Speaking of Proselytizing In the Military....

[FaustianSlip]

I just ran across this story on MSNBC. Apparently a First Class Cadet at West Point, about six months shy of his graduation and commissioning, has publicly announced his decision to leave the Academy, citing illegal proselytizing by officers and fellow cadets. Honestly, I'm not terribly shocked to hear this- it can be difficult if you're just a non-Christian (or a non-evangelical), but if someone starts trying to recruit you for Jesus and you tell them you're an atheist... in an environment that values conformity as much as one of the Service Academies, I have no trouble believing that this kid has received a bunch of flack.

He founded a chapter of the Secular Student Alliance and has written an article detailing his reasons for resigning here. Good for him, I say- what he's doing takes some serious stones, since he could be looking at up to five years of enlisted service or having to repay several hundred grand in tuition. I hope his actions have a tangible effect not only on West Point (which, frighteningly, is actually probably one of the better Academies when it comes to religious equality- the Air Force Academy is probably the worst) but the military at large. This casual flouting by evangelical chaplains of not only the regulations but the law has gone on quite long enough.

[cindyluvs24]

Just another example of fundies trying to co-opt American institutiuons for their own. I'm po'd that the Boy Scouts have announced an official partnership with American Heritage Girls. They're getting big bucks from various conservative foundations and apparently are more than willing to jump to their tune. So, to recap, they're buying up media , they're in the military, what's next?

[Maggie Mae]

I had a friend of mine from college post about this last night, and it was super weird how upset she was at the guy for quitting, it was obvious she just didn't get it. Which was weird, because we took the Constitution Law class. Which makes me think about how two people can hear the exact same information and take completely different things from it.

[Anxious Girl]

I love the hypocritical supporters of military prosleytizers saying if the atheist didn't like prayer service to ignore it and that they shouldn't have to openly respect atheists. How come they're only comftorable with only recognizing Christian prayers openly? I bet if a Hindu or a Muslim asked to have one of their prayers before a ceremony, these same people would flip a shit; because according to them Amurica is a true Christian country!!!!1!11eleventyone!1

[debrand]

Christian proselytizing can be very relentless and underhanded. Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I used to discuss stealth evangelism with other Christians. Of course, we did not call it 'stealth' evangelism but that is what it was. If someone isn't a Christian, you befriend them, engage them in conversation or even just make certain to always act in a super positive manner around them, all with the hopes of turning them to Christ. I see it as wrong and manipulative now but at the time, the most important thing to me was winning someone to Christ.

Modern American Christians-evangelicals especially- don't respect other people's boundaries. Any attempt to make them do so is viewed as persecution. For some odd reason, they can't put themselves into another person's situation. They would be uncomfortable if an atheist started meetings with a rally for nonbelief or if a Wiccan called on the god and goddess to bless their lunches.

[AnnieC 305]

It's not just him.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

[hoipolloi]

Shouldn't be surprised, I guess, that West Point is as bad as the Air Force Academy. The US military is a haven for fundie Christians & generally conservative folk. Drives me up a wall whenever I have to go on one of the local bases in order to renew a contractor's base pass - they only have Fox News playing in the waiting area. I've thought of investing in one of those gizmos that lets you change channels or mute TVs in areas like that or the airport.

I remember also from when I worked for the Army that most of the non-Academy military (enlisted & officers alike) referred to West Point grads as "ring knockers." They didn't think much of them.

[PennySycamore]

I had a dear friend who graduated from the Academy in the early 70s. At that time the chaplain was always Episcopalian and many of the Cadets joined the Episcopal Church. He was one of them but he was brought up Southern Baptist. He was also against the Vietnam War when most of the Cadets were for it.

In his later years of service, he would not allow the TV in his waiting room to be on Faux News. He would tune the TV to ESPN or maybe even MSNBC.

He would be very proud of this cadet.

[FaustianSlip]

Based on my experience there a few years ago and a number of friends who have gone to Castle Greyskull, I don't think it's as bad as the Air Force Academy, but that's really not saying much, given the stories I've heard come out of USAFA. The military is absolutely a haven for evangelical Christianity; I was pressured about the Christianity thing a couple of times in ROTC, for crying out loud! The guy doing it was a friend, but his parents were missionaries, and I think he did it as much out of habit as anything else- I called him out on it once, he seemed genuinely embarrassed, and it never happened again. But the climate of your average ROTC unit is a hell of a lot different than it is at a Service Academy, not least because you're not placed in the position of having to spend every minute of your time with those people if you don't want to. As it happened, I'm still great friends with most of my ROTC crew from college, but if we had hated each other, we all had plenty of time to spend apart, so it's tougher to implement a systematic approach of discrimination. No chaplains, either. By contrast, most cadets spend a huge percentage of their time at the school and are compelled to spend most of their free time around their fellow cadets and officers. If people are giving you a hard time because you're an atheist, you'll absolutely feel it.

My only beef with what this kid is doing is that he may have been better equipped to force change had he stayed, and as it stands now, he's very likely to have to serve five years in the military regardless. He would have been better off finishing up and doing it as an officer than chucking it all and doing it as an enlisted guy, though I understand that he wanted to make a statement about the religious situation in the military.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm not surprised at all. I hope what this guy did will somehow make a difference. You shouldn't have a hard time in the military for being an atheist, and that's one place I think Christian proselytizing shouldn't happen. (No kind of proselytizing really, but Christians try to convert other people more often than other religions).

[FaustianSlip]

It's not just atheists, either. Anyone who isn't an evangelical Christian (meaning Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, mainline and Catholic Christians) tends to be on the receiving end of pressure to conform and adopt if not evangelical beliefs, the external hallmarks of evangelical practice. I think Catholics may avoid some of it just by virtue of their numbers, but the rest can be very heavily pressured, not least because it's the luck of the draw as to what kind of chaplain representation you have, and a huge percentage of military chaplains are evangelical Christians. It's a really disturbing trend that needs to be stopped, but no one wants to address it because they're afraid of drawing criticism from the religious right. It's completely against the constitution that these people are defending, and the idea that someone who either doesn't believe or doesn't believe the "right" thing would face any kind of hassle for that when they're protecting the religious freedom of others at great personal risk is just outrageous to me.

[ElphabaGalinda]

It's not just atheists, either. Anyone who isn't an evangelical Christian (meaning Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, mainline and Catholic Christians) tends to be on the receiving end of pressure to conform and adopt if not evangelical beliefs, the external hallmarks of evangelical practice. I think Catholics may avoid some of it just by virtue of their numbers, but the rest can be very heavily pressured, not least because it's the luck of the draw as to what kind of chaplain representation you have, and a huge percentage of military chaplains are evangelical Christians. It's a really disturbing trend that needs to be stopped, but no one wants to address it because they're afraid of drawing criticism from the religious right. It's completely against the constitution that these people are defending, and the idea that someone who either doesn't believe or doesn't believe the "right" thing would face any kind of hassle for that when they're protecting the religious freedom of others at great personal risk is just outrageous to me.

That is the strangest part of me. They're protecting the religious freedoms of others at great personal risk, but too bad for them if they want religious freedoms of their own. I'm unfamiliar with the US military, and my experience with the Canadian military is limited, so hearing about this just makes me sad. My first thought was this has to not be allowed, but even if it's not , it happens. I always hear military people say that they're fighting to preserve the freedoms we enjoy in this country, but we should really be able to enjoy those freedoms everywhere, even in the military. I only know one guy in the Canadian Army, and he's Jewish and more observant than I am, and I don't think he's had the same problem, but I'm not familiar enough to know if it's the same.

I really don't understand proselytizing in general, but this is one of the situations where it never ever should happen.

[CynicMom]

Based on the Army people I know the thinking goes like this:

-there are a large number of people who have been through terrible military situations who report that their faith helped their military effectiveness (kept them alive, thinking clearly, making better decisions)

-therefore people who have faith are more militarily effective

Also,

-Divisiveness reduces military effectiveness, so

-You shouldn't do anything that would be divisive, and

-You should have the same devout religious belief as everyone else

If you bring up that "not doing anything divisive" included not allowing blacks or women for much of history they act that's a totally invalid comparison because..... because it is, that's why.

Also the AF Academy used to offer cadets two choices: they can get beat/march in formation/harassed on Sunday mornings or go to chapel. Their choice.

[lilith]

Based on my experience there a few years ago and a number of friends who have gone to Castle Greyskull, I don't think it's as bad as the Air Force Academy, but that's really not saying much, given the stories I've heard come out of USAFA. The military is absolutely a haven for evangelical Christianity; I was pressured about the Christianity thing a couple of times in ROTC, for crying out loud! The guy doing it was a friend, but his parents were missionaries, and I think he did it as much out of habit as anything else- I called him out on it once, he seemed genuinely embarrassed, and it never happened again. But the climate of your average ROTC unit is a hell of a lot different than it is at a Service Academy, not least because you're not placed in the position of having to spend every minute of your time with those people if you don't want to. As it happened, I'm still great friends with most of my ROTC crew from college, but if we had hated each other, we all had plenty of time to spend apart, so it's tougher to implement a systematic approach of discrimination. No chaplains, either. By contrast, most cadets spend a huge percentage of their time at the school and are compelled to spend most of their free time around their fellow cadets and officers. If people are giving you a hard time because you're an atheist, you'll absolutely feel it.

My only beef with what this kid is doing is that he may have been better equipped to force change had he stayed, and as it stands now, he's very likely to have to serve five years in the military regardless. He would have been better off finishing up and doing it as an officer than chucking it all and doing it as an enlisted guy, though I understand that he wanted to make a statement about the religious situation in the military.

He'll probably be given an even harder time serving as an enlisted man who will be known as "that guy from Westpoint who doesn't believe in God". I would assume that Christians are prevalent in the ranks too, and he'll be in an awkward spot where the officers look down on him for quitting and the other enlisted men would see him as different because he trained to be an officer.

[Ramona]

Updated Dec. 5, 2:25 p.m. ET: Cadet Blake Page has learned from his superiors at West Point that he will be given an honorable discharge and not be required to pay "recoupment" costs for three and a half years at the military academy. He told NBC News that when out-processing is finished, he will move to Minnesota and "continue the work I've started in whatever way I can."

that's posted as an update at the top of the story ~ so this means he won't get punished for leaving? (despite being a former brat myself, i have little idea how it all works.. ) .. i hope he doesn't.

[FaustianSlip]

Sounds like it. Basically, the way the Service Academies work is that you don't pay to attend; the expectation is that you will serve for five years after graduation and commissioning. The amount of time you "owe" may increase if you get additional training like flight school, medical school, et cetera. Because the average seventeen-year-old may not be in much position to think ten years down the road and know if they really want to be a military officer (and probably also to attract the highest possible caliber of applicants), you don't actually incur your service obligation on I-Day (Induction Day) when you first show up at West Point or the Naval Academy or wherever. You have the first two years to decide whether a military career is really what you want. The night before the first day of your Second Class (Junior) year is called "Two For Seven Night," because if you stay in the barracks that night and attend class the following day, you're trading your previous two years of education for what amounts to a seven-year obligation to the military: two more years at the Academy and five more in the service. If you drop out or flunk out after that point, you owe the military either some time (as an enlisted soldier, sailor or airman, since you won't commission) or some money.

The fact that this kid is getting out without having to pay for his time at West Point in either enlisted service or cold, hard cash is pretty amazing; from what I've heard, it's very rare that it happens. It makes me inclined to think that what he had to say has some degree of truth to it, because the government isn't generally inclined to give up nearly four years of high-quality education for free. I can't imagine them just letting that go if this guy didn't have either a valid case, a good lawyer or both, though I'm sure the publicity for his story didn't hurt.

For the non-Americans here, getting into one of the Service Academies is extremely difficult. Every matriculating cadet or midshipman has a congressional nomination from either their state's Senator or Congressional Representative or the President or Vice President (this isn't based on political connections, but usually an independent, in-state application and interview process), GPAs that are comparable to what Ivy League schools look for and a ton of leadership and extracurricular activities in high school. Getting through West Point is very challenging, both academically and militarily (the first year is basically one long round of boot camp punctuated by classes), and it's almost unheard of for someone to throw in the towel this close to graduation. For a cadet to make a public decision like this sends a very profound message, I think.

[<-- almost went to a Service Academy out of high school]

[Ramona]

Sounds like it. Basically, the way the Service Academies work is that you don't pay to attend; the expectation is that you will serve for five years after graduation and commissioning. The amount of time you "owe" may increase if you get additional training like flight school, medical school, et cetera. Because the average seventeen-year-old may not be in much position to think ten years down the road and know if they really want to be a military officer (and probably also to attract the highest possible caliber of applicants), you don't actually incur your service obligation on I-Day (Induction Day) when you first show up at West Point or the Naval Academy or wherever. You have the first two years to decide whether a military career is really what you want. The night before the first day of your Second Class (Junior) year is called "Two For Seven Night," because if you stay in the barracks that night and attend class the following day, you're trading your previous two years of education for what amounts to a seven-year obligation to the military: two more years at the Academy and five more in the service. If you drop out or flunk out after that point, you owe the military either some time (as an enlisted soldier, sailor or airman, since you won't commission) or some money.

The fact that this kid is getting out without having to pay for his time at West Point in either enlisted service or cold, hard cash is pretty amazing; from what I've heard, it's very rare that it happens. It makes me inclined to think that what he had to say has some degree of truth to it, because the government isn't generally inclined to give up nearly four years of high-quality education for free. I can't imagine them just letting that go if this guy didn't have either a valid case, a good lawyer or both, though I'm sure the publicity for his story didn't hurt.

For the non-Americans here, getting into one of the Service Academies is extremely difficult. Every matriculating cadet or midshipman has a congressional nomination from either their state's Senator or Congressional Representative or the President or Vice President (this isn't based on political connections, but usually an independent, in-state application and interview process), GPAs that are comparable to what Ivy League schools look for and a ton of leadership and extracurricular activities in high school. Getting through West Point is very challenging, both academically and militarily (the first year is basically one long round of boot camp punctuated by classes), and it's almost unheard of for someone to throw in the towel this close to graduation. For a cadet to make a public decision like this sends a very profound message, I think.

[<-- almost went to a Service Academy out of high school]

Wow, thanks for the detailed explanation! My father is retired from the Canadian Air Force, but I didn't live with him beyond the age of twelve, so Im only about half a brat :-p plus of course our system is likely a bit different. Now I'll know what people are talking about with regards to your academies and how it works. :)

[FaustianSlip]

I don't know how the Canadian system works entirely, but my understanding of the British equivalents (Sandringham et al) is that they're more of a finishing school for all officers to attend for a year or something like that, after finishing their university degrees. By contrast, the Service Academies only produce something like fourteen percent of the total officers in the military; the vast majority come through the Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC), which is a program in which you take military science classes and participate in military training simultaneous to regular university studies at a civilian university, and some others come through Officers' Training School (OTS), where you enlist, go through boot camp and then qualify to transition to the commissioned ranks. There has been debate in the past about whether places like West Point should remain as they are or be transformed into something more like Sandringham where officer candidates from all sources go for nine months or a year of final polish and a common experience before entering the regular military. I don't know that we'll ever do it, because the traditions and history surrounding the Service Academies are so strong.

There are a handful of civilian schools with a military ethos that are basically run as military academies (but not Service Academies) that are holdovers from a time when most states had a military academy that furnished gentlemen and officers for the state militia. The Citadel, VMI, Norwich, Virginia Tech and Texas A&M all have their own corps of cadets, but there is no service requirement and students don't always enter the military after graduation. Those that do are commissioned through the ROTC program, which is usually mandatory if you're going to be in the corps of cadets. The cultures of those schools are similar, but not totally the same as they are at a place like West Point. I suspect religious pressure put on cadets at, say, the Citadel could be much worse, in that the school doesn't really answer to anyone in the same way that West Point does.

[Lady_M]

Sounds like it. Basically, the way the Service Academies work is that you don't pay to attend; the expectation is that you will serve for five years after graduation and commissioning. The amount of time you "owe" may increase if you get additional training like flight school, medical school, et cetera. Because the average seventeen-year-old may not be in much position to think ten years down the road and know if they really want to be a military officer (and probably also to attract the highest possible caliber of applicants), you don't actually incur your service obligation on I-Day (Induction Day) when you first show up at West Point or the Naval Academy or wherever. You have the first two years to decide whether a military career is really what you want. The night before the first day of your Second Class (Junior) year is called "Two For Seven Night," because if you stay in the barracks that night and attend class the following day, you're trading your previous two years of education for what amounts to a seven-year obligation to the military: two more years at the Academy and five more in the service. If you drop out or flunk out after that point, you owe the military either some time (as an enlisted soldier, sailor or airman, since you won't commission) or some money.

The fact that this kid is getting out without having to pay for his time at West Point in either enlisted service or cold, hard cash is pretty amazing; from what I've heard, it's very rare that it happens. It makes me inclined to think that what he had to say has some degree of truth to it, because the government isn't generally inclined to give up nearly four years of high-quality education for free. I can't imagine them just letting that go if this guy didn't have either a valid case, a good lawyer or both, though I'm sure the publicity for his story didn't hurt.

For the non-Americans here, getting into one of the Service Academies is extremely difficult. Every matriculating cadet or midshipman has a congressional nomination from either their state's Senator or Congressional Representative or the President or Vice President (this isn't based on political connections, but usually an independent, in-state application and interview process), GPAs that are comparable to what Ivy League schools look for and a ton of leadership and extracurricular activities in high school. Getting through West Point is very challenging, both academically and militarily (the first year is basically one long round of boot camp punctuated by classes), and it's almost unheard of for someone to throw in the towel this close to graduation. For a cadet to make a public decision like this sends a very profound message, I think.

[<-- almost went to a Service Academy out of high school]

Thanks for the explanation, this helps me understand the situation much better.

[sandee]

Updated Dec. 5, 2:25 p.m. ET: Cadet Blake Page has learned from his superiors at West Point that he will be given an honorable discharge and not be required to pay "recoupment" costs for three and a half years at the military academy. He told NBC News that when out-processing is finished, he will move to Minnesota and "continue the work I've started in whatever way I can."

that's posted as an update at the top of the story ~ so this means he won't get punished for leaving? (despite being a former brat myself, i have little idea how it all works.. ) .. i hope he doesn't.

He isn't getting punished because he was medically disqualified from commissioning (source follow up HUFF-PO piece dated yesterday). It makes little difference to the academy if he quits now or leaves at graduation...he wouldn't be serving either way.

[Ramona]

He isn't getting punished because he was medically disqualified from commissioning (source follow up HUFF-PO piece dated yesterday). It makes little difference to the academy if he quits now or leaves at graduation...he wouldn't be serving either way.

"medically disqualified" ~ after he came forward against them?

[Coconut Flan]

I read that he was medically disqualified by "severe depression" about a month before he decide to leave. He knew that there would be no issues over his leaving. Did the issues over religion impact the depression? No idea. If the military thought a case for that could be made, I imagine that they'd get him right out the door ASAP.

[sandee]

"medically disqualified" ~ after he came forward against them?

hardly...nothing in the military moves ever moves that fast.

"Page said he had been medically disqualified this semester from receiving a commission in the Army as a second lieutenant – like his classmates will receive in May – because of clinical depression and anxiety. He said his condition has gotten worse since his father killed himself last year." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/0 ... 47067.html

[sandee]

Also the AF Academy used to offer cadets two choices: they can get beat/march in formation/harassed on Sunday mornings or go to chapel. Their choice.

Interesting...can't speak to USAFA...but my choices as a USMA cadet in the late 90s (mandatory chapel at USMA ended in 1972)on Sunday mornings looked a lot more like this: (1)put on an uncomfortable uniform and go to chapel or (2) do what ever the hell I wanted (sleep, homework, go work out)

I usually chose the latter, as did the majority of my classmates.

My favorite recent article about USMA chapels/religion: http://outservemag.com/2012/12/first-ga ... est-point/

[desertvixen]

He had been medically disqualified before making his statement. From the tone of the blog post, I think the religion factor played in some, but he had other issues going on.

A lot of what I'm seeing from the military people I know is that he has a point - it's an issue. I don't think this is really a productive way of addressing it, and I feel like the only way for the military culture to change is for the non-religious/non-Christian among us to speak up. For the leaders among us, to ensure that our soldiers get the support they need, and that we speak up when it's making people uncomfortable.

My future brother-in-law is a former enlisted man who went to West Point, and he reports having been required to go to an evangelical service as part of "inprocessing" as late as the 2000s. I've been in a few where it wasn't technically required but there was definitely pressure.

I have been in one unit where it was a major issue/point of discomfort, but to an extent it varies by unit and by branch - my branch seems to have a lot less of it.