Found a horrifying 'parenting/discipline' card

[Mama Mia]

Give me a break. If someone here dares to defend a fundie they're a troll or a hand-slapper, but it's not okay to call one of our members out for hitting kids? Seriously? Where the fuck is the logic in that? If someone defended a fundie who was doing what Marianne says she does, then you'd have a pile-on. But if a poster here does it and I tell her how horrible it is, I'm stoopid and mean? I'm not attacking Marianne's intrinsic worth as a human being, but what she's doing is absolutely wrong, just like when the fundies we snark on do it.

I think there is a huge difference between a parent ( or caretaker) who gets frustrated and smacks once and awhile, or even a parent who doesn't believe there's anything wrong with giving an occasional mild spanking for specific behaviors, and the systematic, encouraged severe abuse advocated by the Pearls and their ilk. I think lumping it all together makes no sense and minimizes the damage done by followers of the Pearls and others.

I think offering anyone suggestions for how not to lose it with kids can be helpful. But I'm not very PC and am often hand-slappy so theres that.

[August]

First, sorry for the last replay, but it was the night here.

For answering to the question : they have 3 and 4 years old. Childless and Conuly, thank for your advice, i'll try. I really want to change (it has been 5 months since I have not been very angry against them - not even cry. I think that going to school really help them to be calm, and teacher help me a lot also "do this or do this".)

And August, YES of course I want to change ! I grew up in the violence - first physical with my biological family, then psychological with foster families (because here, 90% of foster family do this for monney. So children are just the dog of the family). I don't want it for this children.

Jaelh says better than me what I wanted to say.

I don't have time to respond to other positions (those on page 3), because I use Google translate, and then I gotta go to work. I will answer tonight (here it is 8 am, I come home from work at 18 pm). Thank you.

OK, great, let's help you, then! (lots of people see nothing wrong with hitting, so spending hours typing and finding links is poitless)

May I ask what your first language is? I might be able to find some books to help. I'll try to use simple sentences, hopefully they'll be less mangled by google translate.

OK, first you need to know that kids are a bit like adults. Sometimes you are tired or feeling sick and that makes you grumpy. Sometimes you think your boyfriend doesn't love you, and you become clingy and whiny with him. Children feel the same things, they get hungy, they get tired and they want to feel loved and be taken care of. They also get frustrated when they don't get to make decisions. Have you had a boss who told you how to do everything and never let you decide anything for yourself? That is how it feels to be a child. But, they do want to know someone else is in charge. Feeling both things at once is very upsetting and confusing for them! That's whythey can throw a tantrum over having red sock and not blue socks.

But, children are different from adults. They don't have fully formed brains and aren't very good at logic. Things that seem obvious to us are not obvious to them. Talking to them and explaining things really helps. It is one of the most important things. As children develop they go through predictable stages, and unfortunately three years old is the absolute worst. They are making the transition from baby to independent person, and they do it by trying to push away their mother/father. But there are things you can do to make fights and misbehaviour less frequent and to cope with it when it happens.

Can you tell us some times and situations that are difficult?

In my family I can tell when the children are getting hungry because their voices get louder. I feed them approximately every two hours. Snacks are fruit, cheese, yoghurt, bread, hummus, rice cakes. Most three year olds prefer fruit to be cut up. If you avoid foods with artificial colors they may behave better. By giving snacks which are normal food you're just spreading their meals out over the day. I can predict what times will be bad with my children by how long since they've eaten. Having a supply of snacks in my bag helps if we're at the playground and I can hear the pitch and volume oftheir voices rising, but we need to leave. I won't call them over to go home, I'll tell them I have some cheese, then, as they're eating I'll have picked them up and be walking to the car. While we walk I'll chat about the next activity, maybe a book we'll read at home.

This is not a bribe. It's noticing that they are hungry and making sure that need is filled before you try to get them to do something unpleasant. You are also distracting them from leaving the playground and getting into the car. If you focus on the car and talk about the car they will fixate on that and resist. You might be surprised how often they get hungry. When one of mine was three breakfast was at about 7am, and we left for preschool around 9am. It took a longtime for me to realise we needed a snack around the time we were getting into the car.

You can probably see this technique of glossing over the transition is perfect for a lot more things than leaving a playground. It is magical for bath time. Instead of "OK! Bath time!" you pick up the child, say in a cheerful voice "Hey! I wonder if Mr Whale will float if he's wrapped in a washcloth?" and then you have a conversation about that while you undress them and before they know it they're in the bath.

It also works for mealtimes, leaving the house in the morning, bedtime and getting dressed.

My husband and I are terrible at bath time. Instead of doing the rightthing, we sit on the sofa and tell the kids to get in the bath. That rarely works. If we get up, and take the child to the bath, that works.

I have so much more, but I need to take kids to school. I'll be back with another wall of text later on. See how I haven't even covered what to do when they are naughty yet? 90% of discipline is being proactive, solving things before they become a problem.

[formergothardite]

The children are probably acting out because they are in a bad situation where their mother appears to abandon them on a regular basis. Children, even small ones, are not stupid and can pick up if adults don't like them.

If you really cannot stop yourself from losing it and hitting them when they get on their nerves then you need to do whatever you can to get them in a safe place. You might not think that you can cause serious harm but if you are snapping and not being able to control yourself then it can happen easier than you think.

What August said about being pro-active is the best advice. Sit down, write down all the times they act up and what is going on before it all starts. It could be as simple as they want attention from you and the only way they know how to get it is to act bad till you flip out and hit them. For some kids any attention can be good attention. Maybe make up a sticker chart or something like that where you reward them for good behavior. You might not only have to modify their behavior but also your own.

[thoughtful]

August and FG have given good advice. Those ages are not my area of highest expertise, but I would add a few things -- those who know this age better, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Choice - when you are planning ahead to make sure they are ready for daily needs and transitions, try to give them choices. So, lay out two outfits, name or show two healthful foods, take out several toys, etc., and ask which they prefer.

Asking "what do you want to eat?" can lead to anger when you don't accept the answer "candy!" Saying "you have to eat this" can lead to frustration over never having any control over anything. Having the adult give two choices can sometimes make things go more smoothly.

Be prepared to give them time to decide, and ask "would you like me to choose?" if they don't want to do so.

Time - as an adult who works with older kids, you may be, as I was, accustomed to getting things done pretty quickly. With school-age children, we say "come sit down," or "sing the song" and . . . they do it! Younger children are not like that.

With 3-4 year olds, you might need to double the time you allow for things to happen, and give them some lead time, some warning about what will come next. You can make some things a game, by saying "if you can do it by the time I count to five . . ." But sometimes you just need to let children this age drift slowly into whatever is next.

Don't mistake testing for defiance - you may see the children purposefully do the opposite of what you ask, or not do what you ask, while looking to see what your reaction will be.

In this age (and, even sometimes in older kids), this is not a planned, evil plot to rebel and be defiant. It is more like a science experiment -- they can be genuinely curious about what happens, just checking about cause and effect.

They could also be trying to avoid doing something they don't want to do, but again, it's not a plot against the adult, just checking to see if they really need to do what is asked.

I found that knowing this made me much more patient with them. I gently remind them of the consequences, good and bad - "If you do ________ (whatever I asked for), then _________ (something good will happen). If you don't, then _____ (something they won't like that doesn't involve pain and will happen right away -- losing a privilege or toy, for example)".

But I don't get into a fight about their "defying" me.

Get excited when they do well - big, big praise is sometimes important for this age group. It's not my style to get all cheery and squeal happily about accomplishments -- my natural reaction is "OK, good, now on to the next thing."

That doesn't work with a lot of little children -- I had to learn how to take time for a happy, excited reaction.

[frumper-rump]

We've had a lot of issues with my son throwing toys when he gets angry or frustrated. I understand that it's his way of venting because he hasn't figured out any other way to calm himself down. Of course, we can't have hot wheels flying all over the place. Time outs weren't working. Several people we knew suggested we spank him. Hell, no. First of all, spanking teaches a child that violence is the answer to a problem. Second, it would have been easy (and lazy) to just start hitting him. It's much harder to teach a child a better way to handle his emotions. After many weeks of headaches and a few bruises from flying toys, we finally figured out a solution to our problem. Every time he threw a toy, he lost that toy for the rest of the day. We would also ask him what the problem was and help him. For several days, the box of contraband toys was full to overflowing. Slowly though, the amount of toys in the box every day started dwindling. Now, we're down to two or three a day. We've also learned to anticipate a melt down and try to head it off by asking him if he needs help before he gets so frustrated he starts flinging toys around the room. We're still working on getting him to ask for help himself, but we'll eventually get there. This was a much better solution. I think he's learned more this way than if we had just started swatting his backside.

Thanks for sharing this! My toddler is 19 months old and well into the very frustrated stage of development where he knows what he wants but cant quite communicate it. Tthrowing is an issue in my house right now too.

[Conuly]

Well, three and four are two frustrating ages, that's for sure. I can bet I know what happens - neither of them does what you ask, the three year old screams and hits and argues and the four year old curses and says I hate you and argues. More or less, right?

Hitting doesn't even work. If it did any good, we all might give up, because three and four are awful ages, but it doesn't even do any good.

Time outs and redirection are the way to go. For time outs, put the kid in a safe spot, tell them they have to stay until they are calm. For redirection, give them something else to do. If they are jumping around in the kitchen near the stove, ask if they want to help you carefully make the salad at the table, or if they would like to build an obstacle course with pillows in the front room.

Try to give them simple choices ("do you want to wear the red shirt or the green one?") but not totally open ended ones ("what do you want for lunch today?") because then they might pick something they cannot have ("ice cream for lunch!") or they might get frustrated at all the choices.

Sometimes with that age, "the silly game" works. It can be tedious as an adult, but investing a little energy in it pays off. If they won't get dressed, sometimes they will respond if you put the clothes on the doll, but do it all wrong (the pants on the head, the shoes on the hands....). If they don't want to tidy up a room, sometimes they respond if you make it a race to see who can pick up more blocks, or if you play "ghost room" (an invention of mine. Turn off the lights, shine a flashlight, and whatever you shine it on has to be put away. Be sure to shine it on the children, the chairs, the window, and so on during the game.)

Children that age also cannot do big tasks alone. You have to break it down for them, supervise, and set a timer so they know it will not go on forever. Instead of saying "you made a big mess in the living room! Go clean it up right now!" try something like "there are a lot of toys on the living room floor. I will set the timer. You pick up all the red things you can before the timer goes off, and your brother can pick up all the blue things, and I will try to get the green things. When we are done, the winner gets a sticker, and then we can take a break and read a book."

It isn't fair that you have to watch them, but if you are certain foster care would be worse then it is good that you try.

[August]

I very much agree with Thoughtful and FormerGotharditeand Conuly. Great advice.

I agree it's not fair you have to deal with them, but if you're willing to do what their mother can't, then you could make a very big difference in their lives.

Continuing on my massive wall of text (sorry!)... we're still on background issues which will affect their mood and the outcome of any interaction you're going tohave with them.

Something that was very useful to me was to discover the basic temperament of my children. They are born with certain wiring, which you can't change. All you can do is figure out how to work with it. And if that sounds hopeless, it's far from it! Having this knowledge about a person's temperament is so valuable and powerful!

There are several facets of temperament, and each person will be somewhere on the range for each facet. You could be very rhythmic, but positive and calm, and so being half an hour late for nap might be no big deal. But if you're very rhythmic but moody and intense then being late for nap might be the end of the world. And a tantrum from a persistent child is much worse than if they lose interest as soon as you walk away.

Activity: Is the child always moving and doing something OR does he or she have a more relaxed style?

Rhythmicity: Is the child regular in his or her eating and sleeping habits OR somewhat haphazard?

Approach/withdrawal: Does he or she "never meet a stranger" OR tend to shy away from new people or things?

Adaptability: Can the child adjust to changes in routines or plans easily or does he or she resist transitions?

Intensity: Does he or she react strongly to situations, either positive or negative, OR does he or she react calmly and quietly?

Mood: Does the child often express a negative outlook OR is he or she generally a positive person? Does his or her mood shift frequently OR is he or she usually even-tempered?

Persistence and attention span: Does the child give up as soon as a problem arises with a task OR does he or she keep on trying? Can he or she stick with an activity a long time OR does his or her mind tend to wander?

Distractibility: Is the child easily distracted from what he or she is doing OR can he or she shut out external distractions and stay with the current activity?

Sensory threshold: Is he or she bothered by external stimuli such as loud noises, bright lights, or food textures OR does he or she tend to ignore them?

If you can read these and identify where your roommate's children fall on each scale it will help us tailor advice for you. It could also be really helpful for their mother. You could comment "Isn't it interesting how Jane goes from activity to activity easily, but Bob needs lots of warnings that we're going to finish?" or "wow, Bob is so persistent trying to get that chocolate from you! When he's grown up he'll go far in life!".

The next thing I want to talk about is sleep. From memory a 3-4 year old needs around 11 hours of sleep a day, and it needs to begin at close to the same time each day. They won't drop dead if they don't get it, but everything will be harder for you if they are tired. Most children do best with a bedtime somewhere between 6-9 pm, depending on their biological clock and the family schedule. Having a short routine before bed helps them relax, slow down and fall asleep. It also helps them sleep deeply. Try not to have screen time (TV, phone) for two hours before bedtime. If you can get their mother to sit with them and a book, it would be great. Other things which can help is a warm bath, and listening to a recorded story (there are podcasts of children's stories in English, I don't know about your language). My husband and I suck at this, too. Instead of telling the children to get ready for bed, we should get up and take them up to bed.

Those four things are the background for everything I do as a mother - hunger, tiredness, temperament and developmental stage.

But the next thing is HUGELY important, and it's where you're going to have problems. The children want attention and loving time. You can try to fill that, but they're really wanting it from their mother. I do think if you try to provide it it will help.

I will guess that if they're badly behaved and none of the adults want to deal with them they're probably being put in front of the TV a lot. I have noticed that when my children watch TV the bad behaviours are concentrated into the times the TV is off. Which, of course, makes me want to turn it on again! I will try to do things like... when we arrive home from school/preschool/daycare I sit with them on the couch and snuggle for half an hour, then see how they go while I do what I need to do. When they start getting crazy I turn on the TV while I finish up.

When we say that a child is doing something for attention, that doesn't mean you should drop everything and reward them right then and there. What you need to do is take note and later on, or the next day, remember to do something fun with the child. We always have a terrible morning if we all jump out of bed and rush. If I snuggle and concentrate fully on one of my kids for just five minutes the whole morning goes better. This is part of the Supernanny (TV show) formula. She gets them to have rules, but she also makes sure they do lots of fun things together. At first it will suck, because their behaviour is not going to improve for a while. You're going to have to grit your teeth and pretend to be loving. Hopefully they will begin to behave better because of the attention and then spending time with them will become less unpleasant.

I'm going to post this, and come back later with opus 3: strategies for when they're naughty. My biggest advice is to pick your battles and stick to your guns (translation: don't try to fix every problem at once, but be firm and committed to fixing the things you choose). If you start handing out timeouts for everything they will be in timeout all day and get angrier and angrier.

[August]

I looked at your location, if you are a French speaker, these books are wonderful

http://www.amazon.fr/Lenfant-3-à-4-ans/dp/2130355331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384446084&sr=8-1&keywords=ames+ilg+trois+ans

http://www.amazon.fr/Parler-enfants-écoutent-écouter-parlent/dp/2981161067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384446328&sr=8-1&keywords=faber+mazlish

[Conuly]

I just want to say that the sleep thing is very important. Children that age need a lot of sleep and a consistent bedtime, and studies show that lack of either can affect behavior. In general, outside of the need for sleep, children that age really need consistency. Breakfast at a certain time, dinner at a certain time, a weekly schedule that doesn't vary much, and you try not to say you will or won't do something unless you mean it.

And I, too, have noticed that the more TV and computer time a young child has, the worse their behavior tends to be later on.

[Marianne]

August (first part) :

The situations that are difficult :

when I'm tired (I am disabled) and I can’t help them or do something like go for a walk, play with them in physical activity.

When I have to work on my music and they do not like (I'm trying to work on my workplace). Their reaction: screaming and crying - especially the oldest. When the routine is broken: screaming, crying and lots and lots of questions, but I think that I give to them my stress. The youngest, Alixandre, has difficulty hearing and seeing, and when we did not know he was frustrated and hitting objects. It will soon be treated, but, for example, this morning, there was a piano music on the radio. Phileas says "it's beautiful", I say "yes, it's beautiful, it's Chopin." But Alixandre can’t hear. "What are you talking about?" "Music on the radio. You can’t hear it, but I'll turn up the volume, so, you can hear" "No, don't go up the volume!" and he hits the table violently and he screams. I just waited for him to calm down, give him a hug and "forget about it, do you want a beautifull music ? » and after I give him a music that he can hear. But it’s always like this, I try to be positive « hey, alixandre, soon, you can hear ! you can see ! » but… he can understand.

When Phileas can’t understand something (he is a scientist, he asks a lot of questions) or I can’t give him something, he screams. For example, he wants to learn to read but I don’t want to because I think it is to the teacher to do this. but his best friend – same age - read, he thinks it is unfair and "I want to read, I want to read. ». When Phileas want something, he said it hundred and hundred…

About food ... It is difficult here because the food habits are different - no judgment, just an observation ;). They love sweets - no surprise! - And when they see in the store, they scream... Another problem is that I'll get them to school late - 17 h 30, and parents don’t have the right to give to their child a snack, except for medical reasons (because of the racket, it’s a difficult school). So from 12 h 00 (lunch) to 17 h 30 they eat nothing. So they are in a very bad mood. I give them a snack (like an apple, a croissant, and a smoothie), but they want more. But if I give them a big snack, they are no longer hungry at dinner. And... at midnight, they want to eat. Oh, and they want the « normal » products (like Coca Cola), and I give them « biological » product, and a lot of vegetable, because I'm in a biological association.

Phileas is very dictator with his brother. for example, his brother likes to dress up as a princess (dresses, etc ...). No problems for me, I just say "yes, you can put dresses as a disguise and wear pink t-shirt, but beware, some people will tell you that this is not for you because you're a boy. This is ridiculous, don’t listen. " And then, Phileas hit Alixandre, saying « No, she’s wrong, you don’t have to do it. » and it's always like that, when alix does something Phileas dislikes.

Their basic reaction to many thing is : scream, and for Alix, hit something (like the wall, etc…).

And all about their mother. Because "I WANT MY MOM, NOT YOU ! I LOVE MY MOM, NOT YOU" but... it's complicate.

We'll eat, I'll answer the rest later, thank you all very much :)

Edit : just, we don't have TV, and computer it's for me. No electronic for children :)

[Marianne]

Thoughfull : It's really interesting what you say, really (especially the fact of excitement because as a teacher I have difficulty about this. I am always "ok, well, next »). And with the children, too.

Conuly : You’re right about the situation yes… !

I think it hard to divert their attention. First, because I have a physical weakness, and when my body is tired, my brain is "slow". And… They don’t listen. They don’t hear me. For now, the only thing that I do when there’s screaming & all, it’s… waiting. And say « Okay, you end ? Now, we will… » I don’t think it’s a good things.

August : Augustus, you're right about the personality. I am impressed because they are very young but they have a personality. I love them, not because they are my roomate best friend, but because they have this unique personality. There is Phileas and his curiosity, etc…

On sleep, they don’t get enough sleep. First, because of where we live. We live in a building of 1850 and we hear everything happening around. The oldest needs a machine to sleep because he has a very severe sleep apnea. I think they sleep ... 6, 8 hours per night? They do a lot of nightmares, and one of the two needs diapers during the night - his mother stress him a lot about it, so I don’t want to insist. About the rest : I play a lot with them, I try to give them attention. But I think they want attention from their mother ... I am trying to complete your questionnaire. And pick up your books. I read two educational author : Freinet (my king ! ) and Dolto (well know here, in America? ...). I find it hard to implement what they say.

Thank you very much all - you're awesome.

[martian]

The behavioral difference between a child getting enough sleep and one who is not is astonishing, like night and day. It sounds like the two you're looking after are chronically sleep deprived and that could be a large part of your problem. My own three year olds are just so fragile and easily frustrated when short on sleep - the whole day becomes like trying to skip through a minefield while maintaining a positive attitude and providing nutritious snacks. Is there anything that can be done to improve that situation? Would a radio turned to quiet music or even static block the outside distractions? Maybe running a fan? Some people do well with white noise machines, but I know that can be expensive. Would soft ear plugs be workable for the four year old?

I realize that both you and these children have some hard and unfair situations to deal with, but removing lack of sleep as a stressor can only help.

[Marianne]

They have doctors for sleep - because of sleep apnea, and the psychologist for nightmares. I think they need real silence : we can't have, and they don't support ear plugg. And... I don't have enough monney and I don't have the legal right to change the appartment, because I am a tenant.

I never thought that lack of sleep could be an explanation - it's just such a normal thing that we forget that it is not. thank you :)

(and I'm going to sleep, now. I have a lot to think !

[martian]

Have a good rest, Marianne. I learned the hard way (and am still learning because I can be a bit stubborn like that) that having children meant I had to stop being casual about my own sleep habits. If you want to continue talking about the problem when you can be online again, I'm certain people would be happy to come up with suggestions that might work for your housing situation.

[OkToBeTakei]

I swear if FJ wrote a parenting book it would be pretty damn good. If you look at the diversity of cultures there is, the amount of experience from grandparents down and the amount who can contribute information on all types of special needs, that, along with just the different styles and personalities of parents we have, it would make for good reading.

The problem with most parenting books is they are so one dimensional as they are written from generally just one person's perspective.

[Vex]

I would totally buy a FJ parenting book. It would be amazing.

[August]

White noise! You can buy any number of white noise tracks on itunes, there are also machines which make white noise. I don't know if that will translate, but it's like the sound of running water or an air conditioner or the ocean. White noise covers other noise so that they can sleep.

[formergothardite]

White noise will really help. Sleep deprived children are difficult and when the adult is sleep deprived it can make every little thing the child does seem demonic. Working on more sleep for all of you would be the best place to start.

[Mama Mia]

August (first part) :

Edit : just, we don't have TV, and computer it's for me. No electronic for children :)

Okay, this might be hugely unpopular, but I think you should cut yourself some slack with everything you are trying to juggle and get the kids some movies, or have them watch videos on your computer sometimes, or get one of the electronics for kids that help them with educational games. You are under a lot of pressure, you are working and have disabilities that make you tired. An hour of down time while they watch a show can make a world of difference.

I love all the wonderful advice and suggestions you are getting here !

[formergothardite]

I agree with Mrs. S2004 some sort of educational games or videos to give you a break is not a bad idea.

[twinmama]

Damn, I don't even wipe my kid's face without warning him that it's coming (meaning, "I'm going to clean your face now"), nevermind spanking him!! These kids must just grow up terrified of their parents, or even worse, they don't and they think this is normal.

And I'll get on the unpopular "give the kids some screen time" train too. An hour of Sesame Street has saved my sanity more often than I'd care to admit.

[OkToBeTakei]

Damn, I don't even wipe my kid's face without warning him that it's coming (meaning, "I'm going to clean your face now"), nevermind spanking him!! These kids must just grow up terrified of their parents, or even worse, they don't and they think this is normal.

And I'll get on the unpopular "give the kids some screen time" train too. An hour of Sesame Street has saved my sanity more often than I'd care to admit.

Oh GOD Noooooooo! Sesame St!!! In the interests OF my own sanity I never had that or Barney in my house :lol:

Totally agree though absolutely nothing wrong with a wee bit of technical entertainment.

Even now when my kid is 11 we love to veg out on the sofa to a movie, when she was teeny we made it a 'resting' time and now it is a hobby/time we share picking out old movies or programmes we talk about through the week together.

There really is some lovely kid centric entertainment available which covers both education and fun.

[formergothardite]

SpongeBob has saved my sanity many a time.

[twinmama]

Barney would drive me nuts, but I oddly love Sesame Street. They do great kid versions of tv shows (30 Rock, True Blood) and have guests that I recognize.

[OkToBeTakei]

All I can say is you guys were spared the horror that is CBeebies :lol: