Lori responds to a comment on feminists and college

[lilwriter85]

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/02/mothers-have-powerless-role.html#idc-container

There are several people {trolls} who comment on almost every post I write and find anything to nit pick about. I usually ignore them and don't even read their comments but the following comment was just too good to pass up.

It was made on my post Do All Women Need College Degrees? I guess they have nothing better to do with their time then find negative words to say to others. I figure at least they are getting God's Word into their lives by reading my blog!

This is her quote ~

Feminists will go to college and achieve all the high-paying, powerful positions. Going to law school, for example, will allow them to make and interpret the laws. Are you sure you want to advise Christian women to assume a powerless role in society?

Raising godly children who walk with Jesus, work hard, and grow up to be men and women of integrity will impact society much more than being a lawyer or some other high-powered job. We don't need any more women in high powered jobs, we need women who train and teach their children God's ways and walk in wisdom.

I have to agree with Lori being a mother isn't a powerless role. Mothers do have impacts. But Lori needs to realize that there is always going to be a need for women in high powered jobs. There would be shortages in some occupation fields that would hurt the rest of us.

I think if all the Christians heeded God's command to be fruitful and multiply and raised godly offspring, which God says is the purpose of marriage {Malachi 2:15}, I don't think our society would be in the mess it is right now. Too many mothers have left their homes and children to be raised by strangers and we are suffering the consequences.

When a lot of mothers were at home raising their children like in past generations, our nation was a much safer nation to live in. Children had mothers and fathers and felt loved and cared for. Now, they are lonely and looking ways to fill that void through drugs, pornography, and violence. I also love having men in powerful positions. I think they were doing a great job before women started taking over.

Again Lori doesn't realize that the Bible doesn't command everyone in the world. Different cultures and religions view marriage differently than speshul Christians like Lori. Working mothers do love and care for their children. Many women work mostly because of thei kids. The last two sentences piss me off.

[Fargood]

When a lot of mothers were at home raising their children like in past generations, our nation was a much safer nation to live in. Children had mothers and fathers and felt loved and cared for. Now, they are lonely and looking ways to fill that void through drugs, pornography, and violence. I also love having men in powerful positions. I think they were doing a great job before women started taking over.

It drives me insane when these idiots act like life was all sunshine and butterflies when women were disempowered and couldn't work in jobs that utilized their intellectual capital to its fullest extent. First, it's just bad economics -- without women in positions that appropriately reflect their intelligence, the county is losing out on half its brain power. Second, life wasn't fucking awesome when women couldn't work in their chosen fields. In fact, I think it probably really sucked in multiple ways.

Her argument is idealism at its absolute worst. And, what's with the argument that women are "taking over." I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a feminist and I don't remember having a meeting wherein we all agreed on an agenda to "take over." I guess I could've been out getting coffee.

[Drina Adams]

I hate female misogyny. It means women spend more time and energy having to justify choices they shouldn't have to. Its a total myth women didn't work outside of housework and childrearing in 'ye olden better days'. What about women working in factories, on farms and in domestic service? What about widows with families and no state social security, who had no choice but to work? Of course fundies and logic occupy different orbits.

[AllisonWndrland]

Her argument is idealism at its absolute worst. And, what's with the argument that women are "taking over." I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a feminist and I don't remember having a meeting wherein we all agreed on an agenda to "take over." I guess I could've been out getting coffee.

I missed the meeting, too. I was out playing at my "high-powered job" so I could pay the preschool and have insurance to get my birth control.

[lilwriter85]

I hate female misogyny. It means women spend more time and energy having to justify choices they shouldn't have to. Its a total myth women didn't work outside of housework and childrearing in 'ye olden better days'. What about women working in factories, on farms and in domestic service? What about widows with families and no state social security, who had no choice but to work? Of course fundies and logic occupy different orbits.

Fundies gloss over a lot of details about past eras. Lori has done it several times on her blog. She did some posting about how life was better in the 50s and 60s and she got ripped here. I remember posters pointed a lot of things that went on the 50s and 60s that weren't good. Lori glosses over some things partially because of her upbringing and family background. Lori grew up in more privilege than some women her age. Her father was a doctor and that allowed her mom to be a SAHM. She did mention having childhood friends whose mothers worked. She probably didn't think deeply about why those women worked. Lori tends to think that all working mothers do if for materialism.

[CrankyCatLady]

It drives me insane when these idiots act like life was all sunshine and butterflies when women were disempowered and couldn't work in jobs that utilized their intellectual capital to its fullest extent. First, it's just bad economics -- without women in positions that appropriately reflect their intelligence, the county is losing out on half its brain power. Second, life wasn't fucking awesome when women couldn't work in their chosen fields. In fact, I think it probably really sucked in multiple ways.

Her argument is idealism at its absolute worst. And, what's with the argument that women are "taking over." I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a feminist and I don't remember having a meeting wherein we all agreed on an agenda to "take over." I guess I could've been out getting coffee.

The bolded part struck me. I was watching 1900s House (per someone's suggestion on here) recently, where a family lives as though it were 1900. The mother was not happy. She'd had a good job, which she took leave from to do the show, and she was bored silly because all she did was clean and cook all day long. Watching the effort it took just to do laundry or wash her hair was enough to make me thankful for all the mod cons we have. I don't have anything like a high-powered job, but I love the work I do and am glad I can do it. When I was a SAHM, I was bored stupid. We aren't all alike - we don't all find ultimate fulfillment in staying at home and raising kids.

[Fargood]

I also love having men in powerful positions. I think they were doing a great job before women started taking over.

You know what I love? Competent people doing their jobs! Placing men in powerful positions does not de facto make them good at their jobs.

Ironically, isn't the whole conservative/fundie party line something like "competition is good/regulation is bad?" Isn't forcing women to stay at home its own form of regulation and affirmative action in favor of men? Wouldn't a true (read: not hypocritical) fundie desire to have competition for jobs with all of the most-qualified applicants, even if that included women?

[Jinger Jar]

Her self-hatred is so strong that I would be shocked if she didn't generalize it out to all women.

[Freyacat]

You know what I really hate lately? The watering down of the meaning of "troll." A few years ago, a troll was someone who did things specifically to be an ass. They might dox someone. They might make up a hateful invented persona specifically to mess with people. But lately I see more and more bloggers whining about "trolls" when people just see things differently. It seems that anyone who comments and disagrees - no matter how reasonably and well thought out - is now considered a troll. That's really irritating; it seems like a way to shut down meaningful discussion entirely, because people might be hesitant to voice any small objection lest they be called a troll. And a thread full of leghumping is just plain boring. It's one of the things I like about being here - we're allowed to disagree. But Lori and a lot of other bloggers don't want that, so anyone who doesn't drool over them is called a troll.

[treehugger]

Ah yes, the world was so much better before the ebil wimmenz took over :roll:

Until the 1960's everything was sunshine and roses. No one was poor. No one died from illness, malnutrition, childbirth, etc... There were no wars. There was no abuse. People weren't hanged for being unjustly accused. All children grew up in two parent homes with enough food and clothes. The willful ignorance of history makes me want to :angry-banghead:

Nothing has ever been black and white in the world. There are, and always have been, a million shades of grey.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Ironically, isn't the whole conservative/fundie party line something like "competition is good/regulation is bad?" Isn't forcing women to stay at home its own form of regulation and affirmative action in favor of men? Wouldn't a true (read: not hypocritical) fundie desire to have competition for jobs with all of the most-qualified applicants, even if that included women?

It's amazing to me just how the fundies can insist that men are so wise and knowing and reasoned and non-emotional and thus "naturally more qualified for everything" than women, and yet ALSO insist that women need to protect teh menz delicate sensibilities and carefully fluffed egos 24/7 lest they trip up and either stop working in a snit or hump the neighbor's wife, at the SAME TIME.

Which is it?

[lilwriter85]

I was a bit surprised she let these comments go through.

Courtney · 4 hours ago

I think going to college is smart regardless of whether or not a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom. It gives her a backup plan in case she loses her husband and needs to support her children. Taking a part-time job, or finding something she can do from home like babysitting or teaching music lessons to keep up her work experience is also smart, for the same reason. There was a time in history when a woman's only choices upon the death of her husband were to become a prostitute, a barmaid, a nanny, or a housekeeper. The first two were unacceptable for a lot of women and the last two forced them to send their children to work as well while they went and cared for someone else's family. It was out of a need for survival that many of these women chose to marry the first man who would have them, even if he was drunk and abusive. In that respect, feminism has one redeeming quality, for it has allowed women more options should they need them. However, I totally agree that raising children is perhaps the most powerful and influential roll in our society. My mother stayed home with us. She also does not express her opinion as to whether or not we should do the same with our children. One of my sisters currently stays home with her daughter but has not always done so and may not continue to do it forever. I do not yet have children but would like to stay home with them. My other sister wants to own a ranch, which means work and home will be the same place. I believe each woman should do what God has called her to do, and that will not be the same for all women. Some may be called to remain single and will therefore never have the opportunity to be mothers. Of those who will be mothers, some will not have the luxury to stay home for financial reasons. Then there will be those who have motherhood thrust upon them when they must step up to raise the children of tragically deceased relatives and are unable to leave their careers due to a lack of pre-planning. Society needs women who focus building loving homes and raising Godly children and who will teach others to the same thing. We also need women who understand that not all women come from the same place and who in their defense of motherhood and womanhood do not unintentionally alienate others who do not and perhaps cannot be what they are.

Pam · 4 hours ago

Very well said! Unfortunately, life isn't perfect and things happen. Not every woman will marry a wonderful man at a young age. This is okay and women shouldn't be told not to go to college/pursue their dreams. Not every woman wants the same thing, and that's okay.

Chris · 3 hours ago

Your blog is one of my favorite regular reads. There is not one blog where every reader is going to agree with 100% of everything, but if there are trolls who regularly try to cause discord, perhaps you could block them from posting.

Chris hasn't noticed that Lori heavily moderates comments. I was looking through some of Lori's early postings from 2011 and people were disagreeing with her early on. A former FJer said that Lori didn't post her comment one time and instead emailed her.

[Dev83]

I hate when fundies wax poetic about past generations.

No, we were not safer, there were just different dangers. No, life was not better. We just have different challenges now. No statistics I have ever read prove any of the things these people spew about bygone eras.

Yeah, being a women in the 50s was just awesome, especially if you were poor. Or black. Or any race other than white. Or had any aspiration outside of homemaker.

[Bloo]

Yeah, let's give this it-was-better-back-then crap to the parents of my students. In the 1950s, or hell, even as late as the 1980s, the vast majority of my students would have been shut away in institutions and had no opportunity to learn. The parents would have had zero resources. Fuck that noise and the noisemaker too.

[samurai_sarah]

No, Lori, actually poor women always had to work to feed their children. If they didn't have work, they'd feed their children like Kelly from Generation Starvation. Or not at all. Because for most of history (including today) one wage was simply not enough!

So, thanks, I'll keep my education. And I will make sure that a strictly limited number of children get all the attention, love and material comfort that I can provide. Common sense tells me that that's better than stretching two chicken breasts to eleven people, and beating the blessings I can neither afford nor handle.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Guess what? A woman can get an education, have a good career, and still be powerful and positive influence over her children. Just look at Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama. I'd much prefer to have these ladies as my mom over Michelle Duggar or Bristol Palin.

[Carla Bruni]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why being an educated and competent professional and a good mother are considered to be mutually exclusive by these people. Is it some sort of inferiority complex they can't get over that's driving this? It makes no sense.

[GolightlyGrrl]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why being an educated and competent professional and a good mother are considered to be mutually exclusive by these people. Is it some sort of inferiority complex they can't get over that's driving this? It makes no sense.

I have a feeling Lori wasn't exactly the best student, and I doubt she was a very good teacher. That could be a reason why she's such a snot about women getting educated and working. She just couldn't hack it.

[Rita]

Grrr....aside from the women-hating, she's just plain wrong. The US is becoming safer and safer, with the fewer incidents reported more widely. Not that I have the FBI stats for this on hand, but I'll dig them up if you wish.

[Anxious Girl]

She do as she preaches to be a Godly women: stop being active in promoting her cult, please her husband as much as possible, deny her own wants her whole, keep house and take care of the kids 24/7. She's a hypocritical bitch.

[samurai_sarah]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why being an educated and competent professional and a good mother are considered to be mutually exclusive by these people. Is it some sort of inferiority complex they can't get over that's driving this? It makes no sense.

Since when do fundies make sense? :evil:

Lori lives in la-la-land, not that you needed me to explain that. But even her ideas of middle/upper class women taking care of their children themselves is out there to say the least. In Victorian times, nurses, nannies and governesses took care of that, while poorer mothers worked. I think it's wishful thinking on their part.

And the nagging feeling that despite fundie mothers' best efforts, their children aren't the "leaders of the free world", which by their divine will they should be. It's either that they weren't good enough, or that someone else is to blame. They've got their deity on their side, so it must be someone else. Educated women who don't live Lori's life are a better culprit than admitting that she might not be so perfect? :roll:

[moon2552]

I've read Lori's blog and find myself sickened by her views. I've tried to write a calm/rational response, but she only lets people that agree with her, have their views published. Has anyone else ever been given a response by her? I feel like writing a counter blog to hers.

[Hane]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why being an educated and competent professional and a good mother are considered to be mutually exclusive by these people. Is it some sort of inferiority complex they can't get over that's driving this? It makes no sense.

I loved Cokie Roberts's book We Are Our Mothers' Daughters, which gives due recognition to the parenting skills of educated, professional women. In it, she quoted someone who whined about how "sorry" she felt for all the children of working mothers, who "would never know the joy of baking cookies with Mom." Cokie, an accomplished journalist and author, apparently never got that memo, mentioning all the times she'd baked cookies with her kids. She also talked about the gorgeous custom draperies her mothe, Lindy Boggs, made--and Lindy Boggs was a Congresswoman and a US Ambassador.

I swear, I did more dressmaking and scratch baking when I had a kid in the house--and a fulltime AND a parttime job--than I do now as an empty-nester!

[GeoBQn]

Lori responded to Courtney's comment:

I simply teach what God commands that I teach...women with children being keepers at home. I think this is a high calling from God. I also teach what that looks like to me. I feel God's ideal is for women to be home full-time once they have children for it is a full-time job. Each woman will have to stand before God, not me, and give an account what they did with their lives. They need to seek God and ask for wisdom and seek godly counsel, then obey God wherever He leads.

Here is the comment I posted, which Lori will likely never see since she has apparently routed "troll" posts to go into her spam folder:

I think G-d is very pleased with my mother's work as a physical therapist for children with special needs. She has her Bachelor's Degree in physical therapy and her Master's Degree in early childhood development. She has worked outside the home for decades (though she went part time when she had children.) She has helped countless children over the years reach their full potential--including me. When I was born with both of my hips dislocated, she used her professional connections to get the best pediatric orthopedic surgeon in the world to operate on me. When I developed a language acquisition disorder, she drew on her professional experience to identify that something was wrong and brought me to see the excellent speech therapists she worked with. She also used her salary, along with my father's salary, to pay for my physical and speech therapies out of pocket because insurance wouldn't cover it.

I honestly believe that G-d planned for me to be born to a woman with the exact educational and professional qualifications necessary to handle the medical problems I experienced early in life. If my mother hadn't pursued her education and career goals that she felt drawn to, I know I wouldn't be the same capable person I am today.

[SPHASH]

Obviously Lori knows nothing about WW2. During the war all the men either enlisted or were drafted, exceptions being farmers, only sons, the disabled, and men over 50. There were a lot of job openings as a result. Who filled them? WOMEN! My great aunt became a teacher at the age of 19 due to a teacher shortage. The school district paid for her to take classes to get a teaching certificate becauseshe was in the top 3 of her class. Not all the male teachers made it home alive, some that did did not go back to teaching so auntie stayed on as a teacher, even after she married and had her son.