The bible club gave treeboy a bible

[valsa]

Of course, you'd have grounds to complain. It wouldn't bother you if Satanists-a recognized group and not a cult- chose your child out for special attention and pooled their money to buy him/her a copy of LeVay's Satanic Bible? What about if an atheist group-again, not a cult- gossiped about saving your child from your faith and bought literature meant just for him/her? None of that would bother you?

Just what I was thinking.

Maybe Treemom's family should take up a collection to give out Satanic Bibles to everyone in the bible club. Fair is fair, right?

[constantgardener]

We had the same thing in Year 7 but were told that we could refuse if we wanted! But then my school had many Muslim, Hindu and Sikh students which is maybe why. I wasn't a Christian then but didn't refuse out of shyness. I don't actually have it anymore though! I don't think it's right that students aren't allowed to refuse Bibles (or any other religious text/pamphlet).

That made me remember that we were given Gideon's Bibles in year 7 too! They must do it for all new secondary school students. I remember we had to go up on stage during assembly to accept them. I don't remember being given a choice but I doubt I would have refused because the Gideons representative was my best friend's dad! I do still have that Bible as well.

[happy atheist]

I think it's incredibly inappropriate as well.

Please let us know the response you get from the teacher and the principal.

[Burris]

Treemom, have you read The Good News Club by Katherine Stewart? (Amazon link to check it out: http://www.amazon.com/Good-News-Club-Ch ... +News+Club) I highly, highly suggest you read this book, with what happened with your son...

People of good will - those who could never imagine themselves doing such evil - always seem to wonder where genocide begins.

Long before the first shot is fired, or the first blade swung, it begins in the children; at home, sometimes, and at school (for those in certain madrassas - and apparently for Christian kids in the US as well).

It begins even before the child recognizes he is forming a prejudice. He may not even realize it, as he grows into an adult who is sure he doesn't really hate any one group, that something in his formative experience made him more prone. More...more dangerous.

[treemom]

I have done....nothing. After talking it over with my son and husband and considering the culture where we live I opted to just bitch on FB and here and do nothing. The risk of them attempting to martyr themselves was just not worth it.

[nokidsmom]

Missed this thread before and saw when it bumped up. Wow, what happened to your son was very inappropriate, but I can completely understand the decision to do nothing, particularly if they might do the martyr thing which, being Bible Belt, would create some positive attention for them and negative for your son. Since he's in 7th grade, he isn't going to be around that group for much longer anyway so it makes sense to me. By letting it go, your outward response to them is basically "meh" (even if privately you are fuming) but it gives them nothing to run with if they are inclined to make a big deal of it.

[dawbs]

*

That made me remember that we were given Gideon's Bibles in year 7 too! They must do it for all new secondary school students. I remember we had to go up on stage during assembly to accept them. I don't remember being given a choice but I doubt I would have refused because the Gideons representative was my best friend's dad! I do still have that Bible as well.

Urgle.

My dad fought this hard.

He was 1- a teacher 2-a school counselor 3-a member of the Gideons.

He quit (the Gideons, not the teacher/counselor thing :-P) eventually because he could not get it through the heads of local leadership that it was inappropriate for him to use his position within the schools as a recruiting/evangelizing tool.

(my dad leans fundie/fundie-lite but he knows bullying/inappropriate when he sees it)

(and treemom, doing nothing is understandable. I think telling the teacher, as a 'by the by'/happenstance why you were irked would be OK, if the teacher has otherwise not seemed like a phillips tool, but if the teacher is a tool, erring on the side of protecting your son is the way to go)

[thekate]

I have done....nothing. After talking it over with my son and husband and considering the culture where we live I opted to just bitch on FB and here and do nothing. The risk of them attempting to martyr themselves was just not worth it.

Your son knows you're on his side, and that's the most important thing.

[hoipolloi]

Missed this thread when it first came up but just want to say that in following your son's lead on this, you've done the right thing.

Such a frustrating & obnoxious situation. I hold the adults responsible, particularly the club's advisor, who should have known better than to allow or agree to the club members doing ANYTHING that singles out an individual in this way.

And, no, for those who somehow see this as benign, this is NOT like the club taking up a collection for flowers for a hospitalized classmate.

[Childless]

Maybe the best thing for your son to do would be to donate the bible to a religious organization. That way, it gets used by someone who actually wants it and it can be a somewhat "in your face" to the group that singled him out.

[infooverload]

The whole thing is really depressing. Basically people who do not want religion shoved down their throats have to sit quietly by and not raise a stink, otherwise they are persecuting believers. Honestly I think there are a lot of quite agnostics/atheist in America, but a lot of Christians say this group has this incredible power and are creating a secular society. Yet more and more you hear references to God and if someone says I do not believe God prevented a bad thing from happening they get blasted.

[YPestis]

Well, I guess I'm confused as to all the outrage here. Calling the media? ACLU? "Keeping an eye" on he sponsoring teacher? Seems a bit overboard. I'm not sure I would even be that upset if I was treeboy.

I grew up in a secular household and my parents were kind of anti-religious. Proselytizing has always been a mild source of amusement to my parents. I've been proselytized to most of my life. I've been given children's bibles, countless tracts, invited to multiple churches. I never owned a bible until I was an adult but if someone gave one as a child, I think I would be more intrigued than upset.

However, perhaps for someone with a pre-existing religious background, it is different. I don't know. It never occurred to me to be indignant when someone tries to convert me, even as a child. My mom always reminded me that what *we* believed in.

As an adult, I feel sometimes we create a hostile environment when we jump to "call the lawyer" mode as soon as religion intersect with schools. We live in a diverse nation and will get people handing out bibles and tracts. My parents accepted this never felt an urge to slap someone because they want to throw a bible my way as a child or an adult.

The only issue I would have is that treeboy was singled out for proselytizing and that the sponsoring teacher approved this. Was there a history of harassment between treeboy and this group? Did treeboy feel offended? Have anyone from the club singled out treeboy for his beliefs or made him feel bad about it? If they just decided to give him a bible because they figured he's "not Christian" then it seems more like a benign but childish attempt at trying to proselytize, with no malicious intent.

The sponsoring teacher is different as he is an adult and should know better. I would speak with him first, before even going to the principle, to see what was in his head.

If nothing else, this is a great opportunity for the adults to talk to treeboy about proselytizing, and how the world treats people with differing religious beliefs. I don't think treemom needs to go into Momma Grizzly mode until bullying intent can be discerned. After all, that's the type of behavior we see in fundies. They scream "persecution" if someone so much as get let their children get near a non-fundie approved book. I feel that to react negatively or go nuclear on this issue would make us no different than fundies. In fact, I think that would send the message that there's something horrible about Christians or the bible. I want my kids to accept that there are people who want to convert you and to stand their ground, and to do so graciously. It's one more thing that I think I can separate myself from the fundies on.

[thekate]

Well, I guess I'm confused as to all the outrage here. Calling the media? ACLU? "Keeping an eye" on he sponsoring teacher? Seems a bit overboard. I'm not sure I would even be that upset if I was treeboy.

As far as I know I was the only one to mention the ACLU, and if you read it, that wasn't about suing anybody. The ACLU can be a great resource to clarify what the law actually says. If it were the students giving treeboy the Bible, that's one thing, but if it were instigated by the teacher, that IS illegal (as well as inappropriate) and the school is putting itself at risk by not stopping it.

Letter* <> Lawsuit

IF the teacher were passing out Bibles, it's a differential of power and bullying and should be stopped, so I'm not sure "keeping an eye" if the teacher is involved is "overboard."

*assuming law was broken; it's unclear if the teacher was involved

[treemom]

My problem was that a school group should not be proselytizing. They are for support, not conversion. And basically that was the attempt.

Yes, he has been singled out before. Yes, it bothers him to some degree and yes he feels bullied a little. But the thing is, my kid is a weird kid to bully and isn't going to take it to heart to much. He is very well traveled, very athletic (summiteers Kilimanjaro just two weeks after turning 12, is doing a full triathlon in may), he wears the right brands, is quiet, but not too quiet...smart but low key about it. Friends with everyone.

I don't think they think they are bullying anyone, but he really just wants to be left alone and has told them several times faith is personal in our family and he doesn't want to discuss it.

But I just don't think it is appropriate for another parent to intercede in this way (going to buy the bible) and I think it is both inappropriate and questionably legal as to wether the involvement of a school sponsored org and teacher should be doing this.

But at the end of the day we live in a place where when I told someone I was Jewish I was asked why I didn't believe in God. Because my husband is his parent too and my son's feelings matter I have stifled my righteous indignation and just bitched about it.

He defriended the instigator on fb, but she re-requested him and I don't know what happened because preteen/teen fb drama bores me.

[treemom]

Oh and part of my annoyance was the audacity to assume he has had no exposure to the bible...or that we would not provide one if he were interested.

"We" as a family don't have religious beliefs. All three of us have our own....from my son being a practicing Buddhist at 7 (he still mediates but no longer feels it identifies him...who knows what he will feel in the future...and yes we took him to our local meditation center every Sunday while he was interested) to my sort of diesty-agnosticy feelings to whatever my husband feels (I have no idea because faith is so incredibly personal to him....but I think it is somewhere in there)

I think proselytizing is rude. So it will always be a problem for me...as an adult I have taken the path of saying I don't need saving and do not believe in an after life. But it is harder when you are in seventh grade and want to fit in...

Anyhow..it is what it is. I probably would have made a different choice if I liked or trusted the principal at all. But I don't.

[Buzzard]

In the end he is the one that has to go to school and deal with it, so following his lead and operating in his comfort level is the right call. I'm sure that his objection was noted, whether it sinks through their skulls is another issue. In 20 years will he remember that some kid singled him out and gave him a bible? Maybe... but he'd DEFINITELY remember being the center of a feud he didnt want started. Kudos to you for allowing your child the opportunity to make an adult decision. What they did was wrong, but he doesnt need to pick up the sword if he doesnt feel its necessary. He'll remember that he was given a choice and you honored it.

[dawbs]

FWIW, I was a pushy proselytizing fundie-light at his age.

I can say that I could have/would have done similar things to people.

And I can say that any attempt to tell me it was wrong would have just martyred me.

And I'll also say that I'm embarrassed as hell about how I acted then.

So don't give up all hope for annoying girl and teacher :)

[kolga]

Anyhow..it is what it is. I probably would have made a different choice if I liked or trusted the principal at all. But I don't.

I think this is key, frankly. I grew up in the south, and am well aware that having to fight against what is, for all intents and purposes, an industrialized religious complex would wear anyone out. Without allies, especially at the school, it might merely open treeboy up for more targeting.

edited for clarity