last year it happened twice that I "hit" - in fact, I caught them by the shoulder, and once a pat on the shoulder, so because they did not remember, the social worker is "not matter if there is no pain, you should avoid" because here corporal punishment is allowed -. the law is not clear on this, but when I was in foster home, there was children beaten with belts beaten with belts that had lived three or four years with their parents, before social services knew. Here social services intervene only rarely.

And I don't say it's an excuse ! I feel guilty, because of my behavior, and that of my roommate, I have to send them back to where I come from - social services, foster care, and I know it's hard.

[lawlifelgbt]

Hi Marianne:

Law student here. In criminal law, an "extenuating circumstance" may decrease sentencing or the severity of the charges. However, it almost NEVER makes the person not responsible for the harm they cause. Think of it similarly for you and those kids.

[Marianne]

Hi Marianne:

Law student here. In criminal law, an "extenuating circumstance" may decrease sentencing or the severity of the charges. However, it almost NEVER makes the person not responsible for the harm they cause. Think of it similarly for you and those kids.

It's what I wanted to say...

[Childless]

We've had a lot of issues with my son throwing toys when he gets angry or frustrated. I understand that it's his way of venting because he hasn't figured out any other way to calm himself down. Of course, we can't have hot wheels flying all over the place. Time outs weren't working. Several people we knew suggested we spank him. Hell, no. First of all, spanking teaches a child that violence is the answer to a problem. Second, it would have been easy (and lazy) to just start hitting him. It's much harder to teach a child a better way to handle his emotions. After many weeks of headaches and a few bruises from flying toys, we finally figured out a solution to our problem. Every time he threw a toy, he lost that toy for the rest of the day. We would also ask him what the problem was and help him. For several days, the box of contraband toys was full to overflowing. Slowly though, the amount of toys in the box every day started dwindling. Now, we're down to two or three a day. We've also learned to anticipate a melt down and try to head it off by asking him if he needs help before he gets so frustrated he starts flinging toys around the room. We're still working on getting him to ask for help himself, but we'll eventually get there. This was a much better solution. I think he's learned more this way than if we had just started swatting his backside.

[Conuly]

I have to say, Marianne, I find "I cannot help myself" to be a very frightening sentence.

To routinely find that you cannot control your behavior when provoked by small children means that one day you are bound to hurt more than you intend. I really don't like the idea of spanking as routine discipline, but that still seems better than hitting every time you get that frustrated.

Why not try a time-out? If they are too old to put in a playpen for a few minutes while you take a break, you can step into the bathroom or out into the hall and breathe for a few minutes, just long enough to calm down.

People can make mistakes, I understand that. But once you've made the mistake of hitting a child out of anger or frustration, the right thing to do is to try to improve yourself so you do not do it again, not to throw up your hands and say "well, I cannot help myself! They are awful, and I'm only human, after all!"

[August]

But parents are human... I'm against violence, but I'm bad to educate the little ones who live with me (not mine, those of my roommate). I don't know how. And sometimes, there are times when I'm tired, when I hear them scream, and I fall, and I give a spanking. I don't want to do it, but I can't control myself. I don't know how to make these perfect parents who are always "my kids love to eat vegetables," "I don't have to spank my children." I do not want to do it and I feel guilty (god, they are not my children, control your nerves! ") Luckily I don't have enough muscles to hurt them. So, please don't judge all parents who hit like monsters. Sometimes they are just human - as their children.

If you can't stop yourself from hitting your roommate's children when they scream you need to find somewhere else to live. Really, that is one of the most horrifying things I've read all week. That is really really scary.

How on earth can you be a music teacher if you have no behavior modification skills? What happens if a child messes up their scales. Do you hit them?

But, in the interests of these children, do you want help? Do you want to change? We can help you, and we'll stop the pile on, if you ask for help.

[fullmetalheart]

If you can't stop yourself from hitting your roommate's children when they scream you need to find somewhere else to live. Really, that is one of the most horrifying things I've read all week. That is really really scary.

How on earth can you be a music teacher if you have no behavior modification skills? What happens if a child messes up their scales. Do you hit them?

But, in the interests of these children, do you want help? Do you want to change? We can help you, and we'll stop the pile on, if you ask for help.

This, so much this.

[Mama Mia]

And that's why I try for their father take them, but it's complicated. And difficult, because I come from social services, and I know that the foster families in my area are not the best - euphemism. The social worker said that the children were well (the last year it happened twice that I "hit" - in fact, I caught them by the shoulder, and once a pat on the shoulder, so because they did not remember, the social worker is "not matter if there is no pain, you should avoid" because here corporal punishment is allowed -. the law is not clear on this, but when I was in foster home, there was children beaten with belts beaten with belts that had lived three or four years with their parents, before social services knew. Here social services intervene only rarely.

And I don't say it's an excuse ! I feel guilty, because of my behavior, and that of my roommate, I have to send them back to where I come from - social services, foster care, and I know it's hard.

It sounds like you're in a very difficult situation, and given your experience in the foster care system I can certainly see why you wouldn't want the children in foster care.

If you think you are going to be stuck in this situation for awhile, with the parents being absent so much, can you think of ways to make caring for the children less stressful for you, so that you don't lose your temper? How old are the children, maybe people could come up with some age appropriate suggestions for you.

[jaelh]

i wonder if part of marianne's issue isn't language.

i grew up in a family of... many children. there were two hitters: my grandmother, who would hit maliciously, and my mother, who would give us a swat every now and again for something like crowd control.

my grandmother - no, never. appalling, terrible, bad, all of that.

my mother - very, very different. not hitting to instil fear or in rage, but when either chaos was upon us and people were doing dangerous things or (very rarely) a slap out of mammoth frustration. I would say my mothers actions were something like marrianne's "can't help myself". (and i know, yes, the anecdote is no argument at all. it's not meant to be, it's just illustrative of the difference)

a slap from someone who is utterly at the end of their tether, a slap that is not malicious, not intended to injure or hurt, but to shock a child into obedience is not the same as the malicious, i will hit you till you learn/obey/smile the right way.

it's not desirable behaviour, and yes, it shouldn't happen.

but to class it up there with the pearls doesn't make sense: it's not the same. it's not good, no. but it's not the same as parents who use physical discipline as part of their every day suite of child raising tools.

for everyone who says - you shouldn't be raising children if you can't avoid the above. Well, ok. but so what? that's nothing but a platitude. There are parents who are raising children who do hit occasionally out of frustration. simply saying "you have no business raising the child" has no use or meaning. they are raising the child. the end.

so again: just so i'm really clear about what i'm saying. i'm not advocating physical discipline as acceptable or appropriate. i am saying that child raising can be extraordinarily difficult, and that sometimes we fail to be our best selves. the hitting that results is *not* acceptable, but it's also - as marrianne says - not grounds to label the parents monsters. the monsters - shit, we all know the monsters. frustrated hitters need support, and to do what is necessary to avoid situations where they hit. monster hitters need psychiatric treatment and to have the children removed from their care until they no longer hit. I don't think that's an unreasonable distinction to make.

[jaelh]

If you think you are going to be stuck in this situation for awhile, with the parents being absent so much, can you think of ways to make caring for the children less stressful for you, so that you don't lose your temper? How old are the children, maybe people could come up with some age appropriate suggestions for you.

this is ! :)

[thoughtful]

We've had a lot of issues with my son throwing toys when he gets angry or frustrated. I understand that it's his way of venting because he hasn't figured out any other way to calm himself down. Of course, we can't have hot wheels flying all over the place. Time outs weren't working. Several people we knew suggested we spank him. Hell, no. First of all, spanking teaches a child that violence is the answer to a problem. Second, it would have been easy (and lazy) to just start hitting him. It's much harder to teach a child a better way to handle his emotions. After many weeks of headaches and a few bruises from flying toys, we finally figured out a solution to our problem. Every time he threw a toy, he lost that toy for the rest of the day. We would also ask him what the problem was and help him. For several days, the box of contraband toys was full to overflowing. Slowly though, the amount of toys in the box every day started dwindling. Now, we're down to two or three a day. We've also learned to anticipate a melt down and try to head it off by asking him if he needs help before he gets so frustrated he starts flinging toys around the room. We're still working on getting him to ask for help himself, but we'll eventually get there. This was a much better solution. I think he's learned more this way than if we had just started swatting his backside.

Brava (and bravo to your husband!). Appropriate punishment that will actually reduce the behavior, planning ahead, meeting the needs that created the unwanted behavior -- you've got it all.

[thoughtful]

And with my students : we are always several teacher. When I need help, or another teacher need it, there's always someone to help you. It's not the case at home, because I'm alone with this children. And I don't want to be alone with, but it's me or nobody. We just don't have choice.

You are in an awful situation, since it sounds like the parents of these children are not doing what they should, and may have already made the children's sense of self and behavior worse.

It also sounds incredibly unfair to both you and the children. I do have sympathy for your being in that situation.

I am very concerned that your answer to why this is different from classroom management is that, at work, there are other adults you can call on. That should not be what makes it easier at work, although teamwork is a good thing.

I have taught music for over 40 years, every ratio from 1:1 up to me in a room with hundreds of kids, kids I was not permitted to hit (not that I would have). I had to learn specific skills to get the behavior I wanted, and, believe me, a lot of those skills did not come naturally to me, even though I'd been raised by a Mom who is very good at them.

I worked with some teachers who got rapt attention by standing still and smiling at their students. They built up a history of being so kind, so fair, so useful, that it seemed as if they could get kids to participate in activities without even realizing they'd been asked to do work. They were like the Pied Piper, and I emulated them.

I had to learn, from better teachers, how to "turn off my ears" to whining and shrieking. I had to learn how to wait. I had to commit to a reward-based method of getting through, and stick with it. I had to learn how to reduce unwanted behaviors without humiliating, hurting or alienating children.

And I'm still learning skills from parents and teachers who do it better than I do.

What do the other staff members do when they help you at work? Does one person drag a child off to be yelled at while the other stays with the rest of the children, or do you think some of your co-workers might have the kinds of skills I'm talking about? Is there someone from whom you can learn?

Your life will be exponentially easier if you can learn how to use these skills, and you will no longer be either an "in the moment, but not very strong" hitter, which is not good, or a serious danger to children, which could happen if you don't nip it in the bud now.

It is never actually necessary to use pain to try to teach children. It may seem so at the moment, but it is not.

How old are your roommate's children, and how many are there? What kind of unwanted behavior made you resort to hitting?

[OkToBeTakei]

i wonder if part of marianne's issue isn't language.

i grew up in a family of... many children. there were two hitters: my grandmother, who would hit maliciously, and my mother, who would give us a swat every now and again for something like crowd control.

my grandmother - no, never. appalling, terrible, bad, all of that.

my mother - very, very different. not hitting to instil fear or in rage, but when either chaos was upon us and people were doing dangerous things or (very rarely) a slap out of mammoth frustration. I would say my mothers actions were something like marrianne's "can't help myself". (and i know, yes, the anecdote is no argument at all. it's not meant to be, it's just illustrative of the difference)

a slap from someone who is utterly at the end of their tether, a slap that is not malicious, not intended to injure or hurt, but to shock a child into obedience is not the same as the malicious, i will hit you till you learn/obey/smile the right way.

it's not desirable behaviour, and yes, it shouldn't happen.

but to class it up there with the pearls doesn't make sense: it's not the same. it's not good, no. but it's not the same as parents who use physical discipline as part of their every day suite of child raising tools.

for everyone who says - you shouldn't be raising children if you can't avoid the above. Well, ok. but so what? that's nothing but a platitude. There are parents who are raising children who do hit occasionally out of frustration. simply saying "you have no business raising the child" has no use or meaning. they are raising the child. the end.

so again: just so i'm really clear about what i'm saying. i'm not advocating physical discipline as acceptable or appropriate. i am saying that child raising can be extraordinarily difficult, and that sometimes we fail to be our best selves. the hitting that results is *not* acceptable, but it's also - as marrianne says - not grounds to label the parents monsters. the monsters - shit, we all know the monsters. frustrated hitters need support, and to do what is necessary to avoid situations where they hit. monster hitters need psychiatric treatment and to have the children removed from their care until they no longer hit. I don't think that's an unreasonable distinction to make.

So much this. To say I've been there with this topic before is an understatement :lol:

At least somebody had the decency to admit they were piling on, although offering to stop IF a certain criteria is met is just plain unhelpful as no constructive advice was being offered. The reason such black and white views are unhelpful.

I think what the less judgemental and more intelligent posters are trying to say Marianne is that while nobody is 100 perfect all the time and parenting is and can be difficult but that whilst anybody can lose control or have a lapse of judgement it is recognising that you have to learn and move on from that and be aware that under stress you are capable of doing something you never thought you would. It's finding ways to make sure it never happens again. For some it never does, for you it seems a very complex set of circumstances. Can you break down each problem and deal with them separately as others suggested. What triggers the bad behaviours in the kids, is their Mum dealing with it the same way? How you can minimise the circumstances where you feel hitting is the only option.

You quite obviously feel bad about it and despite the finger pointers I think most can see that.

I have a very vocal anti-smacking friend, who spends a large part of her parenting day screaming AT her kids, she does it purposely stands them in front of her to do it, it's horrifying. Whilst hitting is NEVER the answer abuse comes in many forms. It's never quite so black and white.

Hopefully you can pick up some good advice that is being offered.

[singsingsing]

Give me a break. If someone here dares to defend a fundie they're a troll or a hand-slapper, but it's not okay to call one of our members out for hitting kids? Seriously? Where the fuck is the logic in that? If someone defended a fundie who was doing what Marianne says she does, then you'd have a pile-on. But if a poster here does it and I tell her how horrible it is, I'm stoopid and mean? I'm not attacking Marianne's intrinsic worth as a human being, but what she's doing is absolutely wrong, just like when the fundies we snark on do it.

[fullmetalheart]

Give me a break. If someone here dares to defend a fundie they're a troll or a hand-slapper, but it's not okay to call one of our members out for hitting kids? Seriously? Where the fuck is the logic in that? If someone defended a fundie who was doing what Marianne says she does, then you'd have a pile-on. But if a poster here does it and I tell her how horrible it is, I'm stoopid and mean? I'm not attacking Marianne's intrinsic worth as a human being, but what she's doing is absolutely wrong, just like when the fundies we snark on do it.

And they are not her children. She is spanking someone else's children, because she cannot control herself. I'm sorry, but that reeks of a HUGE problem for me.

[jaelh]

Give me a break. If someone here dares to defend a fundie they're a troll or a hand-slapper, but it's not okay to call one of our members out for hitting kids? Seriously? Where the fuck is the logic in that? If someone defended a fundie who was doing what Marianne says she does, then you'd have a pile-on. But if a poster here does it and I tell her how horrible it is, I'm stoopid and mean? I'm not attacking Marianne's intrinsic worth as a human being, but what she's doing is absolutely wrong, just like when the fundies we snark on do it.

The fundies we snark on - the ones we snark on for hitting - hit as part of an "acceptable" discipline regime. It's part of a suite of tools they believe are appropriate to use against children. If marrianne had said - actually, I think it's totally a-ok to hit kids to make them do what you want, the point you're making would be correct.

however, that's not what she said. Marrianne isn't trying to defend her actions. She was making the observation "all hitters are not the same". This is not something she is advocating, that she is proud of doing, that she thinks others should do. This makes her *fundamentally different to the fundies that we snark on*.

But either way...

What are you hoping to achieve?

I mean, we can see she doesn't think her conduct is acceptable. It almost sounds like a cry for help.

What do you think telling her what's she's doing is wrong is going to achieve?

Yes, it's a problem. But Marrianne isn't denying that.

So where to from there? Give the children up? Is that the sum total of the possible options that are open here?

I've got *not problems* with calling out (fiercely) parents that think hitting is a desirable or acceptable way to disciple or engage with their children. But when someone says - I've been left with a number of children from what sounds like a dysfunctional situation and sometimes when I'm exhausted I hit them even though I know it's the wrong thing to do... shit. the same approach is not appropriate.

and i know, what marriane said was "i can't help myself" but I think we can see from that english isn't her first language, and we could do well with extending some grace as to what she meant by that. if you replaced it with "at the end of my tether and out of frustration i slap" it's still *not good* (very much) but it' might be.... I don't know, not quite so horrible sounding.

anyway.

[OkToBeTakei]

Give me a break. If someone here dares to defend a fundie they're a troll or a hand-slapper, but it's not okay to call one of our members out for hitting kids? Seriously? Where the fuck is the logic in that? If someone defended a fundie who was doing what Marianne says she does, then you'd have a pile-on. But if a poster here does it and I tell her how horrible it is, I'm stoopid and mean? I'm not attacking Marianne's intrinsic worth as a human being, but what she's doing is absolutely wrong, just like when the fundies we snark on do it.

The logic is quite simple. The 'fundies' we snark on for their way of lives are not coming here asking or seeking our opinion. Marianne was.

[Koala]

The logic is quite simple. The 'fundies' we snark on for their way of lives are not coming here asking or seeking our opinion. Marianne was.

I could very well have missed it, so could you please quote where she asked our opinion? Not saying she didn't - I just didn't see it. And if she did ask, she got it. Some of us are hand holders, some aren't.

[OkToBeTakei]

Her first post. She asked not to be judged. She then replied with the situation which she is in where she feels she has no choices. Granted hitting the kids is very much a choice. She appears to realise this.

I don't see the questions and suggestions others are making as 'hand holding' hopefully rather than being told repeatedly how awful hitting a child is which she appears to know anyway, she will maybe return to the thread and take away from it some hope that she can change herself and her situation which will benefit the children in her care ..... Or she can come back and see that actually nobody wants to make any suggestions other than to tell her she is a terrible person and she may carry on as she appears to have sought help from social services in the past without a good result and fears the foster care system.

[Marianne]

First, sorry for the last replay, but it was the night here.

For answering to the question : they have 3 and 4 years old. Childless and Conuly, thank for your advice, i'll try. I really want to change (it has been 5 months since I have not been very angry against them - not even cry. I think that going to school really help them to be calm, and teacher help me a lot also "do this or do this".)

And August, YES of course I want to change ! I grew up in the violence - first physical with my biological family, then psychological with foster families (because here, 90% of foster family do this for monney. So children are just the dog of the family). I don't want it for this children.

Jaelh says better than me what I wanted to say.

I don't have time to respond to other positions (those on page 3), because I use Google translate, and then I gotta go to work. I will answer tonight (here it is 8 am, I come home from work at 18 pm). Thank you.