Sparkling Adventures in Child Neglect: Whee! Polyamory

[ohnomoe]

Getting into university is a whole world away from settling in, thriving and graduating. Then again further down the track graduating university is a whole different thing to building a successful career.

The drop out rate is much higher in students who don't have a strong educational background in their family (e.g. mum or dad didn't go to university) which is put down them not having a cultural understanding of higher education, skills relevant to university that their parents have passed onto them, or accurate expectations of what university life will be like. I'd assume that it would be even higher amongst those students who have never participated in any kind of formal education prior to university, though I don't think there are too many of those kids here in Australia to even study.

[August]

Oh, I completely agree. Having taken the STAT I can definitely say it is far too easy as a uni entrance exam. A high school kid would have no trouble with any of it and it doesn't accurately reflect the level of language and reasoning skills a person needs in a university setting.

I'm glad Lauren's kids have a way into uni. My concern is just that there is no way in hell they will be anywhere close to prepared. That's why I think they need to step up the difficulty of the STAT and have bridging classes to help people prepare themselves.

The thought of a child who's never written formally arriving to a university level class gives me shivers. They would be hopelessly hopelessly lost. And aside from the blow to their confidence, those fails and withdraws stay on your record forever.

I'm not against homeschool per say. If you want to "home" educate your child AND expect society to pay for it, then its a reasonable expectation that society should have some say on key education indicators - like literacy and numeracy that is MEASURED, say, quarterly, so that we know your kid can talk and count.

It's not that society wants it's money's worth for the education, it's that a voter needs to be taught to think critically. If the voters are uneducated then government collapses. Allow me to present exhibit A: The US. (I know, gerrymandering and the separation of powers are to blame also)

And, it's per se, not per say.

No matter how high your marks, professors are never obligated to hand out high distinctions and they only do so if they feel the student has demonstrated an exceptionally high level of proficiency that goes above and beyond what is expected of them in all areas.

You live on a different academic planet. Did you know that half of all grades given out in the US are As and Bs? An A average tells you you're in the top 50% of the class! Weeee!

[Annasopinion]

I agree with you, Anna. I strongly believe everyone should have the chance to pursue higher education without being held back by a lack of wealth, but I also strongly believe that homeschooling parents need to be held accountable for their kids' literacy and numeracy skills. If they're not able to do enough that their kids meet certain guidelines I think there needs to be intervention. If the child is burdened with a terrible education the taxpayers will possibly have to keep supporting them via Centrelink all their lives, and that's in nobody's best interests.

Vex, it could be my limited observation, but all the homeschooling / non schooling kids I've known (except one person who was actually privately 'tutored' outside the education system) have come from families that are already somewhat marginalised or fringe dwelling. And homeschooling only serves to further their disadvantage. I think it would be interesting to address education alternatives for these families / children / segment of society rather than have them slip through the net. I know that as I say this that there will be perfectly normal, well adjusted families who home school...but I haven't actually met any.

[August]

Vex, it could be my limited observation, but all the homeschooling / non schooling kids I've known (except one person who was actually privately 'tutored' outside the education system) have come from families that are already somewhat marginalised or fringe dwelling. And homeschooling only serves to further their disadvantage. I think it would be interesting to address education alternatives for these families / children / segment of society rather than have them slip through the net. I know that as I say this that there will be perfectly normal, well adjusted families who home school...but I haven't actually met any.

That's not the case here. Homeschooling is strictly middle class or fundie. Poor people need the free daycare of the public school so they can work. It's more well off people who can sacrifice that second income and homeschool. Fundies, of course, are a special case. It's also partly that middle class priveledge that lets you be dissatisfied with the school offerings and decide you could do it better.

[Annasopinion]

:violin:

[Annasopinion]

:violin: [attachment=0]alice wenzel.JPG[/attachment]

But I DO support your lifestyle Alice, that's the problem!

[happy atheist]

:violin: [attachment=0]alice wenzel.JPG[/attachment]

Admin hat on for this reminder: If anyone gets access to Alice's private posts, you may NOT post them here. :hand:

We'll count this as a win, though, because now her foolishness is able to influence fewer people.

[miffy]

I only know one person who was homeschooled, because she has spina bifida and her parents didn't want her to get behind at school. She's very successful.

I don't think there is anything wrong with homeschooling if it's done by somebody who has the skills to do it.

But schools aren't evil and teachers LOVE IT when parents become involved with their child's education.

[ohnomoe]

I'm not hating on home school in general or even unschooling. Different kids respond differently to educational situations which is completely normal and some will be better off in a home school environment.

It is just that I've seen very little evidence that what Lauren is providing her girls with is a rounded education. In the recent Q&A on Facebook she said she doesn't follow a curriculum or get the girls tested. At best she seems to provide them with the functional basics - basic reading and writing and the level of maths required for simple daily tasks such as shopping. Of course there is also great value in the life experiences that come from travel and exploration and you can give your kids both a comprehensive education and brilliant life experiences... unless you live in Lauren's world...

[August]

I'm not hating on home school in general or even unschooling. Different kids respond differently to educational situations which is completely normal and some will be better off in a home school environment.

It is just that I've seen very little evidence that what Lauren is providing her girls with is a rounded education. In the recent Q&A on Facebook she said she doesn't follow a curriculum or get the girls tested. At best she seems to provide them with the functional basics - basic reading and writing and the level of maths required for simple daily tasks such as shopping. Of course there is also great value in the life experiences that come from travel and exploration and you can give your kids both a comprehensive education and brilliant life experiences... unless you live in Lauren's world...

Lauren is not homeschooling, she's radical unschooling, which is the fancy succinct way of saying she is not burdening their little minds with any knowledge at all. There is a class of homeschooling called unschooling, where the parent changes the curriculum and teaching to follow the child's interests.

[Vex]

Australia is a very different homeschool environment, like August said. Most people who homeschool are educated and have a steady income, so they should be able to provide their kids with a decent education if they put in effort.

And yeah, different academic world. I know of a guy who is of extremely low intelligence (and autistic on top of it, but his intelligence has nothing to do with his autism) who got honour roll in high school and community college. I've seen his work and here, he MIGHT have passed special ed classes but would have absolutely flunked high school. We don't have community college but if he'd done university or TAFE he would have been screwed. The American education system horrifies me for innumerable reasons, and I don't blame the teachers for a second. Our system is far from perfect, but at least money isn't an insurmountable hurdle in accessing higher education.

I love how Lauren (and apparently Alice) think the issue is a lack of support for their 'lifestyle'. No, it's pretty much the child neglect we take issue with. But by all means, continuing thinking that if it lets you feel more persecuted and special.

[Arete]

I don't know what community college August is talking about, but I went to an actual accredited university, and can assure you in the science tracks they don't hand out As and Bs like candy, and As are certainly not 50% of the class. Not even close.

You guys want to compare community colleges to state or private accredited universities in the US? Or an AUS university? Come on. In my area community colleges do not even have the ability to grant Baccalaureates. When you're making comparisons, at least try and control some variables.

[Vex]

No, I don't want to compare community college to university or TAFE. That's why I said we don't have community college here, but that the person I was talking about would have flunked university and TAFE here, whereas in the US they got honour roll. There is nothing in Aus that is analogous to community college. since basically anyone with the grades can attend an accredited university without worrying about the cost. I am very well aware of how different community colleges are to accredited universities in the US or anywhere else. America has some truly excellent universities.

I was wrong - he didn't get honour roll for community college, he just wore his high school honour roll sash to his community college graduation. So, he only managed honour roll for high school. It's still pretty incredible considering by his own admission he spent his time in class either reading goosebumps or napping.

It seems like there are some schools in the US that are very relaxed about grades and others that have much higher standards, which is true here as well. When I attended a public school for a year I got extremely high grades because the work was much easier than it had been in my private school and in many cases I'd already covered the content a year earlier. Neither the US or Australia have even close to the best education systems in the world.

All of this comes from an admittedly limited perspective. I did proof-reading for several of my friends while they were attending community colleges so I have a fairly good idea of the level of work that was expected, but I don't have much firsthand experience with high school level assignments in the US.

In any case, there's no argument that there is no way Lauren's poor girls would be completely out of their depth if they managed to get into uni via the STAT test. I think they'd have to attend a high school with an adult HSC program (they wouldn't have the skills necessary to do the work online by themselves, I don't think - unless you're highly self-motivated online classes can be extremely challenging), do the work step by step, and then maybe they'd have a chance. Without any formal education background it will always be an uphill battle.

Maybe they'd do better at TAFE (which for those who don't know, is sort of a technical college that works with people looking to earn apprenticeships), but even that involves lectures and assignments in a similar vein as university.

Those poor kids. She isn't a radical unschooler, she's just a lazy parent.

[bubblekitty]

I used to wonder how long unschoolers can go on convincing themselves that all those wonderful activities unschoolers list as educational triumphs (you know, learning how to save money to buy something, minecraft, looking up leaves in nature books..) were enough. But I don't really have to wonder as I've known a lot of homeschoolers who burned out and essentially became unschoolers. While the outcomes were all different there was no university and in most cases no completion of apprenticeships either.

Education is about giving your child choices. If you prepare them well going to university will become an option even for one not academically gifted because they will have learned how to work towards that goal. IF they at any point in their life want to drop out and become itinerant hippies they can do that. They can drop out of the system. But you can't just grow up with no formal education and have the choice to go to uni. You have less choice and less options in life than other people and yet the parents think they are raising you with more! That's the weird bit.

[Vex]

Bubblekitty, please tell me you're being snarky about unschooling parents teaching their kids Minecraft...

I agree education is about choices. Thankfully there are some good opportunities for adult education around for these kids if they want to pursue them. I think it would be hard to motivate yourself to go through with it unless you had a particular passion for learning, though. Part of the package in good schools are teachers who instill a passion for learning in the kids they teach, and while I'm sure there are plenty of homeschooling parents who do this I'm not sure how many unschooling parents manage it.

I think before Elijah's death Aisha showed a lot of interest in her surroundings and a lot of natural curiosity, but since his death she seems so withdrawn. She especially seems unhappy whenever Lauren takes them to places with water. She used to play in the water in all the photos and now she doesn't. She seems like a smart, sensitive kid and I think she would flourish if she were gradually brought into a supportive formal education environment. I think they'd all flourish. Those girls need structure and stability.

[haras1972]

Bibliographies - that is all.

I had this drummed into me from about Yr 8 onwards, and I still struggled at uni to do it properly. How anyone expects an unschooled child to turn up at uni, and do bibliographies correctly is beyond me - but uni's expect you to have this skill already, as it's an assumed skill you would learn at any high school in Australia.

[Vex]

I did too and I still sometimes screw them up. I forget to put them in alphabetical order or I forget to insert the edition or something. It's kind of frustrating to get back an essay and there's no concrit on the essay itself, just the damn bibliography because they only write extended comments on the worst facet of your work. Even after all this time at uni I still have run through the guide every single time to check I haven't screwed up. They're tricky! I'm kind of glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks they're hard.

[bubblekitty]

Bubblekitty, please tell me you're being snarky about unschooling parents teaching their kids Minecraft....

Yes I'm being snarky about all the educational wonders unschoolers talk about their kids doing. The same stuff every single kid does and amazingly school does not prevent :lol:

[miffy]

My citations and bibliographies are a weak point too.

I long for school, when all you had to do was do a footnote with a few sources. Instead of backing up everything you say and having to use a specific style.

[August]

I don't know what community college August is talking about, but I went to an actual accredited university, and can assure you in the science tracks they don't hand out As and Bs like candy, and As are certainly not 50% of the class. Not even close.

You guys want to compare community colleges to state or private accredited universities in the US? Or an AUS university? Come on. In my area community colleges do not even have the ability to grant Baccalaureates. When you're making comparisons, at least try and control some variables.

You caught me, that cruddy little community college in California called 'Stanford', and that drop-out factory in New Jersey, 'Princeton'. Why, they're so unaccredited they can't even afford to clean off all the vines growing over their brickwork!

The article stated that "A's and B's still account for about 80 percent of the grades at Stanford," while at Princeton "83 percent of the grades given between 1992 and 1997 fell between A+ and B-, compared with 69 percent between 1973 and 1977."

As Rampell observed,

By the end of the last decade, A’s and B’s represented 73 percent of all grades awarded at public schools, and 86 percent of all grades awarded at private schools, according to the database compiled by Mr. Rojstaczer and Mr. Healy. (Mr. Rojstaczer is a former Duke geophysics professor, and Mr. Healy is a computer science professor at Furman University.)

Fig 1: College Letter Grades Over Time (Rampell).

Rampell, Catherine. "A History of college Grade Inflation." The New York Times. New York Times Co. 14 Jul 2011. Web. 4 Nov 2013.

[August]

I read back further, Aretejo was addressing Vex, not me. But I can speak from experience, as I have been to community college (cheap pre-requisite credits!), and to a super well regarded university so I've seen the difference first hand. I did one degree at a good place, then CC for pre-reqs then another good place using those pre-reqs. This is not my field, but imagine an English major working for a couple of years, then doing Chem and anatomy at CC in order to get into med school.

Community college is a very strange place. Yes, the standards are through the floor. Extra credit in one class meant I was running at 130% towards the end of a hard science class. Often you'll be allowed to drop your worst grade. The material covered on the midterm is not tested again (so you need to remember half as much for the final), lots and lots of grades given for non-academic things like attendance or very simple assignments to reduce the impact of the exam or substantive assignment. While the syllabus says it covers x,y and z it will turn out they don't ask questions about y on the exam, and z was converted to an open book assignment because too many people were failing the exam. Multiple choice exams. Clear instructions on the source of exam questions. High grades for bad writing (yes, mine as well as classmates). Sitting exams staggered over a week so that classmates can collude. That's all I can think of right now, but it was a catalog of ways to make it easy.ETA: I forgot my favorite! The exam do-over, sometimes blind, as in retaking the same exam, sometimes retaking the same or a different version from scratch, but sometimes being given the marked multiple choice exam and given a chance to guess the correct answer on any you got wrong! I had straight As without ever really getting to grips with most of the work. And these credit count the same as credits taught rigorously. That CC anatomy class counts for your medical degree. You can transfer to Harvard from community college. And what credibility does Harvard have if they accept that?

I want to really stress this point: a subject may transfer, it may have a very normal and rigorous- seeming curriculum, but that does not mean that a student who got an A in that subject knows even a significant fraction of what's on the curriculum.

And then on the other hand, the student population of community college is a nightmare in terms of completion. They specialize in non-traditional students: parents, full time workers, high school dropouts. I'll put a ref in my works cited, but most cc students need to do remedial classes, and many use up their full financial aid grant eligibility doing remedial classes and never get to college level classes. I have sympathy for the teachers, when everyone in their class should fail, but they're an adjunct and won't get another subject if that happens. And the college has pressure from the govt to increase pass and completion rates.

But, at the end of the day, don't go to a doctor who did anatomy at CC, and an A at CC means you are breathing. But an A at Princeton means you're breathing, have a pulse and can hold a pencil.

The need for remediation is widespread. When considering all first-time undergraduates, stud­ies have found anywhere from 28 percent to 40 percent of students enroll in at least one re­medial course. When looking at only community college students, several studies have found remediation rates surpassing 50 percent.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/ ... edial.aspx

About two-thirds of low-income community-college students -- and one-third of poor students at four-year colleges -- need remedial (aka “developmentalâ€) education, according to Complete College America, a nonprofit group. But it’s not working: Less than 10 percent of students who start in remedial education graduate from community college within three years, and just 35 percent of remedial students earn a four-year degree within six years.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-3 ... llege.html

[samithemage]

From Sparkles FB:

Has anyone had any experience with a vegetarian alternative to bone broth for reversing tooth decay?

Apparently, the whole not making kids brush their teeth thing isn't working out to well.

[ladyaudley]

hah, I saw that too. was tempted to post "brushing teeth, a well-balanced diet and fluoride help", but didn't. Bone broth? is that even a thing against tooth decay?

[RachelB]

hah, I saw that too. was tempted to post "brushing teeth, a well-balanced diet and fluoride help", but didn't. Bone broth? is that even a thing against tooth decay?

It appears to be a Weston Price thing.

[Ms Jess]

hah, I saw that too. was tempted to post "brushing teeth, a well-balanced diet and fluoride help", but didn't. Bone broth? is that even a thing against tooth decay?

Is there such a thing as reversing tooth decay at all? I mean, you can get rid of the teeth or fill them, I imagine you could even slow down decay, but outright reversal? I don't think that's scientifically possible.