Botkinettes blog, just in time for Valentine's Day!

[Anny Nym]

Probably in contrast to what I wrote before...:

After digging deeper into their blog, I just have the same thoughts as @Soldier of the One.

They may not be submissive fundie wives themselves but they surely meet a lot and get a fist-hand-insight behind all that "OhhhthatGODLYBLISSwebatheeverydayin"that kind of people want to make us believe through their TV Sows,blogs, cheesy movies & books etc.

The sisters witness (probably or eventually) the financial troubles, the marriage/health/child-relation/... problems and even violence and serial depression a typical submissive wife and mother of ~ 9 had to go through. Most likely they just said one day : "No, not for me/us - we won´t touch that kind of life with a 10inch handcrafted broomstick!" and luckily for them, the Botkin Sisters are in the position to do so... The rest is just a little playing the ice matyr and off they are able to go to theorize (and they do alot!) about christian philosophy, relationship with god, soul searching and... the preparing of future wives as one ultimative goal (oh, THIS old problem, *sigh*) which happens to also be their main income resource.

But Hey! didn´t even Queen Victoria wrote a letter to a die-hard Sufragettes-basher to confirm him in his actions and rant about women demanding rights herself? Although she never made her husband King, did also write letters to her daughter about the burden of marriage and had at least one "close friendship" with men?

If Queen Victora (the victorian of all victorians!) could do so, why the Botkin Sisters shouldn´t?

What´s the english word for that behaviour again...? Oh yes, "hypocrite".

[wtylcf]

I sometimes wonder whether they actually want to pursue marriage themselves. Their life is pretty comfortable right now within their own context: they get to engage with intellectual pursuits, speak publicly, write, travel, have fun with hobbies and develop social contacts. They might have a bit of spending money/financial independence from their revenue. Faced by the actual prospect of submitting to a man, bearing children, keeping house... I am not sure whether they are chomping at the bit. They'd basically swap their 'professional' lives (which frankly, are quite glamorous, I think - no real drudgery there) for that of a common fundie housewife.

Interesting theory! I agree that there are many advantages to their lives as they are right now - the only disadvantage being having to live with their parents, but if they honestly don't mind that, they do have a fair amount of relative independence compared to their married peers, without having to take care of a house and submit to a man who isn't Geoff Botkin. I would go nuts still living with my parents at my age (which is close to AS's) but if they can hack it, I guess, why not, other than its psychological weirdness?

I still think that their being single won't gain them status in the long run, as usually being married is a fundie status symbol. But I suppose in their eyes, being single isn't going to drag them down as much as "marrying down" to someone of lower status. I guess in their case it really does make sense to hold out for the perhaps-nonexistent missionary malibu Ken equivalent.

[moodygirl86]

I'd completely forgotten it was Valentine's Day! That explains the Thornton's chocs being shared round the office at work today...

[erunerune]

Interesting theory! I agree that there are many advantages to their lives as they are right now - the only disadvantage being having to live with their parents, but if they honestly don't mind that, they do have a fair amount of relative independence compared to their married peers, without having to take care of a house and submit to a man who isn't Geoff Botkin. I would go nuts still living with my parents at my age (which is close to AS's) but if they can hack it, I guess, why not, other than its psychological weirdness?

I still think that their being single won't gain them status in the long run, as usually being married is a fundie status symbol. But I suppose in their eyes, being single isn't going to drag them down as much as "marrying down" to someone of lower status. I guess in their case it really does make sense to hold out for the perhaps-nonexistent missionary malibu Ken equivalent.

I'm on board with neither-of-them-being-married-yet-because-they-don't-want-to-be theory. I'm pretty sure they see Kelly Bradrick's life and just think "Oh, hell to the NO" and keep on with the status quo. They aren't stupid, & either could be married by now if they were putting their minds to it. I get that they are comfortable with their current living situation, and if something "better" (whatever that would constitute) caught their eyes then Epic Botkin Girl Wedding/Mandatory 2-Hour "Teaching" Snoozefest would happen so quickly it would make your head spin.

[merrily]

Vision forum is like darwin awards in action.

[Olive Plant]

I still think that their being single won't gain them status in the long run, as usually being married is a fundie status symbol. But I suppose in their eyes, being single isn't going to drag them down as much as "marrying down" to someone of lower status. I guess in their case it really does make sense to hold out for the perhaps-nonexistent missionary malibu Ken equivalent.

"marrying down" reminds me so much of Jane Austen etc. With as much as their father has talked about men paying an actual bride price (I'm not making that up, right?) for them, you know they're not going to settle for an assistant mechanic with dirty fingernails, however much they talk about not having unrealistic expectations. Not that it's a bad thing. I don't necessarily date assistant mechanics either. But my peers also go to college. I'm not seeing much within their realm of possibility. It's either Starving Artist, Entrepreneur (see Starving Artist), Blue Collar, or Trust Fund. Or Pastor. Unless they're looking for the elusive actually-went-to-college-and-got-a-good-job-and-THEN-converted guy.

Entrepreneurs can definitely make it, of course, and I know some really great businessmen who never went to college. But to be one, you kind of have to think outside the box, aggressively best those who are already established, and become good at what you do (not pretend to be good and slap a Christian label on it and lament that "the world" doesn't like you because you're righteous). Rigid cultures in which hierarchy and toeing the line are upheld rarely produce good entrepreneurs, especially if basic education is lacking.

[nokidsmom]

I'm pretty sure they see Kelly Bradrick's life and just think "Oh, hell to the NO" and keep on with the status quo.

Interesting theories on why they aren't married, but this one really jumped out at me. Kelly Bradrick's life since her marriage to Peter is a prime example of how even a fundie princess' life can change for the worse by attaining the goals of marriage and motherhood.

[HereticHick]

Perhaps Purity Balls should morph into Godly Debutante Balls.

Or for the non-dancing crowd, there could be regional Bible Bees for teens and young adults, so they can show off their prowess of reciting bible verses before a crowd of eligible suitors.

The guys will try to sound like dashing preachers, and girls will wear their most fetching modest attire & try to sound winsome. No touching, and plenty of chaperones. After the competition, we'll gather for punch and cookies (cute cookies baked by the young ladies) in the back of the auditorium. An afternoon of sweeeeet fellowship for all.

[MamaJunebug]

I sometimes wonder whether they actually want to pursue marriage themselves. Their life is pretty comfortable right now within their own context: they get to engage with intellectual pursuits, speak publicly, write, travel, have fun with hobbies and develop social contacts. They might have a bit of spending money/financial independence from their revenue. Faced by the actual prospect of submitting to a man, bearing children, keeping house... I am not sure whether they are chomping at the bit. They'd basically swap their 'professional' lives (which frankly, are quite glamorous, I think - no real drudgery there) for that of a common fundie housewife.

I would be willing to be a few bucks that this is the truth.

IIRC the family now live on a couple acres (at least) with several buildings, a former juvenile camp of some kind. One of their brothers married a physician's daughter and another brother is known to make good money so whatever the book/conference sales are, they're far from starving, it would appear.

Chances are the girls [sic] have their own little studio building to go work in, retreat from Pahpaw and his droning on ... and by many accounts, their mom Vicki is just a little old hippie lady who goes with the flow of whatever Ge-off-rey is spouting this time.

I would bet a little more money that at least one of the girls has had a direct request for courtship, which she advised Geoff she would decline, and which message he politely and promptly delivered to the wouldbe suitor.

Yep, I would say the blogpost (which I couldn't read thru, I only have so many minutes left in my life!!!) is more to soothe the fretful faithful than to express any personal dismay.

[fatcat]

I too am of the belief that the Botkin sisters don't want to get married that badly. Of course, they have to pretend they do- but so much of what these people say on their blogs is fake. They have to keep up the 'cheerful' appearance at all times (which would drive me craaazy...).

I know two sisters in real life who are big fans of the Botkins (I feel a bit wary posting about them here, since I feel like it's an invasion of their privacy). One of them is now in college, which is what she wanted all along, although she pretended for a while that she didn't want it. The other one is at home, has no desire to go to college, and says she wants to get married, but honestly I don't think she does, at least not right now. Sometimes these girls find ways to get what they want even in such a strict setting. But of course not all of them. I think it depends a lot on how controlling their fathers really are.

[starfish]

The entire Botkin clan seems weird to me. Who knows what the Botkinettes want in life.

I feel like they don't really let the public know them at all.

The fundie lads aren't exactly bold fellows. I'm sure they are scared to death to scale

the Botkin compound wall to court the Botkinettes.

[salsa]

Don't forget that she's had all intelligence trained out of her and now she talks like a moron.*

eta: *but she's a sweet moron.

eta, again - must have cross-posted during my first edit.... sheesh. Say goodnight, Gracie.

[Karsaroni]

I'm thinking that Daddy has chased off many a suitor, without even tellnig either girl that he was approached. Since Geoff is nobody's idea of a roaring social or financial success it's probably vital to his mental health to have someone, somewhere under his thumb. If the thumb-ees are his own children, and his helicopter parenting stunts their emotional health, well too bad. That's the price they pay for being under Daddy's "umbrella of protection" (vomit).

Supposedly it's the girls themselves that have chased off suitors. I think they believe they deserve the perfect guy and anyone that doesn't meet their ridiculous standards is refused. What they seem to be forgetting is that in their world, one fundie girl is interchangeable for the next. Youth reigns supreme so as they age, suitors won't come calling. And let's face it... what guy wants Pa Botkin as his FIL? And I'm sure in their small world, all of the potential guy suitors are aware of others failed attempts so why would they even bother? Especially when there is another 19 year fundie girl w/o all of the drama ready for the taking.

Bottom line = they have screwed themselves. And I think they know it. They won't ever admit it and will continue to spout their Valentines Day drivel in future posts in an effort to convince themselves and others that there is a real reason they still aren't married off. But everyone knows the truth deep down. Them, their fellow fundies and of course us!

[debrand]

Don't forget that she's had all intelligence trained out of her and now she talks like a moron.*

eta: *but she's a sweet moron.

eta, again - must have cross-posted during my first edit.... sheesh. Say goodnight, Gracie.

Goodnight Gracie.

[DefraudedbyGothard]

I am another subcriber to the "I don't think they want to get married" theory. Don't know why but I see them and get a vision of What Ever Happened to Baby Jane. Or maybe they will become the fundy version of Grey Gardens.

[AmyP]

I sometimes wonder whether they actually want to pursue marriage themselves. Their life is pretty comfortable right now within their own context: they get to engage with intellectual pursuits, speak publicly, write, travel, have fun with hobbies and develop social contacts. They might have a bit of spending money/financial independence from their revenue. Faced by the actual prospect of submitting to a man, bearing children, keeping house... I am not sure whether they are chomping at the bit. They'd basically swap their 'professional' lives (which frankly, are quite glamorous, I think - no real drudgery there) for that of a common fundie housewife.

I think you may be on to something there.

[YPestis]

I sometimes wonder whether they actually want to pursue marriage themselves. Their life is pretty comfortable right now within their own context: they get to engage with intellectual pursuits, speak publicly, write, travel, have fun with hobbies and develop social contacts. They might have a bit of spending money/financial independence from their revenue. Faced by the actual prospect of submitting to a man, bearing children, keeping house... I am not sure whether they are chomping at the bit. They'd basically swap their 'professional' lives (which frankly, are quite glamorous, I think - no real drudgery there) for that of a common fundie housewife.

There may be some truth in that as well. In fact, it could be a combination of having high expectations for a husband, a demanding father and their own reticence towards marriage. I don't think their personal life is without moments of drudgery, but having a gaggle of young kids will preclude them from writing books and doing speaking engagements. The glamous life they project will be overshadowed by poopy diapers and spit up. I wonder if they know there are mommy blogs out there making motherhood hip again.

I'm not sure if I should cheer for the Botkin girls to get married or be sad that their creativity will be stifled thereafter. At some point, their own culture will no longer look to them for guidance as they age. They will go from young ingenue to old spinsters. Sadly, in fundie culture, and even in mainstream culture, an unmarried women is still a sign of pity.

[salsa]

Goodnight Gracie.

Oops! I don't know how that happened, but I was posting on the ditz, Priscilla, thread... I really blew it this time. :oops: I don't even follow the Botkins other than reading on here from time to time.

[DefraudedByPlaid]

I would be willing to be a few bucks that this is the truth.

IIRC the family now live on a couple acres (at least) with several buildings, a former juvenile camp of some kind. One of their brothers married a physician's daughter and another brother is known to make good money so whatever the book/conference sales are, they're far from starving, it would appear.

Chances are the girls [sic] have their own little studio building to go work in, retreat from Pahpaw and his droning on ... and by many accounts, their mom Vicki is just a little old hippie lady who goes with the flow of whatever Ge-off-rey is spouting this time.

I would bet a little more money that at least one of the girls has had a direct request for courtship, which she advised Geoff she would decline, and which message he politely and promptly delivered to the wouldbe suitor.

Yep, I would say the blogpost (which I couldn't read thru, I only have so many minutes left in my life!!!) is more to soothe the fretful faithful than to express any personal dismay.

Sorry, I must have missed a thread somewhere - which brother is known to make good money? Isaac? David?

[Burris]

Count me in as being on the, "They don't want to get married" bandwagon. Nancy Leigh DeMoss never married and now she runs a multi-million dollar corporation that teaches women to marry and submit to men and not work outside the home. The sisters could be hoping to reproduce that kind of success together. Even if they fail, their brothers have been schooled to care for those women financially until they either marry or die. They're probably really attached to each other, as well, and neither likes the prospect of being swept a thousand miles away from family by a new husband who wants to be a missionary (or something).

[Soldier of the One]

Burris, might they not be too extreme to turn their philosophy into a viable or very profitable success?

[Burris]

Burris, might they not be too extreme to turn their philosophy into a viable or very profitable success?

Give it a few years; as the "centrist" window in the US keeps slipping rightward, the Botkin Sisters' dutiful 'hopes deferred' act might very well earn them a series of good gigs. If you look at DeMoss' background, at what she preaches, and at who she invites to the stage and on the radio, it becomes clear that she is actually an extremist - no less so than the Botkins, in fact.