Swear An Oath Or No Diploma For You

[Guest Anonymous]

I have read that Europeans consider our daily (in school, anyway) Pledge of Allegiance creepy and weird. Maybe some of our EuroFJers can weigh in on that.

I'm over the uber-patriotic shit too. If the right-wingers succeeded in making over this country according to their ideas, I'd be saying bye to the USA and hello to Canada or one of the Scandinavian countries.

I'm from the UK. We have a monarchy and so we have a lot of weird ritual and ceremony. Even so, I find the American 'Pledge of Allegiance' creepy. I've never been required to say a pledge or an oath. I associate those things with countries that have 30-foot high pictures of their leaders in the town square.

Edited: weird wording.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im from the UK and I always thought it was a bit strange how Americans did the Pledge of Allegiance daily in school.

[Avalondaughter]

I have read that Europeans consider our daily (in school, anyway) Pledge of Allegiance creepy and weird. Maybe some of our EuroFJers can weigh in on that.

I'm over the uber-patriotic shit too. If the right-wingers succeeded in making over this country according to their ideas, I'd be saying bye to the USA and hello to Canada or one of the Scandinavian countries.

I think it's creepy and weird and I'm a loyal, patriotic American. I think it's pathetic that regressives care more about kids making a daily rote recitation of loyalty more than they care about how well children are being educated.

[JesusFightClub]

Me too. I mean we have the Burns' Supper here and various other Scottish things. But no-one would think the less of you if you didn't do those. Patriotism's what you feel or you dinnae. You dinnae, naebody's deid.

Loyalty oaths are creepy. Swearing allegiance is for adults, not kids. It has to be a conscious choice where you can see the alternatives. Kids being forced to do it, that's wrong.

[LeopardLady]

I think it's creepy and weird and I'm a loyal, patriotic American. I think it's pathetic that regressives care more about kids making a daily rote recitation of loyalty more than they care about how well children are being educated.

I am also an American that thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is creepy and weird. On top of that, I'm very uncomfortable that it makes swearing an oath such an everyday rote thing. If I swear to something, I'd like to think it has some meaning, yet for many of the formative years of my life I recited the Pledge rotely without even a second thought.

[EyeQueue]

Showing ignorance here, but do other countries have pledges similar to the American pledge? I know they have national anthems, but pledging allegiance to their flags/countries?

[mirele]

Another day, another whackjob legislative idea from the GOP-controlled Arizona legislature. *rolls eyes* At least my GOP representatives and senator didn't sign on to this thing.

We have serious problems in this state and these idiots spend their time wanting the pledge every day and loyalty oaths. In the meantime, the Lege won't vote money to help women and children escape Colorado City, or, at the very least, decertify the "Marshal's Office" which takes orders from Warren "Life-Plus Guest of the Texas Department of Corrections" Jeffs and won't enforce "gentile" law. I wish I was lying, but when presented the opportunity to do that, the Lege voted it down. Pffffth.

[Beammeup]

This is all sorts of wrong. And I'm a flag waiving, red blooded American. You don't take an oath of your own free will if you have to do so to graduate high school.

[JesusFightClub]

Showing ignorance here, but do other countries have pledges similar to the American pledge? I know they have national anthems, but pledging allegiance to their flags/countries?

We don't have it in Scotland. The worst you have to do is write in either Scots or Gaelic :lol:

(I got let off for "not being properly Scottish". My mum's English)

[RosyDaisy]

Here's what my fundie cousin post on my Facebook:

My response: "The original Pledge never had the words 'under God'. that was added by President Truman in 1952. Not wanting to use 'under God' does not make one unpatriotic. Furthermore, America is not a Christian nation according to the Constitution. Let's keep religion in churches and homes where it belongs and not foist it on the whole country. By the way, I am a Christian."

And her reply: "I will always use GOD in everything i do and for the rest of the world SHAME on them if not for GOD we all would not be here!!!! And it might not have been in the original.. but its there now!!!so people need to grow up and learn how to live like Christains! Thats whats wrong with the world no LOVE no RESPECT and who said you had to keep your religion at home and in church ? My GOD said i can serve him any where i want! Its this DUMB country that comes up with all that crap.... just saying... GOD MADE THIS COUNTRY!! and i will always put GOD first in everything i do!!"

This just made me want to :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: so I just deleted her rather than trying to argue with another wacko fundie.

[LeopardLady]

And of course it would be completely pointless to point out that she just did a 180 from saying that everyone should be patriotic to saying that the country was dumb for insisting on the separation of church and state. :roll:

[mebeforee]

I also wonder about pledges in other countries... I'm sure a lot of countries have/had them for very particular situations, but as far as I've ever heard the way our pledge is employed is kind of unique to the US.

My experience with it was that we recited it along with the morning announcements every day in elementary school, but in middle school, high school, and college we didn't. I did however move in the middle of grade school, and I can't remember if we recited it at both elementary schools I attended or only the first one, so it might vary by region. I also think that reciting it through grade school is partly so that young children learn the words, but since it is hardly ever used aside from that, there's really no reason they should have to. It reminds me of learning the Lord's Prayer in Sunday school, you know, you just memorize the lines and the rhythm. When you're that young, it's pretty much just about getting the words down so you don't embarrass your parents/teacher. So any time you have to say it through your life, you can do so without registering anything you're saying (unless you're actively thinking about the words as you recite it). Because of that, I remember many kids in school slipping up at the end and saying 'Amen' after finishing the Pledge of Allegiance. That's how mindless it becomes.

I agree that an oath like this shouldn't be so mundane that it becomes meaningless, but that happened for me when I was 9 years old and I'm afraid it's too late for it to change. On the upside, I don't ever really have to say it anymore.

[feministxtian]

Another day, another whackjob legislative idea from the GOP-controlled Arizona legislature. *rolls eyes* At least my GOP representatives and senator didn't sign on to this thing.

We have serious problems in this state and these idiots spend their time wanting the pledge every day and loyalty oaths. In the meantime, the Lege won't vote money to help women and children escape Colorado City, or, at the very least, decertify the "Marshal's Office" which takes orders from Warren "Life-Plus Guest of the Texas Department of Corrections" Jeffs and won't enforce "gentile" law. I wish I was lying, but when presented the opportunity to do that, the Lege voted it down. Pffffth.

What do you expect from these nutjobs?? My boss has a picture of the Mesa LDS temple hanging up prominently in his office...no pics of the wife and kids, but a pic of the temple...it's looking more and more like my grandson will be homeschooled...if for no other reason than to stay away from the right wing nutjobs that are just getting nuttier by the minute. And the Maricopa County whackjobs re-elected Sheriff Arpaio AGAIN!!! Talk about corrupt!

[flojo]

Later this year, after we get married, my fiancé and I may be moving to Arizona. He's atheist, I'm agnostic. I'm foreign (kiwi), he's a non nationalistic American. If my (hypothetical) child chooses to live the ideals this pledge supports, they are free too. Otherwise I'd genuinely consider moving state our country (them or family) for their final year.

[Dysfundamental]

By the time you move to AZ, the law will have been bounced as unconstitutional, as it discriminates against people whose religions don't permit them to swear oaths. You can't bar Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses a priori from graduating from high school.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'll agree with Comedy Central on this one - if it is required of everyone, it is coerced and therefore meaningless.

It could also backfire royally as I know religious Christians who won't take an oath. I'd love to see one of them challenge this.

[RosyDaisy]

And of course it would be completely pointless to point out that she just did a 180 from saying that everyone should be patriotic to saying that the country was dumb for insisting on the separation of church and state. :roll:

She's not known for having common sense, and personifies dumb, ignorant redneck.

[Cran]

Well, Germans are not considered to be ueberly-patriotic nowadays, so, we do not have a pledge recited in schools or anywhere. I think most peope would be hard pressed if asked to recite the first verse of our national anthem!

Of course, if you take public office, you have to swear an oath to protect the constitution etc., but nothing beyond that. If you go to court to testify, you are allowed to chose between to different confirmations for your testimonial, with religious affirmation ("So help me God!") or without it.

I remember one or two occasions the German flag was hoisted in my school days, and that only for very sad occasions, so the flag was at half-mast.

So, yes, i do find the US-American way of things strange. It's fine to be proud of you country, but America seems to be turning into a second Vatican city, where the head of state and all his ministers HAVE to subscribe to a specific kind of Christianity, and even more disturbing to me is this whiff of "god-ordained supremacy over other nations" and the inclination to play world police connected with it.

Frankly, I see nothing superior in the United States, and many things I regard as inferior compared to how things are run in many European countries. Social system, treatment of minorities, education, weapon laws, women's rights, the prominent role religion plays in public life (Nobody cares if Merkel goes to church or not!) and a state that is supposedly hands-off but interferes in the most ridiculous manner in every day life. So, Americans, be proud of you nation all you want, but please, leave the rest of the world alone with it.

[Childless]

Well, Germans are not considered to be ueberly-patriotic nowadays, so, we do not have a pledge recited in schools or anywhere. I think most peope would be hard pressed if asked to recite the first verse of our national anthem!

Of course, if you take public office, you have to swear an oath to protect the constitution etc., but nothing beyond that. If you go to court to testify, you are allowed to chose between to different confirmations for your testimonial, with religious affirmation ("So help me God!") or without it.

I remember one or two occasions the German flag was hissed in my school days, and that only for very sad occasions, so the flag was at half-mast.

So, yes, i do find the US-American way of things strange. It's fine to be proud of you country, but America seems to be turning into a second Vatican city, where the head of state and all his ministers HAVE to subscribe to a specific kind of Christianity, and even more disturbing to me is this whiff of "god-ordained supremacy over other nations" and the inclination to play world police connected with it.

Frankly, I see nothing superior in the United States, and many things I regard as inferior compared to how things are run in many European countries. Social system, treatment of minorities, education, weapon laws, women's rights, the prominent role religion plays in public life (Nobody cares if Merkel goes to church or not!) and a state that is supposedly hands-off but interferes in the most ridiculous manner in every day life. So, Americans, be proud of you nation all you want, but please, leave the rest of the world alone with it.

Posted again because I cannot like this enough. And I'm American!

[Roycroft]

Posted again because I cannot like this enough. And I'm American!

Thirded!

I'm in an odd position here; I'm an American, passport and all, but I had relatives (now dead) on the other side of WW2, and it has given me an abiding suspicion of flags, anthems, loyalty oaths, and pretty much anything that requires you to swear blind allegiance and to disconnect your emotions from your brain. And, since it's sheer chance which country a person is born into, I don't understand being proud of that at all. It makes about as much sense to me as being proud of being born with blue eyes, and we know how well THAT went. :(

I'm not offended at people flying flags or being patriotic, so long as they don't take it too far, but it most definitely is not for me.

[Cran]

OMG, did I really confuse to hoist with to hiss?! And now I can't edit it any more... wahhhh! :oops:

[happy atheist]

OMG, did I really confuse to hoist with to hiss?! And now I can't edit it any more... wahhhh! :oops:

I fixed it for you. Now will you admit the superiority of America? :D

[Trynn]

I got pretty disillusioned with American superiority even as a child, before I knew about the things Europe has that we don't (ie universal healthcare.) I decided the pledge of allegiance wasn't for me, so I made up my own words to go along with it and said those instead. I couldn't see a point in pledging my loyalty to a piece of fabric.

[Cran]

I fixed it for you. Now will you admit the superiority of America? :D

I submit most joyfully to the ultimate power of the most high and mighty FJ!

Is that good enough? I'll fetch your slippers, too, but I can't purr or bark, sorry.

But really: Thanks! So embarrassing!

[Esther]

I agree with what other Europeans have said previously - we do not have any equivalent to the Pledge of Allegiance and I think people would be either incredibly amused or incredibly offended if anyone tried to launch it in schools. It's really, really, really weird to us and more than a bit indoctrinatey/creepy. In fact, many Europeans don't seem to know Americans do this every day, and when I've explained it to elderly relatives, they've flat out refused to believe that is a thing. (That's when pedantic me Googles it and I PWN. :D)

I am not, by the way, an America-basher, generally. I lived there two years; it treated me reasonably well, and I have loads of American friends. However, I also don't think it happens to be the greatest thing/country ever created and I really dislike it when (mostly conservative) Americans act like we're Just Not Free over in Europe. We're pretty damn free, thanks.