Just hide the damn candy

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, Irishy, I understand irony. I didn't recognise any in that thread. I don't intend to re-hash it all now, I was only reminded of that thread when you made your earlier post about women "being nasty to other women". I do think it is important to note that I don't personally think all forum fall-outs are identical in nature.

But, ultimately, I think that if we all speak up if we feel that a discussion is becoming "bullying" then that should reduce the incidence of people feeling isolated in whatever viewpoints they hold.

[Irishy]

Yes, I understand irony. I didn't recognise any in that thread. I don't intend to re-hash it all now, I was only reminded of that thread when you made your earlier post about women "being nasty to other women". I do think it is important to note that I don't personally think all forum fall-outs are identical in nature.

But, ultimately, I think that if we all speak up if we feel that a discussion is becoming "bullying" then that should reduce the incidence of people feeling isolated in whatever viewpoints they hold.

Well then we are not as similar in culture as I'd thought.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anniec do you have no understanding of irony or tongue in cheek speak? As a British person I thought you might. But then, maybe not.

I think it is possible that we just have a different understanding of what the words "irony" and "tongue in cheek" mean.

For "irony" I tend to go with the dictionary definition of something like: "feigned ignorance" or "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning".

"Tongue in cheek" I'd say means something said but not meant to be taken seriously.

In an earlier post in this thread you said: "thank you, thank you for re hashing this for me. I'd just love another argument about how anti woman I am.". On the basis that you had previously described the other thread as unpleasant, I would say that those words are an example of sarcasm, which is a form of irony.

In the other thread, one thing that you said that generated a lot of heat was: "I still believe there are differences, generally speaking, between the sexes. Boys wreck your house, girls wreck your head. I see it since I've had a girl after 3 boys. I never believed it before." That statement was consistent with other comments on gender differences that you had previously made, so it did not seem to meet the criteria of irony for me. Part of it was an 'old saying' yes. But not an ironic saying. Tongue in cheek? Well, possibly you intended it that way, but as this post was actually the fourth or fifth in a row where you had asserted that small girls are essentially different in nature to small boys, it seemed as though you were being serious.

[Irishy]

I think it is possible that we just have a different understanding of what the words "irony" and "tongue in cheek" mean.

For "irony" I tend to go with the dictionary definition of something like: "feigned ignorance" or "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning".

"Tongue in cheek" I'd say means something said but not meant to be taken seriously.

In an earlier post in this thread you said: "thank you, thank you for re hashing this for me. I'd just love another argument about how anti woman I am.". On the basis that you had previously described the other thread as unpleasant, I would say that those words are an example of sarcasm, which is a form of irony.

In the other thread, one thing that you said that generated a lot of heat was: "I still believe there are differences, generally speaking, between the sexes. Boys wreck your house, girls wreck your head. I see it since I've had a girl after 3 boys. I never believed it before." That statement was consistent with other comments on gender differences that you had previously made, so it did not seem to meet the criteria of irony for me. Part of it was an 'old saying' yes. But not an ironic saying. Tongue in cheek? Well, possibly you intended it that way, but as this post was actually the fourth or fifth in a row where you had asserted that small girls are essentially different in nature to small boys, it seemed as though you were being serious.

Look, I'll freely admit that on my part there was a lot of actual ignorance as well as feigned. But my crimes were not of epic proportions. I was annihilated. The punishment did not fit the crime. Same story here on this thread.

[formergothardite]

I just think that if a male poster had come in here and said that he had hit his wife in the head (but hey he was emotional and his wife admitted she was being a twat) and kicked his dog for not obeying, even if he also admitted those things were wrong and abuse, people would have reacted differently. Especially if this guy also said, don't you dare call me an abuser I don't like that label.

[OkToBeTakei]

I just think that if a male poster had come in here and said that he had hit his wife in the head (but hey he was emotional and his wife admitted she was being a twat) and kicked his dog for not obeying, even if he also admitted those things were wrong and abuse, people would have reacted differently. Especially if this guy also said, don't you dare call me an abuser I don't like that label.

I don't have a dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

Look, I'll freely admit that on my part there was a lot of actual ignorance as well as feigned. But my crimes were not of epic proportions. I was annihilated. The punishment did not fit the crime. Same story here on this thread.

All I was trying to get at in my earlier response to _lilith was that I think that there are 'shades of grey' or variances in the reasons that threads on FJ become inflammatory.

An example I gave was that I think some posters (like yourself in that thread), sometimes generate a lot of heat because you put out inflammatory statements which simply exercise a lot of people. At least a part of what I think made that thread so long was that you continued to put out inflammatory (and often contradictory) statements that caused a lot of people to think "WTF?!" and comment on it. You gave as good as you got and used a fair amount of abusive and insulting language yourself. Which I would contrast with OK's contribution in this thread which has been quite consistent and measured throughout, in my opinion.

You also seem to be repeating some of that pattern of behaviour here with me now. I disagreed with you and pointed to the issues upon which I disagreed, so you countered by changing the subject and suggesting a failure in my understanding of irony and my grasp of British culture

ETA: I am not disagreeing with you to 'punish' you. I am disagreeing because this is a snark board and the way it works is that if you say something I disagree with, I have a right to reply.

[formergothardite]

I didn't say you did. I said that if a male poster came in here and said, I hit my wife in the head and kicked my dog and sure those things are wrong, but don't call me an abuser, I think people would have reacted differently.

[OkToBeTakei]

I didn't say you did. I said that if a male poster came in here and said, I hit my wife in the head and kicked my dog and sure those things are wrong, but don't call me an abuser, I think people would have reacted differently.

No, what you are doing is continuing this conversation on to drive home your own agenda which is quite probably to make me admit I am an abuser. It would appear then that you have won, or are right without any nod whatsover to anybody else's opinion.

[Guest Anonymous]

I didn't say you did. I said that if a male poster came in here and said, I hit my wife in the head and kicked my dog and sure those things are wrong, but don't call me an abuser, I think people would have reacted differently.

OK did not 'come in here' and say those things in that way. She didn't say anything different to what I said, and actually as the mother of the child she smacked, I'd say my wrongdoing (as an unrelated carer) was greater than hers, in the eyes of the law, at least.

All three of us (OK, me and you) have admitted that we smacked a child, felt bad and never did it again. All of us have acknowledged the act as abuse and have explained (but did not excuse) our behaviour in terms of our own personal experiences and the prevailing culture of the time.

What is it that makes OK in particular "an abuser"?

[Irishy]

All I was trying to get at in my earlier response to _lilith was that I think that there are 'shades of grey' or variances in the reasons that threads on FJ become inflammatory.

An example I gave was that I think some posters (like yourself in that thread), sometimes generate a lot of heat because you put out inflammatory statements which simply exercise a lot of people. At least a part of what I think made that thread so long was that you continued to put out inflammatory (and often contradictory) statements that caused a lot of people to think "WTF?!" and comment on it. You gave as good as you got and used a fair amount of abusive and insulting language yourself. Which I would contrast with OK's contribution in this thread which has been quite consistent and measured throughout, in my opinion.

You also seem to be repeating some of that pattern of behaviour here with me now. I disagreed wiith you and pointed to the issues upon which I disagreed, so you countered by changing the subject and suggesting a failure in my understanding of irony and my grasp of British culture

ETA: I am not disagreeing with you to 'punish' you. I am disagreeing because this is a snark board and the way it works is that if you say something I disagree with, I have a right to reply.

I nearly lost my mind on THAT thread. My comments were all over the place. I was insulting and nasty in return as a defence mechanism. The difference is, I was alone in that defence and that's a horrible feeling.

I would in no way compare myself or my response to OKTB. She is far more eloquent and measured and far more respectful to her fellow posters than I could ever claim to be.

The similarity I see, is that it's more or less the same three attackers. Women who claim to be feminists yet are absolutely vile to other women. Women who have been honest and upfront and are doing their very best with their lives. NOT women who lock their kids in a prayer closet, who don't educate their kids, who deliberately and knowingly fuck up their kids' lives, day in day out. Bit of perspective is all!

ETA, I am not British. I am sure you have a grasp on British culture. I meant that you're a little closer to Irish culture and how we banter than US posters but still, the two are very different.

[27randomscribbles]

I will probably regret posting this, but I haven't had coffee yet...

First of all, the jumping on OK isn't good IMO. Admitting things like that are hard, but it shows that some learn and change. That to me is the goal, and jumping on someone who has changed seems to make people not want to speak out and get help.

I guess I'm an abuser. I don't like labeling myself that way. I don't like labeling my parents as abusers. They spanked (beat till I had bruises, kicked me, gave me a fake exorcism, and other things I've mentioned in other threads), as well as used God and emotional threats to fuck me up. And I'm an adoptee as well. But I still have trouble actually calling them abusers. I blame religion, and believe they meant well. But that doesn't change anything.

And I have hit my husband and yelled at him in the past. When I get frustrated, I yell and hit. Which is exactly what my parents did, although they did always assure me that it was all for my own good and because they loved me. And that kills me, to know that I'm no better. I am in therapy and working through my history to be a better person, wife, etc. I have forgiven my parents for what they did to me. But I know I have to stop the cycle. And that's why I'm in therapy. I refuse to have children until I have moved past my ways of dealing with frustration and anger, since I will never spank my children.

On a side note:

I need help. My parents (even though they are in their sixties) are raising my niece because my sister is too lazy to take care of her and doesn't want to anyways. My parents promised me they wouldn't spank her.

They visited recently and they mentioned they had just had to spank her since she was being too defiant and hard headed, and they had no choice.

My problems now:

1. If I push the issue, it opens a can of worms and I will have to finally be open with my parents about the serious harm their treatment of me caused. So far they don't know anything, because I haven't confronted them.

2. I am in my twenties, married but have no kids. Who am I to give parenting advice to my own parents! Especially since they didn't even ask to raise another child, and it is extremely stressful on them at their age.

Any ideas on what I can do? I can't stop them from hurting her with religion (they don't know I'm not Christian anymore)...but if I let them spank her like they did me--I know how they can get. I have terrible memories of being hit and screamed at and that feeling makes me want to ensure that she will never have to go through that. I don't want her to end up like me--someone who learned that hitting is an acceptable response to anger.

My niece is three. How the hell is she defiant? I always feel like the liberal elitist daughter who thinks she knows better because I read a lot about child raising and stuff...but my parents and I seriously disagree about what children do intentionally out of defiance or whatever, and what children just "do" because they are children. In therapy I'm finding it so hard to get past the question of "what must I have done that was so bad" and "I must be a horrible person" because of the way my parents dealt with my horrible defiance and misbehavior. (Mostly not doing my homework, talking back, cursing, and not cleaning my room). Logically I know these are things kids do. Iogically I know I didn't actually do horrible things (what kid doesn't talk back?). But emotionally I'm still grappling with the idea that I was bad, and that I'll never be good enough.

This was major TL;DR. Sorry. But I needed to mention my mistakes and also ask for help for my little niece. I have to do something.

[Guest Anonymous]

Your post brings out a lot of difficult issues. Whereabouts are you located?

As a general point, yes 3-year olds can be very defiant. It is part of a natural developmental stage, at an age where they are becoming aware of themselves as individuals, distinct from their parents and carers. That your parents have a history of abusive behaviour, and no apparent parenting tools in their repertoire to manage this very normal, if challenging, stage puts this little one in a very vulnerable position.

My very strong advice would be to make a call to whatever child protection agency you have in your area and discuss the issues at the level of detail needed (that it would probably not be prudent to put out here) in order for them to help you deal with this. In the UK, for example, we have the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, and they have experienced, first-line telephone staff who can run through an assessment (anonymously in the first instance, if need be) and help give advice specific to your situation and your location.

[27randomscribbles]

I guess I balk at the idea of calling cps. So far it's just the standard "pat on the butt". The problem is I know where it can go. But I want to stop it before it gets there.

Another memory this brings up: My parents used to tell us to go ahead and call the police when they spanked us...then they'd take us away and we would never see them again. They'd even take the phone and hand it to us.

I will say they are Better in many ways since I was a kid. But they still have things to learn and religion is still pretty important to them.

[Guest Anonymous]

I guess I balk at the idea of calling cps. So far it's just the standard "pat on the butt". The problem is I know where it can go. But I want to stop it before it gets there.

Another memory this brings up: My parents used to tell us to go ahead and call the police when they spanked us...then they'd take us away and we would never see them again. They'd even take the phone and hand it to us.

I will say they are Better in many ways since I was a kid. But they still have things to learn and religion is still pretty important to them.

As I said, I don't know where you are or what resources are available in your area. In the UK we have helplines to which people can make anonymous calls and have a preliminary discussion to help them decide whether the situation is one for the CPS or whether there are other resources/support available.

It seems to me there are two separate but related issues here: your niece's safety and your own residual distress from childhood. My advice is that it may be helpful to try to separate the two for now if you can, at least for long enough to research the options available to help your niece, and to refer her case on if necessary.

This is a public forum - what you need in order to help your niece is a safe space in which you can talk in honest detail with a trained professional.

[OkToBeTakei]

Are you ready to open up that can of worms or is it still too raw? Do you think if you told them your experience it would help your niece in anyway? Or are you frightened it would make things worse?

You said they have improved. Have they improved enough to listen? It is interesting they told you they hit her. Is that in any way an indication they may be looking for advice in view of the fact they had said they never intended to do it?

I'm sorry rather any help I think I've just compiled a load of questions :(

Maybe others may have some more practical advice.

[AVENues]

... What is it that makes OK in particular "an abuser"?

Thank you.

[Guest Anonymous]

I nearly lost my mind on THAT thread. My comments were all over the place. I was insulting and nasty in return as a defence mechanism. The difference is, I was alone in that defence and that's a horrible feeling.

I would in no way compare myself or my response to OKTB. She is far more eloquent and measured and far more respectful to her fellow posters than I could ever claim to be.

The similarity I see, is that it's more or less the same three attackers. Women who claim to be feminists yet are absolutely vile to other women. Women who have been honest and upfront and are doing their very best with their lives. NOT women who lock their kids in a prayer closet, who don't educate their kids, who deliberately and knowingly fuck up their kids' lives, day in day out. Bit of perspective is all!

ETA, I am not British. I am sure you have a grasp on British culture. I meant that you're a little closer to Irish culture and how we banter than US posters but still, the two are very different.

So it's banter now, not irony? Honestly, you still seem to be changing your argument every time you post.

It wasn't just the "same three attackers" who responded to your other thread. At least a dozen separate people chimed in and commented not just on the sexist things you were saying, but also on the way you changed your argument and contradicted yourself every other post. Also, the thread wasn't all about you... the furore died down after a while and the topic moved onto several pages about gun possession and law, until you popped up again and turned the spotlight back on yourself.

You weren't being attacked for being "honest and upfront and doing the very best with [your] life". You were being called out on some fairly bizarre posting on a particular topic that you introduced to a particular thread.

If you don't want to re-hash history then don't try to re-write it.

[Irishy]

Oh my god. Really, I don't want to re hash, that's true. I have never re read the damn thing. To me, the word banter means chat, conversation, speaking. Irony is a form of expression. I don't understand why the two couldn't co exist. I see no reason why you have a bone to pick with me. I have no beef with you. Except I don't really get the reason for your hostility. I really have nothing more to say on the subject of the other thread. It was horrible and I've no wish to re visit that horror.

[Irishy]

On the grandparent subject. It's hard. My parents brought up my niece. They lost the grandparent-grandchild relationship and it became a parent-child relationship. They ended up parenting her the same way they had parented us. Not perfect, but very loving. I think there is enormous value in that loving that may be impossible to recapture in a state care situation. It's whether you're prepared to accept the bad along with the love. In your case, it's spanking. Some here might say that that cancels out all the good. I don't know. Each situation is unique. I accept that it's very hard to be presented with a child to rear in your retirement years. That your parents are even willing is admirable. I know plenty of grandparents who would not be.

[dpndetfarm]

I guess I balk at the idea of calling cps. So far it's just the standard "pat on the butt". The problem is I know where it can go. But I want to stop it before it gets there.

Another memory this brings up: My parents used to tell us to go ahead and call the police when they spanked us...then they'd take us away and we would never see them again. They'd even take the phone and hand it to us.

I will say they are Better in many ways since I was a kid. But they still have things to learn and religion is still pretty important to them.

You are in a really tough spot. Like my husband you are at the point where you understand that your upbringing was not acceptable, but you haven't mastered or found all the new and better tools for raising the next generation.

Would your parents be willing to read a book if you gently suggested it and just quietly hint that a different form of parenting my be healthier than what you went through? Not judgmental, just letting them know that some children can come off as defiant on the outside, but are actually taking everything personally and to heart on the inside. They might find the book Raising your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka to be a low key, nonjudgmental, introduction to parenting "difficult" or "defiant" children. just ask them to read it for you. And then talk about it.

While the book is a support and help book for parents of children who used to be called "mother killers" on the Chess Chart, I do believe it would be helpful for fundy parents who see all children in this light. Anyway, good luck and keep going to therapy. It's for you, not anyone else. And I guarantee that when you are tired, hungry, angry, sad (THAS) you will fall back on what you know instinctively. But it will happen less and less over time. It is a long process, but so worth it. I will be thinking of you.

Kristin

[B5SnowDog]

Anniec do you have no understanding of irony or tongue in cheek speak? As a British person I thought you might. But then, maybe not. My error was simply that I was a blabber mouth and yes I made mistakes thinking that I would be understood. I received very kind pms of support from people that DID understand but were wary of delving into the madness of that thread.

But thank you, thank you for re hashing this for me. I'd just love another argument about how anti woman I am.

If you didn't want it brought up again, why did you bring it up again?

[happy atheist]

So it's banter now, not irony? Honestly, you still seem to be changing your argument every time you post.

It wasn't just the "same three attackers" who responded to your other thread. At least a dozen separate people chimed in and commented not just on the sexist things you were saying, but also on the way you changed your argument and contradicted yourself every other post. Also, the thread wasn't all about you... the furore died down after a while and the topic moved onto several pages about gun possession and law, until you popped up again and turned the spotlight back on yourself.

You weren't being attacked for being "honest and upfront and doing the very best with [your] life". You were being called out on some fairly bizarre posting on a particular topic that you introduced to a particular thread.

If you don't want to re-hash history then don't try to re-write it.

You're being awfully pedantic. I think you know exactly what Irishy is trying to express and you're taking great glee in arguing definitions.

[Guest Anonymous]

Having read and re-read some of the posts to which I referred, I genuinely think Irishy sometimes changes her story when challenged and I have responded because I have found it so frustrating. Words have meanings and it is hard to communicate if we don't share them. I have quoted the things I have mentioned because I am not keen on jumping on a particular bandwagon without providing evidence to back up what I am saying.

I feel exercised about this, because while, for example, I don't particularly agree with FG on the abuse/abuser issue, I don't find her to be a bully or attacker as Irishy seemed to suggest by bringing in her experience of that other post.

If you want to attribute other motivation to my posts, go ahead. Speculation is part of what we do here. I respect that you are willing to share your thoughts on what I have said.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sometimes I think it really is understanding or misunderstanding. I have no issue I kind of 'get' what Irishy says. In fact I hear it in an Irish accent. Therefore for me I do not view it as anniec does. FG is like a dog with a bone and I certainly do not mean that in any way but complimentary. I suppose it can appear badgering at times, but in other areas it gets to the root of some issues. Bully no. My perceptions of others are just that. Mine. They may not be accurate and quite possibly the person involved might be like 'WHAT, no way I'm like that.' It's not an exact science this internet malarkey.

So many cultures. So many personalities. So many degrees of humour. So many strong views. It will of course come down to misunderstanding at times. But I would still say that is no excuse to become ill-mannered or personal. But that's just my take. I've made my fair few posts which I had to explain, it can be exhausting. Especially if somebody deliberately chooses to act obtuse. That just makes it all the harder. Just like cherry picking quotes etc. It's pretty stupid.