[Repost] Josie Duggar update?

[defrauding]

carter said:

Has anyone heard any recent news concerning Josie Duggar's health? When she was born, the doctors said she was at risk for numerous problems and I haven't read anything recently other than that she is at home and stable now that she weighs more. I showed my husband some pictures of her (he's in the medical field) and he said she has the look of a child with possible problems (specifically, the far apart bulging eyes) but that there was really no way to know. While I can't stand this family, I certainly would never wish harm to any child and I worry that Josie's needs will be abandoned by this over-sized tribe.

 

 

 

Lillybee said:

You are not alone in that. I read recently that Josie is still on oxygen at night so I think there may be some lingering issues.

 

 

 

marmalade said:

Actually, she's been off O2 for a while, is starting to make attempts at walking and...is on the freaking BOOK TOUR right now. She was in NYC on the Today Show this morning with the rest of the clan. She was holding her own bottle and looked small, but pretty good (aside from the hideous green flower they put on her head).

 

 

 

Feberin said:

I could be wrong but don't a lot Duggar babies have the bulging eyes? Josie's look worse due to the lack of fat on her face but I thought a lot of them had rather large eyes.

 

 

 

Koala said:

Bless her little heart That sweet baby needs so much more than her idiot parents will ever give her.

 

 

 

Patsy said:

I watched their appearance on that daytime talk show and was kind of confused by one of the presenters saying "She looks great" after Michelle said "You can't even tell she was dangerously premmie!" I mean, she DOES look great, compared to six months ago, but she doesn't look totally normal - just not as drastically small and sickly as she did. I would've probably responded "When will she catch up", or something. I seriously think her parents ARE in denial of the fact that she's NOT an average non-premmie one-year-old. I'm not saying she has horrible health problems they haven't noticed, but I wish they'd be more on-the-ball.

 

 

 

Creaky Steel said:

What difference does it make what state of development Josie is in? They can do NOTHING to change it, and I am certain that they would not risk a visit from CPS if they failed to take her to recommended therapies. The early childhood intervention program follows those babies until they are 3 years old, and many of the therapies are paid for that way. They are famous. You don't think their medical team follows up with them? The Duggars cannot NOT know that she is not normal ht/wt for a full term 1 yo. There were, after all, 18 one-year-olds in their home before her. There is simply nothing they can DO about it. She has to grow and develop at her own pace, and she is obviously doing well.

 

 

I'm grandmother to a 30 weeker who is now 6, skinny, and pale, but is taller than his classmates and has a genius IQ, especially in math. He is who he is. No one could predict at his birth what he would be like now. Same for Josie.

 

 

 

FloraDoraDolly said:

Tonight's episode (which was filmed a few months ago) showed Josie getting around in one of those baby walkers with wheels. Later, she was standing unassisted and pushing it herself. At one point, she was also walking with Michelle holding her hand. If she isn't walking on her own now, it looks like she'll be able to do it someday soon. There was also the Today Show clip where Josie was holding her bottle with both hands. Based on the evidence, I don't see anything that looks like cerebral palsy, which is a good sign.

 

 

 

Patsy said:

I think she's doing well, and I don't think they're about to sit around saying "My, ain't she healthy!" while she's turning blue. But I think they expect her to be normal, they'll outwardly pretend she's normal, and if she's not normal... well, too bad for her.

 

Life-preserving ones? Sure. But I don't see the parents sitting down for hour upon patient hour to do therapies that will help her to thrive, if that would help her. This is not a good family to be born into if you have special needs, and it bothers me that before she has caught up to a non-premmie, non-adjusted age baby (which she may well do - she has done fantastically) they're insisting that she's totally normal and you can't tell she had such serious health problems.

For all I know the issues with her intestines have resolved, she has no further allergies and never will, and the ONLY thing that is different about her is her appearance. Even if that is the case, I wish they'd acknowledge it, but in this family differences cannot be acknowledged.

 

 

Hope.survivorsucks said:

They actually can help her progress develomentally with therapies. I hope they are doing them, OT, speech, PT, etc, whatever she needs. She actually about 18 months, although 15 when you adjust, so not walking yet isn't out of the range of normal. Normal is up to 18 months as I recall. She sounds like she's doing well from what is being said. I've never heard her talk but we don't get much besides the occassional quick look at her. Most babies born as early as her have some long-term impact, hopefully it will be mild. And there is a world of difference between a 24 week preemie and a 30 week, those extra 6 weeks are huge.

 

 

 

AthenaC said:

 

On the other hand, we don't know what kind of attention the babies get. Josie might get more attention from her parents and her siblings than she would get from two parents alone.

 

 

 

Letgo said:

Would Jim Bob and Michelle accept help for Josie if it came from federal or state programs or the local school district? The Pope baby, born at 24 weeks gestation, a little more than three months after Josie, has qualified for occupational, speech, and physical therapies. He is able to hold onto to furniture and stand, is sitting, rolling over, saying mama, and cruising. I found his mother's blog after she was on the show talking with Michelle. The Duggars have never mentioned any special needs that Josie might have; is she really just very small but perfectly healthy now? I wonder if they would they admit that Josie is delayed, if she is.

 

 

I once found a fundie blog with a link to homeschool "therapies" for special needs children. It was all about how you did not need any government assistance, therapy, evalution, etc. Regardless of what needs your child might have, you can do it all at home! With no training! No professionals involved! I was horrified. Really? Your child with autism who does not speak needs nothing from anyone. The family can do it all. They mentioned chldren with Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy, spina bifida, autism, behavior problems-probably just needed a thicker plumbing line there, blindness, hearing impairments, etc. All of these children can be helped at home without any professionals involved. I am fearful that the Duggars may have the same mindset.

 

 

Does anyone know what the Gothard stand is on receiving aid for children with special needs?

 

 

 

xDreamerx said:

As someone who has CP I just wanted to say that I stood with aid of furniture and other support as well, but there is a difference between that and being able to walk completely. A major component of cerebral palsy is balance. To be honest, seeing those clips made me hopeful for her....but then seeing the previews for next week where Jill said she had had a seizure made me dubious. Obviously, we hope that all children are healthy but for her sake I hope that even more. The less disabled she is, the better off she'll be in that house. I feel so sorry for her thinking that she will have to grow up there. I mean, yes all the other kids did too. But when you don't have physical issues your chances of living an independent life are easier than someone who requires a lot of assistance. I hope she grows up to be someone with a sense of grit and tenacity because she'll need it with those kooks.

 

 

 

bananacat said:

I agree that the parents are in denial of how serious Josie's condition is. I think they expect her to be a little behind in development for awhile, but then to catch up in a few years with no interference at all. I fear that they will expect the same things of her that they expect from the healthy daughters, such as cleaning the whole palace and eventually having a dozen babies of her own. There's a good chance that Josie will have some kind of long-term health problem, like autism, ADD, or a learning disability. And these are things that fundies will "treat" with prayer and discipline, rather than actual therapy.

 

 

 

Hopewell said:

My 2 cents....

They will do EVERYTHING to make sure she is healthy--too big a risk to their reputation, INCOME, etc. Jim-Bob is first/foremost a politician--as evidenced from the well-rehearsed talking points in each interview. They are not going to let anything happen to Josie. The others...welll....

 

 

Bekah said:

 

I do hope all is well with little Josie.

Does anybody else wonder how JimBob and Michelle have ducked pregnancy this long? I do believe this is the longest they have had Michelle unpregnant. She's not nursing, and hasn't nursed in a while, so that can't be it. I wonder if they've changed their mindset on birth control? Even if they're using the rhythm method, that's birth control. I'm not saying it to be snarky, I just think that it's great if they are, I don't think anybody could blame them and it shows real responsibility for their family (something the Duggars aren't really known for). I just think they should come clean about it. It's okay to change your convictions, isn't that why God supposedly gives us these challenges? So we can learn and grow from them?

Sorry if my train of thought is a bit awkward, I have a hot grouchy squirmy toddler on my lap

 

 

emmiedahl said:

I hope she's okay, but I do think that the J.Crew will avoid government intervention like therapy, etc. Which sucks, she is so tiny. I know she was a preemie, but she is the size of my 7 mo old son and not even as advance afaik. Early intervention is crucial.

 

 

 

failsafe said:

 

 

 

Michelle is 46 now, my guess is that her fertility is beginning to decrease.

 

 

 

carter said:

If my question offended anyone, my apologies. I was just concerned about Josie... no need to be defensive. I'm pretty sure a 30-week baby is a whole different ballgame and that every child is different, so I'm not sure we can really predict Josie's future based on another child. I hope she will soar through childhood with no problems, but my fear is that she'll have problems and they will not be adequately treated.

 

 

I don't believe that JB's position as a politician (I don't think he's currently in office, is he?) has any bearing on what they actually DO at home... just how they appear to others. My feeling (and I could be wrong) is that what we see and reality are 2 totally different things, so who knows what the truth is about any of them. We are only given the party line and whatever JB and DQ allow past the final editing.

 

 

I doubt CPS will get involved as this is one of those sticky situations involving the freedom of religion. Not saying I don't wish every day that those kids would be in a different family, but the consequences of setting that precedence would be large and far-reaching and I'm not sure I want the government telling us what religion to follow. It's definitely a difficult pill to swallow.

 

 

 

xDreamerx said:

 

I don't think anyone was offended by you Just the Duggars. I understand religious freedom but couldn't them not getting her proper therapy be considered abuse? I know of cases where JWs and other people have been forced to give their children insulin, blood transfusions etc. Those cases were "life saving" which I guess is the crux.

 

 

bananacat said:

 

There's a big difference between being physically healthy and being emotionally healthy. If Josie had problems with walking, hearing, vision, anything that is measurable, of course the parents would get her the help she needs so they don't look bad. I am much more worried about things like learning and behavior problems, which they will try to solve their own way and will lower Josie's quality of life.

 

[defrauding]

Yeah, I think your last sentence is the key... it has to be "life saving" for them to get involved to the point of forcing the family to do something (though honestly, I have known people who were targeted by CPS for far less). My fear is that Josie may have ongoing disability and that because it isn't life-threatening, they will treat it with prayer and she will never have her needs met. However, I'd be surprised if that isn't already happening with other Duggar kids. I've wondered if James has ADHD (REAL ADHD... not the catch-all people love to tag onto energetic kids). I'm not sure we'd know if any of the kids had learning disabilities as I'm not sure even the Duggars know since they're not being tested to my knowledge.

I wonder with the older girls in charge [and truly being old enough to be a Mom--and lots of other young moms have dealt with pre-term babies] if they will approach "raising" Josie a bit differently--just a thought. I do share your concerns though I do get the [perhaps wrong] impression that the girls probably handle all but "errors of theology" and I don't really see any of them as physically abusive. The parents, too, have likely had to moderate their views on spanking, etc, to deal with incidents that occur while the camera crew is on hand. I am 50 and I can say spanking was the norm in most families growing up. It does not have to be a "beating." While just about everyone I know has been to therapy, it's usually been due to horrible marriages rather than upbringing. It's tragic that some parents [sadly both secular and extreme Christian] go for Michael Pearl style discipline, but I don't think there's a huge worry of that in the Duggar home of today. Too much in the pubic eye if for no other reason.

I have several friends who had micropreemies, born at the same gestational age or earlier as Josie. One of them is turning five in a couple of months, and the therapies and adjustments they still have to make for her are far beyond just a little prayer and a let go and let god.

The Duggars are really doing that child a disservice by not taking advantage of all Early Intervention has to offer her.

We need to remember that it has not been confirmed that they have refused or accepted anything. I have a friend, too, whose son was under a pound. He's 22 now and fine and had no intervention because there wasn't much available then--every child is different. I don't want to sound rude--I just don't want the "John David may be autistic" kind of speculation to get going--there's so much we can snark about that's true after all!

I could be wrong, but I'd be really surprised if anyone here has ill-feelings for any of the kids except possibly Smuggar. They are victims in this and even Smuggar never really had much of a chance to be an average person... brainwashed from pretty much birth. So, for me at least, speculating about the kids having problems is not about judgment of the kids... it is about compassion and really struggling to accept that they may not have the opportunities that other kids have... something that can be even more detrimental for a child or young adult with untreated disabilities.

Well I do think we can safely say they aren't visiting the EI therapies while they are on the road. Artmomma is local to me (I know her...) and we are just across the river from Arkansas. Both of us have friends across the river that have done EI in Arkansas. They have a pretty comprehensive EI program so I suspect she isn't getting all she could if they were at home.

I don't think she should be on the book tour.

Totally agree. Perhaps it's a few token appearances and she'll skip the rest?

Gosh--I just can't shut up today!

I don't imagine TLC would stand by and let the kids be abused [at least in that sense]. I really doubt that ANYTHING actionable would go in with "outsiders" around in ANY QF home. After all Vision Forum puts out information on what to do if CPS shows up--they definitely fear outsiders. Again, too, the politician thing--JimBob still has "ambitions" and he would not want an "outtake" of him smacking a kid to surface in later years!! I DO think he has a temper [we've seen flashes of it] but I would bet on "Bible Abuse"--hours of prayer and Bible study over anything else with all but the little kids at this point. And, he DOES manage to control his temper when the cameras are there. Still, if a kid had any visible real emotional problems they probably would not get therapy--unless from a pastor [many DO actually have counseling degress and specialize in counseling and not leading a church].

Sadly the biggest "abuse" is the size of the family--who really ever gets any REAL one-on-one attention? And who is really watching anyone but Josie that closely?

I found this video that was posted in April... Josie was still using oxygen whenever it was recorded...

http://youtu.be/5uYsxVqEERk

Edited to remove off-topic comments

I consider myself well mannered and I was only spanked once. It was really negative and frightening for me. I would never spank my own children. I don't think being well mannered requires physical punishment.

@ Hopewell, is this CPS advice on the VF website?

I don't understand how you could possibly know this. Do you ask every well mannered child you come across if they are spanked at home?

My kids are very well-mannered--they call people ma'am/sir and generally make me proud. I get compliments all the time. The oldest was swatted once or twice and the others--never.

In my experience, you can tell spanked children because they are wild and need extreme intervention in order to behave. ymmv.

Based on the video, I surmise that Jill has been trained by OTs and/or PTs on working with Josie.

Much like breastfed or formula fed kids I can't tell the spanked or unspanked ones apart by the time my kid got to school.

Yup, like treemom, I must be honest that I can't tell spanked/non spanked kids apart. Its not like they lose a little of their sparkles everytime they are spanked or not spanked.

We don't spank and there are a number of fundie/QF families who are outspoken against spanking.

As for Josie: Whatever I might think of the Duggars, I don't believe that they will not get Josie the help she requires, whether for physical or developmental needs. They have enough older kids to hold the fort whilst one of them takes her to therapy. Or they could even send one of the older kids with her (I'd love to believe this wouldn't happen, but I am not convinced).

For so long people were CONVINCED that JD was aspergers and that the evil Duggars were denying him help. People were supposed to be driving that Idle Speculation Bus, but the speculation along the way became fact. Now JD is the Duggar darling. There is enough to snark on, without making assumptions, IMO.

My son was born full term right around Josie's due date so adjusted they are about the same age. He's just in the last couple weeks started walking on his own and is still unsteady. So Josie seems to be doing pretty well to me. I hope the Duggars get her whatever help she needs. I feel like Josie does get special attention compared to the other children so hopefully this will help.

I think the Duggars definately spank just not on camera. On the very first special there was a scene where James or one of the other boys was acting up and Michelle came over and grabbed his hand tightly and whispered in his ear. He stopped fussing. It seemed to me that she ordinarily would have spanked but restrained herself to threatening.

I'm curious if any of the QF families we follow here are anti-spank, or to whom you are referring? I seldom meet Evangelical or Fundie Christians who don't try to argue that spanking is mandated by God in the Bible and that use spanking as a disciplinary tool. There are the 5 quotes in Proverbs (I think everyone is familiar with them) that are always used as the foundation to this argument. I say this as someone who is very entrenched in the culture as an Evangelical Christian myself, however, I go against the tide on many issues to include spanking. I don't spank and I have what I would consider extremely well-mannered, polite and generally just cool kids.

In my small group, we just finished reading Sheparding a Child's Heart by: Ted Tripp. There are several sections that cover Biblical discipline and the use of the "rod." It brought about an excellent debate amongst us as a few of us were against the use of the rod, while others see it as our God given duty as Christian parents. It would take me too long to explain all of our various viewpoints, to include all of the research I did on the Hebrew translation of "rod," and how those passages are taken out of context, etc. It was an interesting discussion. Not every point in the book was bad, but the spanking chapters rubbed me completely the wrong way.

All that to say; I think Ted Tripp's, and other like-minded Christians, views on discipline are very well received by many different groups of Christians, but in particular, the more fundamentalist groups. I would be very surprised to learn that any of the Fundies we talk about here DON'T spank.

We read Sheparding a Child's Heart when our kids were little. It was... um.... interesting. Your small group might be interested in reading Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson for a different perspective. We also love any of Max Lucado's parenting books. Sally Clarkson wrote Mission of a Mother's Heart from a mom's perspective and I LOVED it.

I don't know if any of the people discussed on here don't spank. I used to belong to a gentle parenting forum for Christians and there are a number of QF families who don't spank.

It's refreshing to know that there are some conservative groups who are anti-spanking.

[defrauding]

My guess is that the Duggars will not admit to any problems Josie has unless they are physically evident and they can't hide them. Their whole spiel is about children being a blessing and the power of their prayers to save Josie would take a hit if she does have problems. I hope for Josie's sake she doesn't have any problems.

As someone who had speech therapy as a child and had a hearing problem due to other health issues, early intervention is key. Its not only key to help the individual progress but it's better for the child emotionally. I know Josie will be mostly around her own siblings but she'll be on stage at some point with her family and around other kids at ATI camps, and kids and adults can be incredibly cruel to children that have speech and hearing disorders. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Some parents don't recognize that their children need speech therapy because they are used to how their children speak. (My parents fought for me to get it).

It's also important because critical parts of her brain are being wired right now in her language centre. Learning disabilities in the early years of life can have lasting effects. Different word sounds that don't sound alike to a normal person sound completely the same to me and its due to those early years.

Edited to fix a grammatical mistake.

Really? Wild and needs extreme intervention? And exactly how do you know that every"wild and need extreme intervention" child is spanked?

Not this spanked kid. Or my siblings.

I think all too often "spanking" is used to describe a very large range of discipline. I wasn't beat with a pipe. Or anything for that matter. Nor was I ever hit with ANY object. I was spanked, as in, hit on my ass when I was REALLY bad.

I was usually the quiet kid in the store staring at the "wild" kid throwing the temper tantrum.

Thank you tvr. I will look into the other books you mentioned. I love Max Lucado. I honestly have never been big on reading parenting books, I just don't believe that there is a one-size-fits-all for parenting and feel like some of these books can really mess with mind and cause you to do things that go against your instincts. I do feel though that it can be beneficial to read some of these differing viewpoints as long as you can take them in, dilute them a bit, use common sense and parenting instincts and form your own opinions. I see people who take these books so seriously and try overzealously to live by the theories presented to the detriment of their children. Case in point: a good friend of mine read Baby Wise and faithfully applied the scheduling concepts with her daughter who subsequently had serious issues resulting from failure to thrive.

I also frequently read from Gentle Chrisitan parenting blogs and in fact, found a lot of good rebuttals to some of Tripp's emphatic pro-spanking stance on said blogs.

These are the same people who were told, two decades ago, by one person, that the birth control pill causes abortion, and have now lived their entire lives around that idea, despite the fact that they had to have encountered someone along the way that told them they were wrong. I can imagine them hearing "There's nothing wrong that we can tell right now," once, and going with, "She totally going to be totally fine in every way forever!" I don't trust their ability to understand the nuance of risk.

That said, Josie doesn't have to be completely problem-free to uphold their QF values. If she's problem-free, God protected them because they followed His will. If she has problems, they respect human life so much that they'll go around reminding everyone how much they love their special-needs child and how she wasn't aborted and how being pro-choice would mean you'd want Josie dead. Or something. I don't think they'd ignore major developmental delays or not get OT/PT if they were told she needed it. Right now, she's probably having regular pediatrician checkups and could get a referral easily if she's not walking well or at the right time or something. I would worry more about years down the road, when she looks fine but is behind in learning to read or something more subtle.

I have edited my comments to remove statements that are off-topic. I would really appreciate it if we could continue with the topic... Josie updates (general updates about other kids are fine too). There is a specific thread about spanking, so please discuss it there. Thanks.

I was observing I have never noticed a differencw

Tv, the point artmama and I were sort of making is that whatever EI she is getting isn't happening on the road. She has been gone frequently enough that I think she misses enough that it might be detrimental. (might is important to note)

Yes, this is the kind of stuff that I'm talking about. It's more than just not spanking or being more patient. Of course we don't yet if Josie will have special needs, but she probably will. And having lots of loving people around just isn't enough for her. If she needs speech therapy or anything like that, she probably won't get it.

You can see Josie toddling along in the line with some help in this clip. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...540/vp/43323419#43323419

Good for her!

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I, on the other hand, know no one (no one) personally in my circle of friends and in my family who spanks, and I know lots and lots of polite, well-behaved, and high-achieving children and teens.

Again, I have edited my comments as the whole spanking thing is off-topic for this thread. We all have different experiences and none is pertinent to Josie Duggar updates. Please continue the "spanking" discussion on the "Spanking" thread. Thanks.

Carter, I mean this in the nicest way but sometimes posts do get derailed and there is nothing you or I can do about it. It happens and most likely will happen again to other threads. But one thing you can not do is tell people what they may or may not talk about in the thread. We are not TWOP and no one here wants to be anything like them so please don't expect anyone to like or comply with your above statement. If you are truly upset you may need to stop visiting this thread or speak to Alecto or Burris as they are the mods. It isn't fair that someone who has only 27 postings under their belt come in and tell the entire group what to do. I am not trying to be snarky or come down on you, I'm just trying to say that you are crossing a line that will not go over with the majority of FJ.

carter: It's actually OK here to go OT in threads. Like, right now, I'm writing a post, and I'm not going to say anything about Josie.

"Can you understand that it is possible to make an observation without suggesting causation or expertise?"

Well, in your head you may not have meant it that way, but "I have never met children with such "good" manners who were not spanked," does imply causation and expertise. So while it's certainly possible, it's not what you did. And the next sentence makes you sound like you would be willing to hear a bunch of differing experiences, but when faced with that disagreement you apparently erased what you wrote originally. Write better next time. Thanks.

ETA: (Also, I really don't think anyone meant to come down on you. Until me. I'm being harsh. But other people, not so harsh.)

I don't see anything wrong with asking people to stay on-topic. It's not like I am forcing anyone to do anything. I have no idea what TWOP is and I really don't care. I have been to many forums over the years and asking someone to please stay on-topic is no big deal. In fact, someone on this board apologized for hijacking a thread... if that isn't in the spirit of staying on topic, I don't know what is.

If most people would feel that politely asking people to stay on-topic is "crossing a line" then I doubt I want anything to do with such up-tight people. If I wanted that, I could join the QF movement. Best wishes to you all.

I don't know if you mean it to, carter, but this comes off as "If you don't play by my rules, I'm taking my toys and going home."

I really don't think anyone jumped on you. Threads derail all the time here - and yes, sometimes people apologize for hijacking, but there is no rule or even unspoken code against it. TWOP is a site that discusses television shows (where many of the original conversations on fundies spun out of) and discussions on fundamentalism in general were often censored or told they were "off topic" and derailing, and those discussions moved to other (less restrictive) messageboards.

In fact, one of the things I *like* about FJ is the twists and turns different threads take. It often engenders much more interesting and well-rounded discussion than if a thread could only talk about 3 specific things, outlined in the original post, and nothing else. For instance, in the thread on Emma up near the top, there have been some fascinating discussions about the adoption process in general, reactive attachment disorder, elimination communication and potty training, etc etc, not all of it directly related to the blog in question.

I think people were reacting to the way you phrased it. I know you think your sentence didn't imply causation but it did, the same way sentences like, "I don't know any good Christian women who are immodest" or "I don't know any stable families without a male head of household" do. On their face, they seem like observations, but they imply a relationship in a way that "One family I know spanks, and they do have well behaved children. I don't know any other children, so I can't speak in broader terms, but it seems to work for that family" wouldn't.

The whole on topic thing I feel is not in the spirit of this board. I have hijacked threads as it were and I have read ones who have gone off topic. Sometimes they go back on topic and sometimes they don't. I think that's just the nature of group dynamics and an open, free discussion. Similarly to when talking in person, conversations sometimes take detours. But I agree with Ladypuglover, we don't have many rules here and we just kind of let things be as they are. No one bosses someone else around, except maybe the mods and even then it would only be in an extreme case. No one here has been cruel, harsh or unreasonable to you as far as I can tell. It's rather unnecessary then for you to go and insult us in return, especially over such a trivial matter.

Carter, every board and every forum has its own unwritten rules. Some places heavily frown on rabbit trails and others just let stuff go where it goes. This place is the latter, pretty much.

A bit of wisdom-always better to lurk awhile or at least until you are sure you have the feel of a place before you make pronouncements. That goes for anywhere you go on the internet. Sounds like you are used to places that are stricter-but that ain't HERE.

The only problem I have with this comment was the way you worded it - it is easy to interpret it as being a direction, rather than a suggestion, and people usually don't appreciate that. Of course, it could be worded any way and people would still stay off topic, at least for a little while, on this forum! Just in my experience being here

I don't think anyone minds that you want to talk 'on topic', Carter, or that you expressed that, they're just saying "it's probably not going to happen here". If you want to discuss something on-topic, though, just say something on-topic and see if someone picks up the thread. Don't feel attacked because people are calling you to task or disagreeing with you - people are generally quite friendly here, but also quite direct. It doesn't mean they have something against you.

It's in one of their new books http://www.visionforum.co...blogs/doug/2011/02/9253/

Okay I have to ask, what the hell is "Jive Talk"?

[defrauding]

I guess Doug Phillips had enough of a problem with his children speaking like cast members of Airplane! to devote a book chapter to it.

(And here's the requisite YouTube link.)

My guess would be worldly slang--"yo bro" or something equally stupid.....

Wow, so you don't like generalization when people turn it around at you, but you're fine with it if referring to someone else's lifestyle?

And, yes, most spanked children seem to need, um, repeated spanking. If it worked so well, you'd only have to do it once. Almost every time I go to the grocery store, I witness a parent repeatedly threatening to spank their child. That, to me, is a signal that A. they spank, and B. they still have children who do not respect them. Meanwhile, my unspanked children stay with me and do as I ask them. Go figure.

Sorry, I'll go over there.

Welcome to Free Jinger, Miss Alli!

Oh, SNAP!

Although I can say with certainty that's one of the mods who DIDN'T ban me.

Actually, that argument could be made about any form of discipline. If time-outs "worked" then you'd only ever have to do it once. I seriously doubt that you will find many children (if any) that will only need to be disciplined once in their lifetime.

I am curious if they have altered their discipline. It seems that the "parents" are much more hands off and the parenting is really being left to the girls. Its kind of awkward to think (although I'm sure it fundie acceptable) to have the older siblings beating the little ones - would JD have to do it or would it be Jill?

I'm really disturbed that Michelle was NOWHERE in the preview of the Josie "emergency" for next week (which I'm sure isnt all that big of a deal or we would have heard about it). Jill calls 911, Jill is at the hospital... where is momma???

Thank you, LPL.

Carter, as a "mod", I want to echo LPL and all the others and let you know that we talk about whatever we want wherever we want, pretty much. I love forum participation by everyone, but if not staying on topic will bother you, prepare to be bothered here at FJ. People pretty much police themselves here and hand slapping doesn't go over well. I know you are a new poster and I don't want you to inadvertently get off on the wrong foot.

Sometimes we do go off on tangents, as one post will lead to another but that is the way this board works.

My guess was TWoP Howard.

Austin, I didn't mean to forget you, please forgive me.

I didn't realize you had!

I still feel sorry for Josie. The Duggars should be focusing more on some of the therapies and they shouldn't be hauling her around on a book tour. But Michelle knows she needs the youngest child on tour to make her groupies and fans fawn.

Also welcome to Miss Alli.

The TWOP boards are a pain and some of the mods complain way too much.

What an ignorant and completely untrue comment. It's taking great restraint to keep my fingers off the keyboard.

In my opinion, discipline is one of those things that depends a lot on the child. Some people are lucky, and have a kid who responds well to the kind of discipline that they are most comfortable with.

It is so wrong that Josie's health concerns are paraded on TV. The acute ones, anyway. Anything chronic will be either ignored, or prayed away.