Bristol University Christian Union Bans Women From Speaking

[Boogalou]

No one's asking you to congratulate the RC church. But there is a distinction between the Catholic and fundamentalist/evangelical churches in that women are allowed to have brains as well as uteri, and when one starts misrepresenting something or someone by claiming easily disprovable things it's that much easier for the other side (and people on the fence) to write them off as ignorant and not worthy of listening to. See us snarking on the anti-choice movement and fundies as an example.

You implied the RC church doesn't allow women to speak in its meetings when it's not true. If you want to claim that the Catholic church doesn't actually listen to them, you have my total agreement.

And yes, I do think that allowing married women to speak when none could before is a step forward. It's a tiny and completely bullshit step (that I will still roll my eyes at) because they're speaking under the cover of their husbands, so basically it's the men speaking through their wives, but I hope it inspires the other women to agitate for their own right to speak or boycott the group.

I never said that women are not allowed to speak in the Catholic Church or at meetings, I said they are not allowed to enter the priesthood, which is true. I just see very little difference between the two, other people may see more of a difference. And they are actually taking a step backwards, not forward:

The Bristol University Christian Union (BUCU) had originally decided women would be allowed to teach at meetings after their international secretary resigned in protest, but the group has since changed its policy.

Actually, wait. This is confusing now. Was it that women were not allowed to speak, then the secretary resigned, then they were allowed to speak, and then they went back to the original policy? Now I don't get it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually, wait. This is confusing now. Was it that women were not allowed to speak, then the secretary resigned, then they were allowed to speak, and then they went back to the original policy? Now I don't get it.

The original HuffPo post seems to have been muddled.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/de ... nion-women

In the readers' comments beneath the Tab's article one person claimed women had not been allowed to teach for at least seven years. The reader said allowing women to speak in certain settings was actually a step forward.

It appears that the Christian Union was considering letting women teach at all meetings but after one of its senior members resigned in protest decided that they should only be allowed to do so in certain settings and so put out the controversial memo laying out the position.

edit to remove super-long quote

[Sola]

Ashamed this is happening in my city.

Indeed. I had a dream I was in Bristol last night, visiting a friend that lives in Totterdown.

/OT

This is becoming more common here. The fundyism is insidious. I was pleased to note that the government clarified the other day that any school that teaches creationism as science will lose government funding. But what with challenges to abortion law, fuss over gay marriage, fundyism is trying to get a foot hold.

[Palimpsest]

Bristol is not conservative AT ALL. It's just a fucking fundie CU.

Agreed. My nephew is in his 3rd year at Bristol on a Choral Scholarship. He is not at all conservative, nor is he religious, despite the best efforts of his Methodist ex-missionary parents. Even if he wanted to join the CU at Bristol they probably wouldn't have him. :lol: I'll have to ask him what he thinks. It sounds as though the Bristol Student Union is going to clamp down on the CU because this policy is clearly discriminatory. It would be interesting if the Student Union kicked the CU out.

Back in my day (the dark ages!) the CU at Goldsmiths was very evangelical and male dominated, but women were actually allowed to take leadership positions and educate. I was never an official member but my room-mate in my first year was a very dedicated God Squadder. I went to a couple of meetings but usually escaped to the local pub while she lead Bible Studies in our shared room. :twisted:

[Guest Anonymous]

OK, folks, it's time for us all to CALM DOWN! The BUCU is full of nice people who give away TOASTIES! Stop fretting about "secondary issues" now.....

http://www.bristolvantage.com/2012/12/0 ... lmed-down/

[thekate]

I never said that women are not allowed to speak in the Catholic Church or at meetings, I said they are not allowed to enter the priesthood, which is true. I just see very little difference between the two, other people may see more of a difference. And they are actually taking a step backwards, not forward:

Actually, wait. This is confusing now. Was it that women were not allowed to speak, then the secretary resigned, then they were allowed to speak, and then they went back to the original policy? Now I don't get it.

I was going off the quote that there had been no female speakers allowed for at least the past 7 years. If that is mistaken, I revoke my limited acknowledgement of a tiny step forward.

Yes, your exact words were that Catholicism does not have female priests, but then saying it wasn't a leap read to me that you saw no difference when there is a (huge) difference of degree, at least to me. Thank you for clearing that up that you don't see a difference. I had read it as only snarking, but you were sincere (as well as snarking). Obviously we disagree about that, but that is a different discussion. It reminds me of the "should we call spanking abuse" discussion going on in the [link=http://www.freejinger.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14146]Kim C./candy[/link] thread right now. I see degrees. If this were archaeology, I'm a splitter and you're a lumper.

Catholicism may not have female priests, but it does have a longstanding and vocal feminist tradition, whereas evangelicalism on the whole tends to squash or marginalize feminist voices. As an ex-evangelical woman, I'm often envious of my Catholic friends for all the antifeminist crap they DIDN'T have to put up with in their formative years.

The type of evangelicalism displayed by this CU is especially pernicious, because it slaps "biblical" on its decisions as a substitute for having to explain its thinking (or lack thereof).

It's as though fundies don't actually want women to exist, except for the continuation of human existence (and even that is icky). I think Catholicism is much more open about acknowledging they pick and choose parts of the Bible to follow or ignore and that parts may be allegorical. This has contributed to their acceptance of thinking about "why" other than "the Bible says so," which, even if I don't agree with their conclusions, I respect them for more than fundies.

[Guest Anonymous]

OK, folks, it's time for us all to CALM DOWN! The BUCU is full of nice people who give away TOASTIES! Stop fretting about "secondary issues" now.....

http://www.bristolvantage.com/2012/12/0 ... lmed-down/

Oh, but it's not just toasties! It's tea and hot chocolate too! And the decision to allow women to be secondary speakers, or speak alongside their husbands, is a 'bold progressive move'. If I weren't typing this on a smartphone, on the internet, I'd be worried that the time machine is on the fritz again.

I love the 'witchhunt' theme. It's full-on PERSECUTION!!1!eleventy111!

[moodygirl86]

Holy shit! This wouldn't surprise me if this happened in Bristol (Tennessee) but Bristol (UK)?!

One bullshit argument against women being in positions of leadership is that none of Jesus's apostles were women in the Bible. Well, I say there was no Internet in the Bible either but that doesn't stop these twats using the worldwide web to preach about how great they are. Come on fundies! If you're going to be puritanical, at least be consistent about it!

[mirele]

Holy shit! This wouldn't surprise me if this happened in Bristol (Tennessee) but Bristol (UK)?!

One bullshit argument against women being in positions of leadership is that none of Jesus's apostles were women in the Bible. Well, I say there was no Internet in the Bible either but that doesn't stop these twats using the worldwide web to preach about how great they are. Come on fundies! If you're going to be puritanical, at least be consistent about it!

Erm, fuck that noise. The apostles found out about the resurrection from Mary Magdalene, or, in other versions, from the women who went out to the tomb to finish the burial proceedings. That's because the apostles were, in general, too chickenshit to be around Jesus, even in death, because they had something to lose. (It's also worth noting that with the exception of John, none of the apostles were at the foot of the cross, either.)

[Guest Anonymous]

The Student Union are investigating and, as they have a well-established Equal Opps Policy it can only end in the CU either leaving the Student Union and funding itself or changing the CU policy.

The frightening thing is that they have managed to fly under the radar for 7 years without anyone on the inside spilling the beans. I'm guessing that the email from the President telling people to be careful not to 'gossip' represents the tip of the iceberg in terms of how the CU must have guilt-tripped members into accepting the status quo and not speaking out. The Twitter feeds of various CU and UCCF folks are abuzz with messages of 'prayer support' and cries for Christians to be 'unified' in supporting BUCU. Mysoginistic fuckers that they are. :?

[Guest Anonymous]

And here is the statement from the Bristol University Christian Union: http://www.uccf.org.uk/student/news/buc ... eakers.htm

BUCU statement on women speakers

Bristol University Christian Union (BUCU) deplores the recent exaggerations and misrepresentations in some parts of the media of its position on women's ministry in the church.

It is well known that Christian churches differ on this question. BUCU is not a church, but a student society, so it has never had a formal policy on women's ministry.

In recent months, the Executive Committee have been exploring ways in which BUCU can best accommodate members with divergent and strongly held convictions, while expressing our unity as Christian believers. In line with our basic position throughout that process, which has not been widely publicised, the Executive Committee now wish to make clear that we will extend speaker invitations to both women and men, to all BUCU events, without exception.

BUCU is utterly committed to reflecting the core biblical truth of the fundamental equality of women and men.

BUCU Executive Committee

5 December 2012

Hmmm... sounds like they are re-writing history to me. How does an email to all members explaining when and where women may and may not speak translate into "not a formal policy"?

And I'd like them to expound upon the idea of a "core biblical truth of the fundamental equality of women and men." I'm guessing "equal but different" might come into it. :roll:

[spud]

BUCU statement on women speakers

Bristol University Christian Union (BUCU) deplores the recent exaggerations and misrepresentations in some parts of the media of its position on women's ministry in the church.

It is well known that Christian churches differ on this question. BUCU is not a church, but a student society, so it has never had a formal policy on women's ministry.

In recent months, the Executive Committee have been exploring ways in which BUCU can best accommodate members with divergent and strongly held convictions, while expressing our unity as Christian believers. In line with our basic position throughout that process, which has not been widely publicised, the Executive Committee now wish to make clear that we will extend speaker invitations to both women and men, to all BUCU events, without exception.

BUCU is utterly committed to reflecting the core biblical truth of the fundamental equality of women and men.

BUCU Executive Committee

5 December 2012

But that's the same policy that started this furore. Will they change it to allow women to be LEAD speaker and/or TEACH without their husbands holding the leash?

They're having their weekly meeting tomorrow night in Clifton. The topic is 'How can we be diverse yet live as one family?' I'm sure yesterday the info on their website said all are welcome, but it's been removed now (still in the flyer here - http://www.bristolcu.org.uk/wp-content/ ... -trial.jpg).

Would it be too stalkerish to attend? I'd love to know what they'll be talking about.

[Guest Anonymous]

But that's the same policy that started this furore. Will they change it to allow women to be LEAD speaker and/or TEACH without their husbands holding the leash?

They're having their weekly meeting tomorrow night in Clifton. The topic is 'How can we be diverse yet live as one family?' I'm sure yesterday the info on their website said all are welcome, but it's been removed now (still in the flyer here - http://www.bristolcu.org.uk/wp-content/ ... -trial.jpg).

Would it be too stalkerish to attend? I'd love to know what they'll be talking about.

Nope - go! If I didn't have a prior commitment, I would have gone over there myself. Possibly wearing a floppy hat and glasses as I may know some of the UCCF workers from my past and I could not really blend in as a young student any more. :mrgreen:

[Guest Anonymous]

Aha: tomorrow's speaker is this guy , Brian Whittaker, who studied at Bristol and now works for UCCF supporting Bristol CU. So he would have been part of the CU and complicit with the policies during the times of the full-on ban on women speakers.

http://www.uccf.org.uk/our-team/south-w ... ttaker.htm

His wife is a good biblical woman and makes him proud apparently according to his twitter feed:

Br*****W****

Really helpful practical stuff from @[hiswife'sname] on marriage and Biblical womanhood at weekend away. #proudhusband

[spud]

Aha: tomorrow's speaker is this guy who studied at Bristol and now works for UCCF supporting Bristol CU. So he would have been part of the CU and complicit with the policies during the times of the full-on ban on women speakers.

http://www.uccf.org.uk/our-team/south-w ... ttaker.htm

Seems like an unusual career path for a law graduate.....

http://www.bristolcu.org.uk/about/exec/

Interestingly, Mrs Whittaker would be one of the few women allowed to teach at their weekly meetings (I'm assuming most female members are students and unlikely to be married).

[Guest Anonymous]

Seems like an unusual career path for a law graduate.....

http://www.bristolcu.org.uk/about/exec/

Interestingly, Mrs Whittaker would be one of the few women allowed to teach at their weekly meetings (I'm assuming most female members are students and unlikely to be married).

Whoop! Maybe Brian will allow her to speak on Biblical Womanhood then. That should help settle all the Secondary Issue women down and help them feel all pink and fluffy again. :whistle:

[spud]

Whoop! Maybe Brian will allow her to speak on Biblical Womanhood then. That should help settle all the Secondary Issue women down and help them feel all pink and fluffy again. :whistle:

Well, he lets her tweet about it anyway,

The differences between men and women need to be recognized, taken into account and addressed in the course of Christian discipleship #true

We ought to have an intentional, deliberate approach to female discipleship because men and women are different. #womensministry

Biblical womanhood is a covenantal concept. The helper design would be illogical in an autonomous vacuum. #true

Off to get my beauty sleep now, these christian kids stay up late.

[Guest Anonymous]

Did you go, spud?

Or maybe you are still there, responding to the altar call and signing up to share Jesus toasties out on the streets of Brizzle tommorow night.... :D

[spud]

No, sorry, I didn't go in the end. It's only about a mile from my workplace, but it was really cold and pouring with rain and I'd had a long day.

I would make the world's worst investigative reporter. :oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

Aw, bless! I often find the idea of intercepting these events is way more appealing than the reality. :)

Jesus won, anyway, according to the uccf worker's twitter feed. The hashtag didn't seem to trend anywhere but that's persekushun for you. :whistle:

[freejoytoo]

Spud, we must live incredibly near each other!

[spud]

Well, I'm in Bemmy but work in Harbourside. The earlier Totterdown reference made me squeal a bit...but, y'know only cos it's a US-based site. There do seem to be tonnes of us Brits on here.