Ahhh...Girls At Hershey Park Dress Immodestly!!

[debrand]

therebelution.com/blog/2013/03/those-who-were-different/

A young man goes to Hershey Park in Pennsylvania during the summer time and is shocked that women dress in summer clothing. Because he is young, I won't snark on him personally but I do find it troubling that he has been trained to view women as objects. He and his kind would deny that claim but if women are responsible for keeping men from having sexual thoughts that is just another form of objectification of women.

Women are not responsible for men's thoughts. Period. Women are under no obligation to protect me from thinking dirty thoughts. Noticing the opposite sex or having a stray fantasy is normal and not wrong. Viewing the other person as an object who is responsible for either your satisfaction or thoughts is wrong.

I know, I know, I should have seen it coming. It’s summer. It’s an amusement park. It’s our secular culture, for goodness’ sake! For some reason, though, it hit me differently this time. Anywhere I looked, I was bombarded with it.

What really bothered me wasn’t as much what they were wearing, however, but how they were wearing it. Scattered throughout the entire park, students were wearing their school’s t-shirts. What could be wrong with that?! But left and right, girls had somehow found a way to get around a standard dress code. Whether it be rolled up or even cut apart, they simply didn’t want to conceal themselves.

How could people dress this way?!, I thought. What are they trying to gain? They’re just going to reveal themselves to everyone?! It was almost impossible to look anywhere without finding this kind of dress smack dab in front of you.

and

Among everyone else, these two girls had chosen to wear long skirts and regular t-shirts, one of which said “Purity is in.†These two young ladies stood out — not because of immodesty, but because of the modesty that they portrayed.

At that moment, I was immensely grateful that God had placed those two girls at that park to remind me just how appreciative I should be of a girl’s modesty. I was so thankful, in fact, that I almost walked over to the girls and thanked them myself. Looking back, I should have. Sometimes I don’t think girls realize just how important their modesty can be to us guys.

What a person wears to a park on a hot summer day says nothing about their character, their level of compassion or their intellect, so why should it matter?

[Claddagh]

Women are not responsible for men's thoughts. Period. Women are under no obligation to protect me from thinking dirty thoughts. Noticing the opposite sex or having a stray fantasy is normal and not wrong. Viewing the other person as an object who is responsible for either your satisfaction or thoughts is wrong.

Exactly! People should be held responsible for their own thoughts and actions.

The scary thing is so many of these fundies and groups think that you owe them something because they had this or that thought. Today I saw a guy jogging wearing nothing but short shorts, socks, and sneakers. Just because I saw a good looking guy jogging doesn't mean that he owes me anything.

Putting people on a pedestal like that is also frightening. It strips away any humanity and makes the person into an object. The person also often falls from that pedestal.

[erunerune]

Darn it, and I had managed to forget that the rebelution existed! aren't they long overdue for another "Modesty Survey" laff-fest???????

ETA: I read the actual post and noticed that Young Offended Eyes' friend commented that the girls they deemed modestly dressed were "respectable." So girls who don't wear their t-shirts the way guys think they should clearly aren't worthy of basic human respect according to the douchelution? So sad and scary.

[gezykah]

How exactly am I suppose to believe women are responsible for men's thoughts and actions yet we need to submit to them? Women sure can go from weak to powerful then back again when it's convenient for people that don't want to just let us be.

[Incognito22]

Among everyone else, these two girls had chosen to wear long skirts and regular t-shirts, one of which said “Purity is in.†These two young ladies stood out — not because of immodesty, but because of the modesty that they portrayed.

It's probably just easier to hide the flask of liquor and pack of cigarettes under all that garb.

[debrand]

It's probably just easier to hide the flask of liquor and pack of cigarettes under all that garb.

I watch Locked Up Abroad on Netflix. If I ever become a drug mule, I am so wearing a long skirt and purity shirt. Maybe the airport guards will think a super modest Christian wouldn't smuggle drugs and ignore me.

Brett Harris Says:

March 8th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

Julie Anne: Thank you for sharing a very important point. Teachings on modesty have swerved dangerously towards legalism and judgmentalism. Your warning is appropriate.

We decided to share this post from Nathan because we felt he wasn’t focused on some arbitrary Modesty Test. His concern wasn’t with how “short†or how “low†— but with the obvious attempts of the young women to reveal themselves by altering their school shirts and uniforms (revealing their hearts as much as their bodies).

Furthermore, it seemed that Nathan’s aim in the article was to express appreciation for modesty — which is a real virtue and deserves appreciation. I didn’t see any attempt to define or enforce his own standards of modesty, but rather to recognize that while many girls strive to reveal themselves, other put effort into being modest — and deserve acknowledgement and thanks.

That is what I took away from the article.

Brett tries to explain the writer's point and makes it sound worse. How does what the young women wear say anything about their hearts? If it was summer, why would anyone wear a school uniform?

[Izzybee]

Hershey Park has a water park inside its regular park, kind of threaded around the regular rides, all in one. It's like going to a public pool and complaining about immodesty - people are there to get wet!

[erunerune]

I watch Locked Up Abroad on Netflix. If I ever become a drug mule, I am so wearing a long skirt and purity shirt. Maybe the airport guards will think a super modest Christian wouldn't smuggle drugs and ignore me.

Brett tries to explain the writer's point and makes it sound worse. How does what the young women wear say anything about their hearts? If it was summer, why would anyone wear a school uniform?

Regarding the portion I bolded: uh, any type of "modesty test" or standard is always going to be arbitrary, you dumbass. And who is he to assume whatever reason the girls were wearing their shirts a certain way? As mentioned earlier, wearing your t-shirt a certain way is not necessarily a statement of anything other than "gee, it's hot out today, I wish these horny rebelutionaries would quit giving me their stares of shallow judgement."

[Claddagh]

I googled "Modesty Test" and the results were disturbing to say the least.

[Seal]

I googled "Modesty Test" and the results were disturbing to say the least.

Oh Lord, I had to do it too... Of course, "Secret Keeper Girl" was the top result. "Bellies are very intoxicating".... hah at least until they have 1000 kids

[Incognito22]

I googled "Modesty Test" and the results were disturbing to say the least.

Ugh, you had to go there! Well, I followed like a dumb sheep. I do remember the shorts test in 1st grade. The shorts had to be longer than your fingers when your arms were down. I think the test should be more who the hell gets defrauded by a first grader in jams?

[Claddagh]

Oh Lord, I had to do it too... Of course, "Secret Keeper Girl" was the top result. "Bellies are very intoxicating".... hah at least until they have 1000 kids

I asked Brother Claddagh about this.

Me: "Are bellies very intoxicating to men?"

Him: "Where are you reading this?!"

Me: "It's from a modesty test."

Him: "These people are disturbing me. Some things are better left unanswered, unasked, and not known."

[tuckerphez]

Hershey Park has a water park inside its regular park, kind of threaded around the regular rides, all in one. It's like going to a public pool and complaining about immodesty - people are there to get wet!

^^THIS^^

Seriously, I haven't been to Hershey Park in quite a while, but if I remember correctly, there are sections where you are *gasp* allowed to wear bathing suits! Because you're in the water park section!

[Green Glass]

Noticing the opposite sex or having a stray fantasy is normal and not wrong. Viewing the other person as an object who is responsible for either your satisfaction or thoughts is wrong.

This is so true! They just don't get it. If they are the ones having the "dirty thoughts" and they are the ones who feel that those thoughts are wrong, they are the ones who have the problem, not the women.

[Jenny]

Among everyone else, these two girls had chosen to wear long skirts and regular t-shirts, one of which said “Purity is in.†These two young ladies stood out — not because of immodesty, but because of the modesty that they portrayed.

Actually, these young ladies would stand out to me because I've always wondered "can you ride a stand up roller coaster in a skirt?"

Maybe females shouldn't ride roller coaster or any rides?

I have seen Skirts-only families at amusement parks, but most of them were wearing very long (below knees) culottes.

And really is his business anywhay what someone wears to the park? If you have the body or self confidence to wear a bikini top and short shorts, go for it.

:twocents-mytwocents:

[burntnorton]

I read through the replies to that post and was heartened by the number of people who called out the poster and the blog hosts for the damage wrought by modesty culture - objectification and shaming of girls, girls internalizing the message that the female body is dirty, a paradoxical obsession with the female body on the part of boys, etc. All stuff that the most cursory observation of any culture where female modesty and sexual purity is strictly policed would tell you. At least someone was speaking truth from a female perspective

Then I read the Modesty Survey results. Holy crap. The narrative responses were like a textbook on how purity culture is rape culture. Again and again, I saw the same tautology - such and such is okay unless it's done seductively. How do they know if it's done seductively? If it elicits sexual thoughts from a male, it must have been done seductively. It couldn't be that the male was just a normal boy or man who happened to have his hormones up or happened to be attracted to a particular girl. It was the girl or woman's fault for basically existing in the world. It was absolutely appalling. What the fuck are these assailed doing to their daughters and sons when the boys are so offended/titillated by a girl lifting up her skirt above her knees to step over something and the girls are paralyzed with fear lest a stray movement or misplaced purse strap cause men to sin by reminding them she has tits and an ass?

[Peas n carrots]

Then I read the Modesty Survey results. Holy crap. The narrative responses were like a textbook on how purity culture is rape culture. Again and again, I saw the same tautology - such and such is okay unless it's done seductively. How do they know if it's done seductively? If it elicits sexual thoughts from a male, it must have been done seductively. It couldn't be that the male was just a normal boy or man who happened to have his hormones up or happened to be attracted to a particular girl. It was the girl or woman's fault for basically existing in the world. It was absolutely appalling. What the fuck are these assailed doing to their daughters and sons when the boys are so offended/titillated by a girl lifting up her skirt above her knees to step over something and the girls are paralyzed with fear lest a stray movement or misplaced purse strap cause men to sin by reminding them she has tits and an ass?

For what it's worth the modesty survey is probably skewed by the fundeez. I don't think the average male is trolling the Internet looking for modesty surveys....they could be trolling looking for far less modest women :lol:

I'm at the point in my life that I just don't give a shit about what people look like naked. I like to go to the Korean spa, where you see lots of naked women. It's all the same basic parts, just variation on the theme. No big deal...we are all born that way. I don't see as many naked men, and although jangly junk makes me giggle it's the same thing...no big deal. For a group of people who claim to worship God's creation they are sure obsessed about covering it up.

[TouchMeFall21]

The last time I went to Hershey Park, it was for a Phish concert in the early '90's. There were LOTS of women there in flowy full-legnth skirts and tunics, with hair halfway down their back or longer. And yet, I imagine these women wouldn't fit the bill for fundies either.

[lexiloumarie]

I must hit Orthodox summer camp day everytime I go because I only end up seeing a bunch of frum kids everywhere. Kippahs on coasters and everything. Girls with long capris under skirts. I need to hit a more immodest day lol.

[thetabmeister]

Having been raised in extreme fundamentalism with doses of dominionism/Vision Forum and ATI/IBLP/Gothardism and a lot of other wackos I've never even seen discussed here, in independent Baptist churches in the south.............all the posts on this topic are really resonating with me. And I completely agree with y'all. I think I'm going to bookmark this page for ammo in future discussions with rape-culture-minded people, which I still seem to encounter far too frequently even after having fled Baptist-dom.

I still struggle with dressing myself because I can't shake the feeling of responsibility for how others react to me. And it goes way deeper than that; when you're in the movement, you get taught the "responsibility for their reactions" mindset down to every small detail, from the way you speak to the way you walk to the way you sit to the way you arrange your hands and feet while sitting. It's mind-numbing, and it has completely permeated my way of thinking. I am actively trying to retrain my mind regarding all that. Because underneath it all, I absolutely refuse to accept that I am responsible for other people's actions. I wonder if a healthy antidote to the toxic thinking I'd been programmed into for years is embracing the attitude of personal responsibility; at the surface, that sounds like something the fundies would teach, but I don't mean it in any way they would. I mean that each person is solely and only responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of others. I sort of felt like the topic of responsibility was a spiritual litmus test (or competition) with the fundies, if you are responsible for your own actions, you're good, but if you can effectively manage and control (or be responsible for) the reactions of all those around you, then you are the best and truest Christian. But to me you're just a manipulating sociopath with an agenda. I know this is rambling, but I've been so steeped in false mindsets that I still struggle to this day putting into words what I've learned and what I now think or then thought is/was right and wrong. :/

[AnywhereButHere]

I must hit Orthodox summer camp day everytime I go because I only end up seeing a bunch of frum kids everywhere. Kippahs on coasters and everything. Girls with long capris under skirts. I need to hit a more immodest day lol.

We were there last summer and saw a whole group like that. It was broiling out, and all we wanted to do was get in the Lazy River and float all day. :)

In the regular park area we saw a group of girls in their long black or grey skirts and long sleeved shirts who looked like they were developing heat rash. The boys in the group all had long pants but at least had on short sleeved shirts. Then we went over to the water park and saw a woman whose butt was eating her bathing suit, so we really ran the gamut that day. :D I did notice that the religious group never went over to the water park area. It's too bad ,because while they did all look like they were having fun, they could've used a nice, refreshing water ride. I guess that even getting their clothes wet would be seen as immodest though....

[debrand]

Isn't part of being modest not standing out? So a girl wearing a long skirt in an amusement park is going to stand out. Why not wear appropriate clothing that doesn't show your breasts or butt but also, does not make you stand out? They could have worn longish shorts and a t-shirt. Of course, no one would have noticed how godly these young ladies. How are these young ladies any different than the ones in the skimpy suits? They are still seeking attention

On a more positive note, I'm encouraged by all the young ladies in the comment section who are standing up to modesty shaming. I notice that other posters are using fundie code words in an attempt to silence them. "You are being too emotional." "You're being judgmental (toward Nathan)"

Also, none of those who disagree with the article have been rude but Brett felt he had to warn everyone anyway

Brett Harris Says:

March 8th, 2013 at 4:54 pm

To Those Who Disagree: Whether you agree with Nathan’s perspective on modesty or not, please heed Abigail’s encouragement to communicate out of love.

This is an important issue, but even if you have something important to say, please don’t forget that Nathan is a 16-year-old young man who is *trying* to please the Lord (even if you think he is misguided in this area).

Also, keep in mind that those of you who have been negatively affected by modesty teachings probably *agreed* with Nathan when you were sixteen. If he’s truly wrong help him to see it gently and graciously. Talk to him the way you’d want someone to have talked to you when you were his age.

If the problem with modesty teachings is that they engender judgmentalism (among other things), then the solution should be grace, not reverse judgmentalism.

Of course, among fundies even polite disagreement is viewed as offensive so what seems calm and rational to me probably sounds angry to a fundie.

[erunerune]

Isn't part of being modest not standing out? So a girl wearing a long skirt in an amusement park is going to stand out. Why not wear appropriate clothing that doesn't show your breasts or butt but also, does not make you stand out? They could have worn longish shorts and a t-shirt. Of course, no one would have noticed how godly these young ladies. How are these young ladies any different than the ones in the skimpy suits? They are still seeking attention

On a more positive note, I'm encouraged by all the young ladies in the comment section who are standing up to modesty shaming. I notice that other posters are using fundie code words in an attempt to silence them. "You are being too emotional." "You're being judgmental (toward Nathan)"

Also, none of those who disagree with the article have been rude but Brett felt he had to warn everyone anyway

Of course, among fundies even polite disagreement is viewed as offensive so what seems calm and rational to me probably sounds angry to a fundie.

So basically, 16 yo fundie boys are special snowflakes who would not be able to handle the message that "Labelling girls and women as worthy or unworthy of your respect based on your perception of how they wear their t-shirts is NOT OK because *so many reasons*". What happened to "Do Hard Things" Brett?

[Talitha Cumi]

I googled "Modesty Test" and the results were disturbing to say the least.

The most disturbing thing is that they have little girls modeling the tests. If you're turned on by too much chest skin or "future cleavage" on a six-year-old, you have issues that aren't going to be solved by her covering up.

[kpmom]

And what about the guys at Hershey Park? Were they all dressed in 3 piece suits? No bare chests, board shorts and flip flops to defraud those young ladies he was so concerned about?

Come to think of it, how was this innocent 16 year old dressed?